SGOTM 23 - Xteam

[Jersey Joe]

CP play as many turns as you like just tell me when it is my turn.

Dhoom, I like the idea of short term planning/turns, as long as we are more proactive than reactive.

Is the settler build a little premature? We do not have spies in place. Why not have Lyons and XO Cognac build Spies?
What about Paris builds/whips stable instead of settler? York could build a settler instead of worker.

 

[Cactus Pete]

CP play as many turns as you like just tell me when it is my turn. Okay, unless someone else volunteers.

Is the settler build a little premature? We do not have spies in place. Why not have Lyons and XO Cognac build Spies?
What about Paris builds/whips stable instead of settler? York could build a settler instead of worker.

What about just building the settler and reducing unhappiness.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Indeed, what are the odds that he will attack 2 units rather than move to pillage the iron?

AI Units have specific Missions. They switch Missions inside of their own Cities. The odds that this Axeman will start Pillaging are probably zero, given that this particular Military Unit chased our Warrior.

what are the odds of his winning without damage?

Well, we have 79% odds of losing a Unit that we really want to keep, since it's currently our only healed Chariot, and our Chariots are our best counter to Frederick's Axemen--they are more valuable than our more-expensive Horse Archers when attacking Frederick's Axemen.

Frederick has more than a 21% chance to take 2 hits of damage or less in the battle.

Frederick does not have a bonus to iBaseAttackOddsChange, so it will be up to a random number dice roll as to whether he has sufficient courage to attack in the second battle.

Assuming that our Chariot damages him twice, and he takes a Combat II Promotion, he'll be at 4.2 / 5 Health and will have just under 30% odds of defeating our Horse Archer. Those odds would be sufficient for some dice roll values to convince him to attack.

Even if he healed, instead, we wouldn't have great odds with our Horse Archer attacking against his defending, healing Axeman--we really want Chariots for attacking his Axeman, but we would have lost our Chariot in this scenario and all of our other Chariots are too wounded to attack the Axeman soon. We also would likely have taken the Cease Fire option off of the table just by losing 1 battle, as we have incredibly low War Success (we've only captured 1 Worker and haven't even won a battle), but he would then have War Success from having won a battle.

isn't it pretty likely that our HA will win and get its own valuable promotion?

I would not consider the loss of a Chariot to be a good exchange for a single Promotion on our Horse Archer.

To be honest, I am hopeful that we'll find Hamburg defended only by Axemen, which we saw a lot of times in the test game, at which point we'd have our Chariots amphibiously attack and capture the City.

Horse Archers are there in case he has Archer defenders, too.

Horse Archers don't actually get great odds against Axemen. You lose a Horse Archer in a 1-on-1 battle reasonably often.
Combat I Horse Archer versus a Combat I Axeman: just over 73% odds of winning (more than a 20% chance of losing your Horse Archer)
Unpromoted Chariot versus a Combat I Axeman: just over 90% odds of winning (less than a 10% chance of losing your Chariot)

What Horse Archers do for us is if we have many of them attacking a City, we can wound any of the defenders (Archers, Axemen, and Spearmen) such that if we have enough attakers, we'll capture the City, no matter what kind of battle losses that the random number generator forces upon us.

So, given a choice, in a 1-on-1 fight, no, I generally wouldn't attack an Axeman with a Horse Archer, and would wish that'd spent 20 Hammers on something else and had a Chariot handy.

We'd avoid a cease fire and be in pretty good shape to attack Hamburg fairly soon.

We'd be in equally good shape (or even better shape*) to attack Hamburg fairly soon if we took a Cease Fire, too.

* If Frederick's Units head toward Alex, we'll be in better shape by taking a brief Cease Fire.

A Cease Fire means that we can redeclare war at a time of our convenience, but the AI doesn't expect it and acts as though it got a Peace Treaty with us in terms of how it reacts to us after Cease Firing.

If we do take a cease fire, I'd opt for going after Lisbon next, rather than have to defend against a potentially powerful German counterattack on Hamburg and perhaps Orleans too.

We shouldn't have to defend Orleans if we leave it empty of Units.

Assuming that we have roughly 7 turns of Cease Fire, Frederick's army will have been sent toward Alex.

If we're clever and can get at least 2 healed Chariots quickly into position near to Frederick's likely-soon-to-be-founded City, which only has 3 Axemen nearby, we could try to destroy 2 Axemen with near impunity. With him having 1 defender in his new City, he wouldn't have much of an army to go after Hamburg once we reboard our Galleys and take Hamburg.

Rather stay on the offensive.

That's the plan. I don't see us bunkering down inside of Hamburg. Axemen which come out of Berlin toward Hamburg can be attacked by our Chariots. If there are Spearmen in a stack, we could try baiting one with a sacrificial Chariot (which might even be able to stay out of attack range and still lure a Spearman) so that our other Chariots can take down the Axemen and our Axemen can take down the Spearman.

