SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Looks good, Joe. Haven't looked at the save yet, but screenshot begs question of whether we can successfully chariot rush Lisbon. Thoughts on that?

 

[pigswill]

Joao must have BW to be running slavery but no metal units yet might suggest no copper so chariot rush could be an option. It would certainly be a whole new strategy and we'd have to refigure a bunch of stuff.

Worker steal is an option not a pre-req for victory so can be omitted. Certainly the elaborate micro is based on only one worker.

Joao looks to have one site east of Lisbon, maybe he'll head north after that so have to be mindful of Portugese fur.

I'm thinking that delaying alphabet and Sorbonne in favour of earlier expansion remains a viable alternative.

 

[Jersey Joe]

While redoing the test game, I noticed that the map is flat. Lisbon is at x=2, so there are only 2 tiles to the west of Lisbon. In the new test Game I am making all tiles at x=0,y=?? Ocean. Lisbon has a harbor.

Also, the yellow border is likely Egypt (about the correct location). With the pyramids Egypt's culture is close to 450.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

While redoing the test game, I noticed that the map is flat.

Good catch. Well, Circumnavigation does not exist on this map. Also, Distance Maintenance Costs are reduced relative to a Cylindrical map.

Lisbon has a harbor.

I was wondering what that was. A Great Merchant Trade Mission would therefore offer a bit more Gold by spreading in Lisbon, although not nearly as much as a City that is far away from us.

With the pyramids Egypt's culture is close to 450.

All the more reason to be extremely careful about where we explore within Lisbon's Cultural Borders, as 500 Culture = another Cultural Border expansion for a City.

whether we can successfully chariot rush Lisbon. Thoughts on that?

Without Bronze Working, it takes 8 turns to build a Chariot out of either of our Cities.

I'd advise patience. The sooner that we get to Alphabet, the sooner that Chariot-rushing actually becomes a viable option.

It could also be worth it to let Joao settle another City or two for us, rather than throwing a stack of Chariots at a holed-up stack of 3+ Archers.

I'd probably still wait for Horse Archers (although you mix in Chariots with Horse Archers in case of Axemen defenders being the last City Defenders--a difference from Vanilla, since in BtS, Chariots get a 100% bonus against Axemen when attacking Axemen, but not when defending from Axemen), thinking that we'd lose fewer of them, so each Unit could help with capturing multiple Cities, instead of just 1 City.


When it comes to Civ 4, it's very easy to look at the current situation and say "if only I had such and such an army, I'd pwn that AI," only to be disappointed that when you finally build that army and arrive with it, finding that the AI is much better defended.

Outside of a crapshot 4-Warrior-rush, we wouldn't realistically have been able to attack before there's an Archer is Lisbon, and we didn't know that the AIs wouldn't have Archers.

It was odd that Frederick had a couple of Warriors before building an Archer, so maybe the AIs didn't start with Archery.

Joao looks to have one site east of Lisbon, maybe he'll head north after that so have to be mindful of Portugese fur.

The more Cities that a nearby AI settles for us, the better.

I'm thinking that delaying alphabet and Sorbonne in favour of earlier expansion remains a viable alternative.

Would you still have that opinion if you knew that Joao has Archery? Well, I can confirm for you that Joao has Archery.

In the test game, on Turn 31, if we know 3 AIs who know Archery and we select Archery as our tech, we will make 1 less Flask than we would make in the real game by researching Archery (using visual comparison of screenshots of the tech progress bar found at the top middle of the main game screen).

If, in the test game, we know 4 AIs who know Archery, we will make exactly the same number of Flasks as in the real game when researching Archery.

So, perhaps the AIs did start with Archery and just didn't start with Archers. Or, maybe only the 2 nearest AIs didn't start with Archers, as Stalin sure seemed to have a reasonably-quick Archer if he's already exploring with one.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I believe Stalin started with the 3 cities. So how fast does he have to build archers to use 1 to explore?
Also, 1 of the AI's (Stalin?) either started with a large army, knowledge of a few military techs or some combination or units and techs.

Maybe the AI's close to us started with warriors to have someone available to guard their workers.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So how fast does he have to build archers to use 1 to explore?

I suppose that it doesn't matter, since all of the AIs whom we have met know Archery and we've seen Archers from 2 out of 3 AIs whose units we have seen.

The map was counter-Warrior-rush, likely by design, as there wasn't enough early production with so many Grassland squares to even pull off a Warrior rush.

We have to expect that all of the competition will be doing Horse Archer rushes (or something even smarter--a Knight sweep of the map? Capture The Pyramids and settle an African City with Ivory and do War Elephants + Cats?), so we'll have to pull ahead in other ways while also involving a military approach into our plans.


Does anyone have any concerns with the movements that I suggested for our units in the short term and if so, what are the concerns and/or what would you suggest doing differently?


As of Turn 33, we will incur Maintenance of 1 Gold per turn.

As of Turn 40, our Maintenance will go up to 2 Gold per turn.

So, that's 7 * 1 + 11 * 2 = 7 + 22 = 29 Gold

In the test game, we get 0 overflow Flasks from Fishing, and we have the same amount of Flasks in the real game as in the test game, so I'm assuming that the same will hold true in the real game, meaning that we won't have a chance to benefit by combining overflow Flasks with earned Flasks on the turn after learning Fishing by being at a 100% Science Rate.

But, assuming that we might get overflow Flasks on Alphabet, we may want to be at 100% Science for 1 turn after learning Alphabet, so let's plan for an extra 2 Gold, meaning needing 31 Gold.

To maintain the efficient Binary Research (please speak up if you don't know why we should do our best to run Binary Research as much as possible in BtS), we'll need to be at a 0% Science Rate on one of Turn 32 (+14 Gold) or Turn 33 (+16 Gold, as long as we don't let the City Governor foolishly work the Unpastured G Cow in City 2 on Turn 33--we should be working the Fur in City 2 until the second G Cow gets Pastured).

On Turn 36, when we're working the G Cow in City 2 and Paris steals back the Fur, we're still only making +16 Gold at a 0% Science Rate.

As of Turn 42, we'd only make +15 Gold at a 0% Science Rate.

But, as of Turn 43, we'd make +17 Gold at a 0% Science Rate.

So, I tried out the following:
Turn 32 = 0% Science Rate, leaving us needing 31 - 14 = 17 Gold
Turn 33 = 100% Science Rate
Turn 43 = 0% Science Rate, earning us the 17 Gold
Turn 44 = 100% Science Rate
Turn 46 = City 2 switches its 3rd citizen from G For to G Riv, giving us Alphabet in 5 turns, Paris' Settler in 8 turns, and City 2's Settler in 9 turns, with 14 Gold in the bank... I guess that I miscounted and we end up with 4 Gold on Turn 51, but we also end up with 0 overflow Flasks, which seems fine.

But, it will also be less micro intensive if simply earn less Gold and do:
Turn 32 = 0% Science Rate for +14 Gold
Turn 33 = 0% Science Rate for +16 Gold
Turn 34 = 100% Science Rate

On Turn 43, we could dump Hammers into a Warrior in City 2 if we're confident that we'll complete the Warrior after building the Settler there, which also leaves us the option of switching to finishing off that Warrior in case of an emergency, but forces us to finish the Warrior after the Settler if we don't want the Hammers to vanish.

Actually, it looks as though we won't even need to work a G Riv square for a Turn-51 Alphabet if we use the Turn 32 + Turn 33 0% Science Rate approach.

Unfortunately, we can't come anywhere close to Turn-50 Alphabet, even by working 2 G Riv squares as of Turn 45, so we might as well stick with working the G For squares for extra overflow Hammers from our Settlers and a 1-turn-faster Settler out of Paris.


Does anyone need some help putting these bits and pieces together as a PPP or should it be relatively easy to gather the details together now that they've been laid out across the span of a couple of messages, albeit scattered about?

 

[Jersey Joe]

If anyone is interested, here is a new test game as of T31-2760BC.
This game uses a flat map.
Lisbon is at the correct location and Joao was switched from Judaism to Christianity.
I gave Lisbon a harbor but not Compass.
Egypt has been relocated so they are the yellow border we see.
Russia was added by removing the Mongols. Russia has 3 cities all are Jewish.
I added 2 warriors to Germany and warriors to Portugal.

Please let me know if I missed anything.