With good use of our Units, we'll get enough War Success for a reasonably-quick second Cease Fire, since getting a large amount of War Success and the AI not getting much War Success leads to the AI wanting to talk about ending the war sooner than it normally would.

Why does he need to be loaded on and tie the galley to London?

It would be nice to have a Military Police Unit inside of London when London comes out of City Revolt.

I proposed the Axeman, but we switched it to the Chariot so that the Axeman could go exploring sooner.

With a Cease Fire with Frederick and plans to attack him after a few turns, isn't it good to have a Galley which can quickly take the London and York Chariots at a moment's notice and sail them eastward by 2 turns? This use of our Galley seems good, but if you have a better proposal for using all 4 of our Galleys, I'm listening.

If we move the Chariot into London but don't have him board the Galley this turn, he'll lose this turn of healing and he'll lose a future turn of healing when he boards the Galley. If we move the Chariot into London and have the Chariot board the Galley on the same turn as moving, he'll only lose 1 turn of healing and will be healed plus ready to join battle 1 turn sooner.

We may end up wanting that extra turn if we see an Archer heading toward Frederick's newly-founded City and we choose to attack that City's Axemen with our Chariots before the Archer arrives there.

What about just building the settler and reducing unhappiness.

As Folket pointed out to me repeatedly (because I needed to have my head shaken repeatedly ), doing so is very inefficient. We're about to regain a Happiness due to a point of Whipping Unhappiness wearing off. Let's "spend" it on a 3-pop-whipping action, especially now that we only really have 3 to 5 useful items for our citizens to work (Wheat, Deer, and Fur when Orleans is using the Cow and XO Cognac is using the Copper), since hiring Scientists won't do much for us after we have our Great Scientist... it would be far better to turn those Scientist citizens into efficient production than to work G For squares with additional Happy citizens, for example.

We can hire more Specialists later in the game when we don't have such high production needs and can do so more efficiently, either with Representation's bonus Flasks or Pacifism's bonus GPP, and we probably wouldn't do it in Paris, where we'd want to be working Cottages at that stage of the game, so GPPs earned in Paris may never get used to create another Great Person (and thus may have no value).

Is the settler build a little premature?

I'm actually thinking of settling not only 3 S of Paris but also to the north-west of Paris (to score the Fish that London's Cultural Borders stole from us early on in the game) for two Cottage-sharing Cities.

It just so happens that it's convenient to 3-pop-whip in Paris at this time.

The nice thing about getting those Cities up sooner rather than later is that they can start using their Happiness for Whipping... settling 3 S of Paris prematurely allows us to keep 1-pop-whipping Chariots off of Paris' Wheat when Paris has too much Unhappiness to make proper use of the Food. We don't have to gift that City until we want to gift it and can be whipping out of it until we're ready to gift it, and gifting a City will also reset its Whipping Unhappiness to zero.

I like the idea of short term planning/turns, as long as we are more proactive than reactive.

Being proactive means us having general goals in alignment, which from what I currently gather is to:
i. Take Hamburg and hopefully a new City that Frederick settles, plus possibly amphibiously capturing a Worker or two
ii. Explore a bit eastward with our Scout and Galley to see whether Stalin has any nearby coastal Cities that we could snipe in a mini war
iii. Decide whether to go after Stalin or Joao based on the info that our Spy and Scout reveal
iv. Keep REXing while spamming troops in the short term
v. Once we have enough troops, spam Spies
vi. Teching is Currency -> tech/trade up to and including Priesthood -> hopefully trade for Monarchy -> try to steal Mathematics + Code of Laws -> tech Civil Service

But, of course, we also should be willing to be reactive to opportunities that fit within our plans, such as re-declaring war on Frederick earlier than planned if a good situation presents itself.

And, the plan itself can change, when someone comes up with a better idea.

What about Paris builds/whips stable instead of settler?

For a Charismatic Leader, unintuitively, Stables are less useful than for other Leaders. It's so easy to get the second Promotion from a single fight that this Building's usefulness is quite limited.

To be honest, I doubt the idea of Paris putting Hammers into a Horse Archer and we might just be better putting 2 turns worth of Hammers into an Axeman, which will get finished from overflow Hammers from whipping a Settler. That said, I'm okay with putting the Hammers into the Horse Archer in case we decide to re-declare war on Frederick sooner than planned, so that we can be 1 turn closer to completing an additional Horse Archer on a moment's notice.

Paris can't afford to 2-pop-whip very much unless we get lucky and by capturing Hamburg, we end up getting Happiness Resources in trade from Stalin.

 

[Cactus Pete]

AI Units have specific Missions. They switch Missions inside of their own Cities. The odds that this Axeman will start Pillaging are probably zero, given that this particular Military Unit chased our Warrior. Understood.

I would not consider the loss of a Chariot to be a good exchange for a single Promotion on our Horse Archer.That's a gross misrepresentation. We're taking an 80% risk of loosing a chariot and a rather small chance of loosing a HA in return for two chances (one of only 20%, the other, contingent on the first, of less certain odds but certainly in our favor) of killing an axe and being able to attack Hamburg without having to cease fire. The HA promotion is just a small bonus. Appreciate the value of chariots against HAs, but a chariot can only kill one axe before healing, so we would be getting pretty good use out of the one now available. Moreover, they're cheap.