 

[pigswill]

Neighbours with archery and slavery can of course whip out 1 archer per turn when threatened making rushes that bit more difficult.

 

[BSPollux]

Important detail:

There is a naming mistake on the sign telling you you found "the Orient". Somewhere between map version I changed it, but that change didn't get carried over to the final version. If you find it, you will recognize it anyway. There are no other signs you could confuse it with.

I will post this in every thread to make sure everyone sees.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Please let me know if I missed anything.

Well, in the real game, Germany's Corn/Wheat has already been Farmed. We can tell by hovering our mouse's cursor over top of that square and seeing the hover text not saying "Requires: Farm."

I believe that there's also a Forest which grew during pigswill's turnset 1 NW + 1 W of Paris, which was good luck, so we'll need his luck for some future turnsets.


We do have some key micro to take care of in the next few turns... first, Settler 2 moves only after Worker 1 has Roaded, then Warrior 1 only moves to the western G Cow after City 2 has been settled so that we can start Pasturing immediately on Turn 33.

A 0% Science Rate on Turns 32 and 33 with a 100% Science Rate on Turn 34.

Opening Borders with Joao on Turn 31 and Opening Borders with Frederick on Turn 32.

Picking Alphabet as our tech on Turn 32 (should be obvious).

If we like the idea of the Missionary going to explore the north coast of Lisbon's Culture, we can even wake him up on Turn 31 and head him there right away, as Worker 1 is currently spawn-busting the G Stone square. In so doing, we should leave Warrior 2 in place just outside of Lisbon's Cultural Borders.

We will still want to make sure to be careful how we move our Missionary, so that if we do get a chance to steal a Worker from Joao, we won't have first moved our Missionary. I.e. Move the Missionary as one of the last units to move each turn, rather than one of the first units to move, so that if we declare war and get teleported, we'll still have the Missionary's movement points available to get him away from any danger that he might teleport next to.

We also need to get Warrior 1 onto Berlin's Cow, probably by going 1 SW G Riv > 1 S G Riv Corn/Wheat > 1 S G Riv Cow. From there, we'll want to evaluate the situation to determine whether we'd have a chance to steal a Worker in the short term. If not, then we'd head to the north-west of Berlin to camp out the G For that is 2 NW + 1 N of Berlin, probably making it to the GH Riv For that is 1 NW of Berlin on the way there so that we can spot any nearby Barb Units before walking adjacent to said Barb Units. We have to resist any urge to head further southward than 2 SE of Berlin, as then we'd meet the Light Blue AI.

The Scout is doing a good job of staying where it is currently located. Sending him any closer to the east would mean meeting the Light-Blue AI prematurely, as per the test game. Light Blue will probably be one of our medium-term trading partners when we're taking the Cities of our nearby neighbours, especially with Light Blue having Gems available to improve his/her tech research, so delaying meeting that AI is great, allowing us to get him/her up to Pleased on the turn that we meet him/her, reducing the chance of him/her duplicating our research on Animal Husbandry and Writing, and not increasing that AI's WFYABTA counter against us.

Also, we need to be careful not to meet the Yellow AI.

Further, once the Cow gets Pastured on Turn 36, we need to work it and have Paris work the Fur again.

At around Turn 36, we need to bring Warrior 2 back to Paris.


So, there are a lot of moving factors and important details to keep track of for Turns 31 through 36.

After that, the micro gets a lot less intense, with the main details being working the Fish that we net, switching from a Warrior (or a Library, but probably a Warrior) in City 2 two turns after starting work on building it when City 2 hits Size 3, and us needing to remember to hire 2 Scientists when we complete our Library on Turn 46.


Jersey Joe, are you still up for playing? With so many things going on, we don't have to do it all in one shot--even playing 2 or 3 turns and then getting feedback to make sure that we've got all of the important details covered would be a safe way to proceed.

Whoever plays should document the needed tasks in a way that's easy for that person to follow and definitely should try out their plan in the test game first, particularly the Worker 1 + Settler 2 micro, as it's easy to do those actions in the wrong order (I've messed up those details in the test game a couple of times myself, when not having a PPP to follow while testing).

 

[neilmeister]

Checking in again after my work trip.... lots to catch up on...


edit: mainly 2 things:

1. When did the site go all orange?
2. Can we warrior/chariot rush Joao?

 

[Jersey Joe]

Jersey Joe, are you still up for playing? With so many things going on, we don't have to do it all in one shot--even playing 2 or 3 turns and then getting feedback to make sure that we've got all of the important details covered would be a safe way to proceed.

If no one else volunteers in the next 24 hours or so. I will play at least till city 2 is settled and worker is pasturing the cow.

Well, in the real game, Germany's Corn/Wheat has already been Farmed. We can tell by hovering our mouse's cursor over top of that square and seeing the hover text not saying "Requires: Farm."

I believe that there's also a Forest which grew during pigswill's turnset 1 NW + 1 W of Paris, which was good luck, so we'll need his luck for some future turnsets.

Also, I forgot to set all EPs to Churchill when I redid the game on a flat map. Further with more fog gazing it looks like Joao also has a lighthouse built.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

1. When did the site go all orange?

A few days ago.

To fix that ugly mess:
1. Go to the options page
2. Scroll way down to the bottom (or Ctrl + f and search for "Forum Skin")
3. In the Forum Skin drop-down list, choose "-- Pale White"
4. Click on the Save Changes button at the bottom of the page
5. Reload any other browser windows that you have open to a webpage on the forums
6. Breathe a sigh of sweet relief

2. Can we warrior/chariot rush Joao?

Joao has Archery and is running Slavery, so Warrior are out.

It would take us roughly this many more turns to get 2 Chariots: 1 turn (finish the Fur Road) + 6 turns (Horse Pasture + Road) + 8 turns (building 1 Chariot per City without Slavery takes about that long) = 15 turns to build 2 Chariots. That's not really a rush anymore.

But, if we wait until after Alphabet, theoretically we could whip out some Chariots. I'm probably still rather see 6.6 Strength (assuming that we'd also build at least one Barracks) Horse Archers who ignore First Strikes than 4 Strength Chariots who don't ignore First Strikes, as our Horse Archers would get re-use, and we'd give the AIs some time to REX.

What we COULD do is, after Alphabet, build a couple of Chariots to keep the nearby AIs' Strategic Resources pillaged, so that the AIs will spam Archers (due to remaining at war) and Settlers (due to building more Units than Wonders while at war), without wasting Hammers on Great Wall Failure Gold that we probably wouldn't be able to trade for in time to be of use.

We could also gift Masonry to Joao should we manage to get it in trade and leave him alone, hoping that he builds The Great Lighthouse for us, seeing as how Jersey Joe has noticed that Lisbon already has a Lighthouse. It will depend upon how much production Lisbon has as to whether that's feasible (an AI will only start on a build item if it will take them, I believe, roughly 17 turns or less to complete it).

If no one else volunteers in the next 24 hours or so. I will play at least till city 2 is settled and worker is pasturing the cow.

Sounds good. That's the trickiest part of the micro. I suggest that you plan to play those couple of turns then, as we're short on players who have time to dive right in, and you're already familiar with the micro. Thanks for carrying us through this tricky time in the game!

Also, I forgot to set all EPs to Churchill when I redid the game on a flat map.

No worries. In the real game, it's easy enough to press Ctrl + e to see how many more EPs we would need earn before we can see what Churchill is researching (although we'd also have to project ahead Churchill's spending and thus the increased cost of passive Espionage's effects, probably by checking it out via the earlier test game). At this early stage of the game, it's not really an important detail, anyway, as we're not going to change our research path, regardless of what Churchill is teching currently.

I believe that we can all agree that you're doing a fabulous job with the cartography!

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Thanks for all your efforts to keep this going guys. I am travelling for work a lot at the moment so can't play any turns but from next Tuesday should be online a lot more to contribute thoughts etc.

Thanks again for all your efforts.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Argument against hasty chariot rush is powerful. Do like idea of building a couple at some point to pillage metal resources prior to war.

Pleased that Joe is willing to carry on.

 

[neilmeister]

OK, wasn't 100% serious about a rush on Joao, just opened the save and it looked juicy.

I think I will wait until after Joe's set before I start doing anything, as that part is already agreed.

Good luck!

 

[Jersey Joe]

I will still wait for around 24 hours total, but it looks like I am elected so here is a ppp.