* If Frederick's Units head toward Alex, we'll be in better shape by taking a brief Cease Fire. We shouldn't have to defend Orleans if we leave it empty of Units. Good points.

If we're clever and can get at least 2 healed Chariots quickly into position near to Frederick's likely-soon-to-be-founded City Where is it that you think he'll found the city?, which only has 3 Axemen nearby, we could try to destroy 2 Axemen with near impunity. With him having 1 defender in his new City How confident are you that there will only be one defender and not something like a spear and an archer?, he wouldn't have much of an army to go after Hamburg once we reboard our Galleys and take Hamburg.

That's the plan. I don't see us bunkering down inside of Hamburg.
With good use of our Units, we'll get enough War Success for a reasonably-quick second Cease Fire, since getting a large amount of War Success and the AI not getting much War Success leads to the AI wanting to talk about ending the war sooner than it normally would. So your thinking after about how many turns?

It would be nice to have a Military Police Unit inside of London when London comes out of City Revolt. Of course.
With a Cease Fire with Frederick and plans to attack him after a few turns, isn't it good to have a Galley which can quickly take the London and York Chariots at a moment's notice and sail them eastward by 2 turns? This use of our Galley seems good, but if you have a better proposal for using all 4 of our Galleys, I'm listening. I would argue that an unloaded chariot in London with a galley sitting on the fish NE of the city is safer regarding any English threats. Whether the chariot is loaded onto the galley or not does not effect how quickly he can be unloaded in Orleans and advance. That will take 2 turns either way. As you note, chariots are not good defenders. Jumping off the galley into Orleans with no ability to move is not likely to be more useful than being unloaded in Orleans the next turn with the ability to move from there.

If we move the Chariot into London but don't have him board the Galley this turn, he'll lose this turn of healing and he'll lose a future turn of healing when he boards the Galley. If we move the Chariot into London and have the Chariot board the Galley on the same turn as moving, he'll only lose 1 turn of healing and will be healed plus ready to join battle 1 turn sooner. That's fine, then once healed -- unless your speculated archer shows up or there is some other emergency -- unload him and free the galley.

We may end up wanting that extra turn if we see an Archer heading toward Frederick's newly-founded City and we choose to attack that City's Axemen with our Chariots before the Archer arrives there. Don't think there is an extra turn to be had for this purpose. You're starting to make a case for chopping a chariot in London, though.

As Folket pointed out to me repeatedly (because I needed to have my head shaken repeatedly ), doing so is very inefficient. We're about to regain a Happiness due to a point of Whipping Unhappiness wearing off. Let's "spend" it on a 3-pop-whipping action, especially now that we only really have 3 to 5 useful items for our citizens to work (Wheat, Deer, and Fur when Orleans is using the Cow and XO Cognac is using the Copper), since hiring Scientists won't do much for us after we have our Great Scientist... it would be far better to turn those Scientist citizens into efficient production than to work G For squares with additional Happy citizens, for example. Fine with that.

I'm actually thinking of settling not only 3 S of Paris but also to the north-west of Paris (to score the Fish that London's Cultural Borders stole from us early on in the game) for two Cottage-sharing Cities.

Instinctively resist that. We need units . . . now.

BTW, appreciate the continuing education on comparative value of promotions. Based on what you've shown, looks like CR promotions should be better when dealing with Longbows. True?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Where is it that you think he'll found the city?

Frederick has founded his City 3 consistently in the test game on the G Riv For that is 1 S of the G Sheep (1 NE + 1 N of the GH Riv Iron). In the real game, we managed to scare his Settler Party away and it didn't settle there. In the test game, with Frederick having 3 other Cities, he still consistently picks that same spot for his City 4.

It seems that the extra Food from the Fish, even with the City not being coastal, is too attractive of a bonus for him--AIs prefer settling at City locations with relatively high Food, even though a better location to settle for using the nearby land would be 1 S of there.

We need units . . . now.

Which is precisely why I'd rather that we focus on fighting battles that matter (i.e. battles to capture Cities) and try to refrain from fighting other battles except when the odds highly favour us.

We've got to make a choice:
A] Cease Fire with Frederick
or
B] Don't Cease Fire with Frederick

A] offers:
A guarantee that we'll have more Military Units (which seems to align with "We need units . . . now.")
Temporarily getting Trade Network access with Stalin until we redeclare war on Frederick
Frederick being more likely to send newly-built Units toward Alex

B] offers:
The opportunity to Cease Fire on the turn that we capture Hamburg


Trade Network access with Stalin could mean additional Foreign Trade Routes if we need them (he will Open Borders at Annoyed or above). Trade Network access with Stalin could also mean trading for Happiness Resources (he will trade them at Cautious or above).

Frederick has one of the lowest iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold values at 6, meaning that he'll talk very quickly after we declare war on him.

In the test game, he will talk with us 6 turns after we declare war on him if no War Success is obtained by either side.

If we capture a City, lose 3 Units, and kill 3 of his Units, he will talk with us 5 turns after we declare war on him.

In a slightly older version of the test game, when I tried Cease Firing and amphibiously capturing Hamburg, he didn't even come after Hamburg in retaliation, even though he had a stack of Units inside of Berlin.

How confident are you that there will only be one defender and not something like a spear and an archer?

I have no clue what he's going to have in Hamburg in the real game. But, it's a "far away" City for him relative to his war opponents (us and Alex), which BtS AIs tend to keep relatively empty of defenders. Nearly every time that I looked in the test game, Hamburg only had 1 Axeman defending it, or 1 Axeman plus a newly-built Unit.

So, I only expect Hamburg to be lightly defended.

If it's defended by an Archer, it won't be as strong as Churchill's Protective Archers, so any 4 Units should do, although I'd probably want to go in with at least 5 Units to be sure that we can both capture and defend the City.

If it's defended by a Spearman, then we could just wait for our Axemen to arrive (one is coming out of Lyons soon and one will come out of Paris) or we could just go in with 6 Units.

Jumping off the galley into Orleans with no ability to move is not likely to be more useful than being unloaded in Orleans the next turn with the ability to move from there.

I agree with you, but you're the one who suggested the good idea of Galley chaining.
With only 2 boats in a chain, the York Chariot can move into London and load into the same Galley, and then both the York Chariot and the London Chariot can attack Hamburg within the span of only two turns.

Make that the span of one turn if we use 3 Galleys in the chain.

Every turn that a Unit moves (and loading into a Galley uses up movement points), it can't heal.

The approach that I am suggesting gives us +1 turn of healing.


What we could even do is:
i. Cease Fire
ii. Wait 1 turn to get Open Borders with Frederick when Alex should become his Worst Enemy instead of us being Frederick's Worst Enemy (since Frederick will Open Borders at Annoyed or higher)
iii. Instead of parking Chariot 3 close to Orleans, we send Chariot 3 to reveal the City of Hamburg (we don't need to go inside of the City, just see its contents)

If Hamburg looks vulnerable (defended by only 1 Axeman), we load Chariot 3 plus another nearby Unit (probably an Axeman but maybe a Horse Archer if we don't have our Axeman yet) onto a Galley, then send our Chariots in England by Galley chain, and descend upon Hamburg to attack.

If Hamburg isn't vulnerable, then we can wait to build up more forces.

Not sure what emergency you're anticipating, but that's fine, then once healed unload him and free the galley.

Our Chariots are not meant to remain in England. It's just convenient for them to stay there to heal, since they heal faster while they are in Cities.

If a boat exists in London, the York Chariot can use all of its movement points to arrive in London on any given turn. On that same turn, even though it has zero movement points remaining, it can load into a Galley that is sitting inside of London, then travel as far as 4 more squares on the sea with a 2-Galley chain with the first Galley of the chain starting in London.

If we don't see an opportunity to snipe Hamburg, then our Chariots can act as Military Police Units in London while we build up additional forces until we've got sufficient numbers to take on Hamburg.

BTW, appreciate the continuing education on comparative value of promotions. Based on what you've shown, looks like CR promotions should be better when dealing with Longbows. True?

I've yet to come up with a solid rule and people who have invested more time into the issue than me have posted on the subject on this forum, so the info is out there.

What I can say is that if a breakpoint gets met in terms of the number of hits required to win or lose, then there's more of a significant difference, otherwise the difference tends to be reasonably small.

One example:
Longbowman defender in Berlin with 0% Cultural Defences and no Fortification bonus, City Defence II Promotion (no City Defence I Promotion):
City Raider I + City Raider II Axeman: 5.0 Str vs 9.3 Str, 8 hits for us to win, 4 hits for us to die, 0.74% chance to survive
Combat I + Combat II Axeman: 6.0 Str vs 12.0 Str, 8 hits for us to win, 4 hits for us to die, 0.53% chance to survive

There's not much difference there.

But, with the City Raider Axeman able to meet a breakpoint in terms of the number of hits required to complete the combat, there is more of a difference:
Longbowman defender in Berlin with 0% Cultural Defences and no Fortification bonus, City Defence I Promotion (no City Defence II Promotion):
City Raider I + City Raider II Axeman: 5.0 Str vs 9.0 Str, 7 hits for us to win, 4 hits for us to die, 1.88% chance to survive
Combat I + Combat II Axeman: 6.0 Str vs 11.7 Str, 8 hits for us to win, 4 hits for us to die, 0.59% chance to survive

If the Longbowman is wounded to 4.6 / 6 Health, then both of our Axemen have the same number of hits and the numbers are relatively closer to each other once again:
City Raider I + City Raider II Axeman: 5.0 Str vs 6.88 Str, 6 hits for us to win, 4 hits for us to die, 8.96% chance to survive
Combat I + Combat II Axeman: 6.0 Str vs 8.93 Str, 6 hits for us to win, 4 hits for us to die, 7.14% chance to survive


So, it really is all about the breakpoints for the number of hits.