T31-2760BC
Offer Open Borders to Joao. (Why wait till next turn for Fredrick? Why not offer open Borders to Stalin?)
Missionary moves 1SW Cow; 1S G

T32-2720BC
Fishing > Alphabet
Settler > Library
Science Rate 0% (14 gpt)
Open Borders Fredrick (Carefully explore not getting to close to light blue border)
Worker roads fur, then
Settler moves 1SW; 1NW; 1SW G For (1N of Cow)
Missionary moves 1S G Hill
citizen works wheat
citizen works cow
citizen works fur

T33-2680BC
Science Rate 0% (16 gpt)
Orleans Founded, then
Worker 1SW; 1S Cow and pastures
Missionary moves 1SE G Hill
...Paris
citizen works wheat
citizen works cow
citizen works deer
...Orleans
Starts building work boat
citizen works fur

T34-2640
Science Rate 100%
Missionary moves 1S G Hill (with our warrior)
...Paris
citizen works wheat
citizen works cow
citizen works deer
...Orleans
citizen works fur

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Offer Open Borders to Joao. (Why wait till next turn for Fredrick? Why not offer open Borders to Stalin?)

They are Worst Enemies of each other.

Before we get +1 after 25 turns, we could get -1 after 10 turns of continuous Open Borders by having to refuse to stop trading with the other one's Worst Enemy.

Our Warrior can't move into Frederick's Cultural Borders until next turn.

We may decide to cancel Open Borders with Frederick after 10 turns (well, after 11 turns if we Open Borders next turn) so that Stalin won't ask us to stop trading with Frederick.

If you don't have any active trades (Open Borders is a trade) with an AI's Worst Enemy, that AI won't ever ask you to Stop Trading with their Worst Enemy, so then you can't get -1 Diplo Attitude penalties for refusing to trade with an AI's Worst Enemy. What would be even worse is agreeing not to trade--an AI will randomly forget or not forget and I played a game where Alex didn't talk with me for more than 150 turns because I agreed to an Ancient Era request to stop trading with Alex.

The only penalty for cancelling Open Borders is that an AI will need to randomly forget (a 1 in 10 chance each turn) that you Closed Borders with it. There is no Diplomatic Attitude penalty for Closing Borders, other than removing any accumulated turns toward the +1 Diplo Attitude after 25 turns of continuous Open Borders, which isn't really a penalty and just us missing out on a potential benefit.

The -1 Diplo Attitude for refusing to trade with an AI's Worst Enemy is a penalty, though, as that -1 sticks around for a long time.

I'm also not too hung up about 1 turn sooner of Opening Borders. If it's easier to remember to Open Borders with Frederick on Turn 31, feel free to do so, but I think that you'll remember easily enough on Turn 32 when you want to move into his Cultural Borders.

Open Borders Fredrick (Carefully explore not getting to close to light blue border)

I'm not too particular about precisely how you move Warrior 1, as long as we're arriving on the G Riv Cow on Turn 34.

Settler moves 1SW; 1NW; 1SW G For (1N of Cow)

Do it however you feel comfortable moving... if you normally right-click auto-move on a square to move a unit a few squares away all at once, feel free to do so. If you normally move your units one square at a time, then do it that way. Do whatever feels natural to you and how you've practiced in the test game.

T34-2640
Missionary moves 1S G Hill (with our warrior)

If there isn't a Worker visible to steal, we could even move our Missionary 1 SW P Riv For.

If at any point there is a Worker to steal from Joao, then we'd abort moving our Missionary.


Another piece of advice is to leave at least one unit with movement points available before doing your Cities' citizen assignments, particularly for Turn 33 when Orleans first works the Fur. I can't tell whether you'd be doing that (say, with waiting to Skip the Scout's turn until after doing everything else), but it's easy to advance the turn accidentally once all units have moved by knocking the Spacebar key or even the second Enter key beside a mouse on a long keyboard for a right-handed mouser. Or, maybe I'm just a klutz and I'm the only one whose advanced a turn accidentally.


Feel free to pick a creative name for City 2, if you'd like. City naming is one of the fun rewards of taking a turnset.


The PPP sounds great. You've got this one solidly!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Carry on, Joe.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Green from me.