Sometimes, reducing the defender's Strength (City Raider, Shock, Cover, Formation, etc) can help you to reach a breakpoint. Sometimes, increasing the attacker's Strength (Combat Promotions) can help you to reach a breakpoint. At other times, both Promotions will let you hit the same breakpoints, and still at other times, neither type of Promotion will let you reach a breakpoint.


If you're facing an AI with only Archers and you are Aggressive (i.e. you get Combat I for free) or you are Huayna (who lamely gets Combat I for free on his Quechuas even though he is no longer Aggressive in BtS), then taking Cover is a strong play, as it is equal to City Raider II (25% reduction of an Archer's Strength) when attacking a City, which is better than City Raider I (20% reduction of an Archer's Strength), and it can also be used when the Archer attacks us, and can also be used in offensive battles outside of Cities.

You're starting to make a case for chopping a chariot in London, though.

It's a good idea if we still have a Military Police Unit inside of London, and is still a decent idea if we don't have a Military Police Unit inside of London.

We could make 4 + 20 Hammers when putting 1 turn of Hammers into a Granary and getting our Forest Chop.

We would put in an extra 3 Hammers on the following turn, when we 2-pop-whip our Granary.

On the following turn, we would put in an extra 3 Hammers, which would barely let us complete a Chariot.

But, that's only if we have a Military Police Unit inside of London 4 turns from now. Otherwise, we'd need 1 extra turn to get the necessary Hammers.

So, with a Military Police Unit in London exactly 4 turns from now, that means getting a Chariot in 6 turns from now, or else getting a Chariot in 7 turns from now.

With any luck, we'll have used Chariot 3 (in Orleans now) and our other existing Units to have captured Hamburg by that time. But, if Hamburg is heavily-defended, then such a Chariot will be more useful than an Archer built in London in the short term.


EDIT:

Instinctively resist that. We need units . . . now.

Think about it: 6 turns after having settled a City to the north-west, we'll have a moveable Axeman or Chariot. 4 turns later (after 10 turns), we'll have another moveable Chariot.

Or, after 11 turns, we'll have either:
two moveable Axemen/Spearmen
OR
one moveable Chariot and one moveable Swordsman

REXing when we are low on Happiness is one way to get more Units in the short term, without having to stop working power squares in Paris just to obtain said Units.

With The Great Lighthouse, a coastal City contributes more Commerce to our economy than it costs us Gold in Maintenance. With us completing The Great Lighthouse, now is the perfect time to REX, particularly if we still get whipped Units quickly due to settling a City adjacent to an improved Food Resource.


EDIT 2: If we capture a City, lose 1 Unit, and kill 1 Unit, Frederick will talk with us after only 3 turns of declaring war on him.


EDIT 3:

I would argue that an unloaded chariot in London with a galley sitting on the fish NE of the city is safer regarding any English threats.

After 3 more turns, our Cutural Borders at London will appear and we'll get advance warning of any Galleys that Churchill is sending toward London. I just wanted to make sure that our plan has us uncovering any threatening Galleys over the next 3 turns.

After those turns, we'll have options, such as moving to guard our Fish with a Galley, as you have suggested, or simply deciding to take a Cease Fire with Churchill.

It looks that I was wrong, though, and Woodsman II won't let us move 3 squares in one turn.

So, let's change the Axeman to moving before healing, then he can heal later. He'll heal half of his existing damage each time that he promotes, so he won't be that wounded, and will be in Forests, so he's not going to easily die.


EDIT 4: Lyons' Axeman won't be able to arrive anywhere close to in time to help out with Frederick, so we might as well make it a Chariot. If we keep 1-pop-whipping Chariots out of Lyons, we'll also eventually be able to 1-pop-whip a Galley out of Lyons so that we can send an exploring Unit toward Egypt, to better plan out our attack on Hatty.


EDIT 5: If we want an Axeman, which we definitely do want, in order to help with capturing/holding Hamburg, it will need to come from Paris, and that means not dumping Hammers into a Horse Archer on Turn 75, so that we can actually complete our Axeman on Turn 78 (allowing it to be able to move on Turn 79) after getting whipping overflow Hammers from the Settler.

We would also have to work the Copper on either Turn 77 or Turn 78, but we can figure out that detail for the next turnset.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Frederick has founded his City 3 consistently in the test game on the G Riv For that is 1 S of the G Sheep (1 NE + 1 N of the GH Riv Iron). That's the kind of decision that helps the AI to lose.

Which is precisely why I'd rather that we focus on fighting battles that matter (i.e. battles to capture Cities) and try to refrain from fighting other battles except when the odds highly favour us. We will likely need to kill that axe at some point whether he's defending a city or not, but the probability of such a quick peace with Fred wins the argument for you.

What we could even do is:
i. Cease Fire
ii. Wait 1 turn to get Open Borders with Frederick when Alex should become his Worst Enemy instead of us being Frederick's Worst Enemy (since Frederick will Open Borders at Annoyed or higher)
iii. Instead of parking Chariot 3 close to Orleans, we send Chariot 3 to reveal the City of Hamburg (we don't need to go inside of the City, just see its contents)

If Hamburg looks vulnerable (defended by only 1 Axeman), we load Chariot 3 plus another nearby Unit (probably an Axeman but maybe a Horse Archer if we don't have our Axeman yet) onto a Galley, then send our Chariots in England by Galley chain, and descend upon Hamburg to attack.

If Hamburg isn't vulnerable, then we can wait to build up more forces. Like that plan.

I've yet to come up with a solid rule and people who have invested more time into the issue than me have posted on the subject on this forum, so the info is out there.

What I can say is that if a breakpoint gets met in terms of the number of hits required to win or lose, then there's more of a significant difference, otherwise the difference tends to be reasonably small. Understood. Thanks.

With any luck, we'll have used Chariot 3 (in Orleans now) and our other existing Units to have captured Hamburg by that time. But, if Hamburg is heavily-defended, then such a Chariot will be more useful than an Archer built in London in the short term. Follow that. Wouldn't it mean delaying attacking the presumed new city?


EDIT:

Think about it: 6 turns after having settled a City to the north-west, we'll have a moveable Axeman or Chariot. 4 turns later (after 10 turns), we'll have another moveable Chariot. Not clear exactly how that would work. Seems like there would be no granary built.

EDIT 2: If we capture a City, lose 1 Unit, and kill 1 Unit, Frederick will talk with us after only 3 turns of declaring war on him. Don't doubt you, but never had that happen.

It looks that I was wrong, though, and Woodsman II won't let us move 3 squares in one turn. So, let's change the Axeman to moving before healing, then he can heal later. Concur.


EDIT 5: If we want an Axeman, which we definitely do want, in order to help with capturing/holding Hamburg, it will need to come from Paris, and that means not dumping Hammers into a Horse Archer on Turn 75, so that we can actually complete our Axeman on Turn 78 (allowing it to be able to move on Turn 79) after getting whipping overflow Hammers from the Settler.

We would also have to work the Copper on either Turn 77 or Turn 78, but we can figure out that detail for the next turnset.

See you've already updated the PPP. I can play in about 12 hours if needed.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We will likely need to kill that axe at some point

For the first 10 turns that an AI City gets settled, it must keep 2 City Defenders in that City, which is one of the reasons why we have benefitted by deterring Frederick from settling a City close to Orleans up until this late date--by declaring war soon after he settles that City, two of his Units will be tied up defending the new City.

It's true that there are 3 Axemen there, but if one of them comes at Orleans before we can get a second Cease Fire, there will be the option of Orleans whipping a Chariot, and when we declare war, we can plan to put in partial Hammers for a turn into a Chariot (or even a Horse Archer if we're almost at Size 4) in Orleans, to make that Unit easier to whip in the event of an incoming attack--with the thinking that if we whip a Horse Archer, we'd overflow the Hammers into a Chariot.

Follow that. Wouldn't it mean delaying attacking the presumed new city?

We can't capture plus keep the new City until it hits Size 2 anyway, so if we're doing well at Hamburg and don't see a need to immediately Cease Fire, then we'll have the ability to wait for the newly-founded City to grow to Size 2 before capturing it. There's also the option of razing the newly-founded City, although a free City is likely still preferable to razing a City, even if it won't be placed where I'd like it to be placed (1 S of where Frederick keeps putting it in the test game makes much better use of the nearby GH squares, but there's something to be said for the ability to share the Fish Resource with Hamburg from time to time).

Not clear exactly how that would work. Seems like there would be no granary built.

Correct. In the short term, we wouldn't build a Granary, just Units, which is in line with: "We need units . . . now."

We still get 22 Food converting into 30 Hammers, without needing to spend the up-front 60 Hammers in a Granary. It's what we did with Orleans and Lyons, and doing so earned us our first two City captures relatively soon, allowing us to already start planning on how to use the citizens from our two captured Cities, so it's a tactic that we can keep using when it makes sense to do so.

Later, we would put a Chop into the Granary before 1-pop-whipping it.

I can play in about 12 hours if needed.

Jersey Joe has confirmed that he'll wait to take a turnset until you say that you're done playing, so good luck!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Okay, that's the plan, but it will be about 7 hours before I can get to it.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Report for turns 75-77 -- no drama

T75: Execute PPP; find that there is no trade network with Stalin; Galley 2, heading NE from London with scout, spots border of England's last city located 6N of London

IBT: Complete GLH

T76:
Found Academy
Open borders with Fred
Can now trade resources with Stalin, but he has no happiness resources and only wants copper
Note Fred's settler party has moved onto his presumed new city site and his previously threatening axe is now on the forested grass hill 2SE+2E of Orleans and heading SE, presumably heading toward Alex

IBT: Great prophet born far away; Cologne settled as expected

T77:
Chariot finds 2 axes and an archer in Hamburg, none with promotions
Spot worker building road from Berlin to Cologne with axe escort
Find a wounded barb archer in Scandinavia, indicating an AI unit was recently killed there
Great Wall visible (not sure why) east of Berlin
Left several units unmoved and paused game

There is only one movement left in galley holding scout.
Worker 4 west of London could finish granary chop this turn but that would be inefficient. Suggest he chop forest 1E of York for one turn and then return to finish chop into granary after London is out of anarchy

Save from Central: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC0950_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Cactus Pete]

Possible that Hamburg may not be the best next target. A spear there or even another archer will make the city hard to take with the makeup of our army. Also, not at all sure that Cologne shouldn't be razed. It will be limited by Berlin culture and no GLH benefits, and the fish is also in Hamburg's culture, whomever owns the city. Razing Cologne and stealing a worker is an alternative objective before peace, as is no more fighting with the Germans for now.

Let's consider sailing our scout galley SE into Hamburg, unloading the scout to check out Berlin and see what's to the south. Then, he could either return north to monitor German forces prior to an attack or continue exploring at least into Greece. Like to have his intel before deciding how wise it is to DOW with Fred right now. Fred is about to have his northern empire well roaded. Any attack plan should probably include cutting some of those roads. Also, like to have our spy's intel from Portugal to see what difficulties are in store there before deciding how to proceed.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Nicely played, CP!

Thanks for adapting well to the minor inaccuracies, such as the timing of when we'd get a Trade Network with Stalin, that have crept into the plans due to the lack of an up-to-date test game. We must need to explore along the Coast until we reach Stalin's Cultural Borders before we'll be able to get a Trade Network with Stalin without Frederick's intervention. Rather than committing a valuable boat to that task, our Scout seems to be best suited for that task.

I haven't had a chance to look at the game yet, so I'm not sure what the situation is with the Barb Unit that you mentioned, but presumably, we might have to sail past it for another turn before dumping off the Scout, so that our Scout can map visibility along the coast to Stalin. We don't have to hug the coast when exploring, as every time that we visit the coast, our exploring Unit can see 2 squares away across of the water.

We'll also get an idea if it will be worth sending our army (which, given its current make-up, really is a sailing army) to the east to snipe a couple of Cities from Stalin before taking a Cease Fire or Peace. With him having so many Cities, he probably doesn't yet have enough of an army to defend it all, but if we leave him as a sleeping bear for too long, he could become a monster when he puts his resources into military instead of into Industrious Wonder-making and REXing.


Hamburg is simple enough if we want it: build 2 Scouts with whip overflow Hammers from a Horse Archer, instead of 1 Chariot. Declare war when our Units are in position aboard of our boats, then have the Scouts stand 2 squares away from Hamburg, probably to the east of Hamburg (said without looking at the map), on different squares from each other. Give Frederick a turn to act to send his Axemen/Spearmen after our Scouts, then amphibiously assault Hamburg when it gets emptied of 2 of its defenders.

Kill the Axemen when they come back toward Hamburg using our Chariots and if there's a Spearman, kill it off with our Axeman when it comes back to Hamburg.

We'll have to survive 5 to 6 turns of war before we can Cease Fire again (we get 10 War Sucess for capturing a City, so it shouldn't in any way be more than 6 turns). Orleans will be able to hold its own with a whipped Unit or two being able to either attack incoming lone enemy Units or defend from a small stack of enemy invaders.


As for Cologne, I don't see an alternative spot to place a City on the Coast (on top of the Sheep is not a good use of that Sheep Resource), and it has nice Grassland terrain, so we could certainly plan to keep the City. We don't necessarily have to devote resources to capturing it in the next war, though.

Committing Units to raze a City may not be the best use of our limited Units at this stage of the game, since those Units might be better deployed elsewhere during a war and we should expect some Unit losses from every battle, and we wouldn't have a City as a prize to show for our efforts.


Pillaging Roads shouldn't be necessary with naval warfare. We simply need a temporary distraction for Frederick's Units, grab his City when it's lightly defended, then use the fact that the AIs are poor at capturing Cities to hold and keep his City. The best battles are ones that don't even need to be fought at all, and the second best ones are the battles fought under conditions of our choosing.


Alex is way out of position for our boats to help us and our boats are currently our main military advantage. As long as Alex only has 1 City, we would be throwing ourselves up against a brick wall of Units stacked in his lone City, and we wouldn't be able to use our boats to help us out, so I don't see him as a valid military target until we have a stack of about 10 Horse Archers, or have siege Units, to be able to take his capital conclusively.

Here are probably our best choices for military targets:
1. Forget Frederick and go for Joao next
2. Go for Hamburg then Joao
3. Go for Hamburg then Stalin

The thing to realise with Joao is that he is trapped in his little hole with nowhere to go, so he could be easily building stacks of Units, which was the fear that some of us have hinted at in our fear of going in to attack him without seeing what he has.

A possible tactic to use with Joao will be to gift him a City a couple of turns prior to the war, so that he'll feel compelled to send some of his Units out of his existing Cities. Frederick's military forces are already spread out across multiple Cities, so he is easier to deal with in this regard, and we can simply use diversionary tactics for a couple of his Units near to a City that we want to capture, steal a City, then not worry due to his other Units still needing to guard his additional Cities.


From a tech-trading standpoint, Joao is probably going to be our best short-term tech-trading partner, as long as he continues not to meet other AIs, since Hatty seems to be learning nearly every tech, meaning that Joao, by only knowing Hatty, should be willing to trade just about any tech to us. So, I don't mind a bit of a delay in going after Joao, as we'll also benefit from potential additional tech trades by such a delay.

If we had a way to sail our boats past Joao without declaring war on him and without giving his Scouts access to the other AIs, I'd even consider doing so, since Lisbon is not on the critical path for our Railroad, but techs are on the critical path.

With Alex only having 1 City, Frederick is also on the critical path for our Railroad.


Good call about not finishing a Forest Chop that isn't within our Cultural Borders.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We must need to explore along the Coast until we reach Stalin's Cultural Borders before we'll be able to get a Trade Network with Stalin without Frederick's intervention. Rather than committing a valuable boat to that task, our Scout seems to be best suited for that task. Concur that we will need the boat elsewhere. Not sure that's the best immediate use of our scout, though. Russian cities are a ways away from us.

Hamburg is simple enough if we want it: build 2 Scouts with whip overflow Hammers from a Horse Archer, instead of 1 Chariot. Declare war when our Units are in position aboard of our boats, then have the Scouts stand 2 squares away from Hamburg, probably to the east of Hamburg (said without looking at the map) Yes, that's where they'd have to go., on different squares from each other. Give Frederick a turn to act to send his Axemen/Spearmen after our Scouts, then amphibiously assault Hamburg when it gets emptied of 2 of its defenders. That could work, but Berlin is only 4 tiles from Hamburg, and there's a complete road, so his Berlin units (sent on the turn we DOW and deposit scouts) could attack Hamburg immediately after we capture it. I'd like to know what's in Berlin.

As for Cologne, I don't see an alternative spot to place a City on the Coast (on top of the Sheep is not a good use of that Sheep Resource), and it has nice Grassland terrain (German terrain to the SE and no hammers as long as Berlin is German), so we could certainly plan to keep the City. Question that. We don't necessarily have to devote resources to capturing it in the next war, though. Thinking that we could attack its axemen (if no other defenders show up) with our chariots from our cultural borders the same turn we DOW and this would hasten peace negotiations.

Pillaging Roads shouldn't be necessary with naval warfare. It would make defending the city easier.

Alex is way out of position for our boats to help us and our boats are currently our main military advantage. You misunderstood my intentions regarding sending our scout south toward Alex. Checking out Berlin in 2 turns is the priority. At that point, our spy will show us what Joao has in both his cities, and we can better decide whom to fight next. Had no intention of fighting Alex any time soon. Would certainly like to see his area of the map, how Fred's forces are doing in the south, and what of Egypt can be seen from Greece, but none of those is a top priority.

Here are probably our best choices for military targets:
1. Forget Frederick and go for Joao next
2. Go for Hamburg then Joao
3. Go for Hamburg then Stalin

Like to play two turns soon (off to bed now), using spy and scout to gain intel, then pause to discuss these options. BTW, I forgot to mention that there is a gem hill in western England -- possible city site if there is a seafood resource nearby. Our woodsman should learn that, also in 2 turns.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Berlin is on a Hills square, so Chariot 3 could see it from 2 squares away. No need to send the Scout there... Chariot 3 could simply move 1 SE.

The Scout could feasibly make landfall 1 NE or else we could sail our Galley a bit northward then eastward if we feel that the Barb Archer might intercept us, landing a bit more to the east and out of reach of the Barb Archer.

The best short-term use of our resources might be REXing, especially if the alternative consideration is throwing Chariots at Axemen without a hope of capturing a City for our efforts (i.e. attacking just for the sake of attacking).

Expand by the Gems in England, expand to 2 more Cities near Paris, expand to a couple of Cities into Scandinavia before Russia gets there, then if there's another spot in England worth settling by which is better than York, we could Chop and Whip York to the ground and gift it away to someone and then settle another City in England. (Having 3 Cities of our own in England is the maximum, to avoid obscene Colonial Maintenance Cost penalties.)


Our Woodsman II Axeman should be careful to be in a position that spawn-busts at the end of every turn.

Other than our Galley with a Scout, we probably also want to leave our Galleys in their current positions for a turn.

York could whip a Worker then Chop + Whip a Settler. We might even Whip a Settler out of XO Cognac, although that City is Hammer-heavy, so maybe it's better off building Units.

Basically, with The Great Lighthouse in hand, it's time to get Cities, and with Germany not currently being a soft target and our rag-tag army not in position to go after anyone else in the immediate term, then REXing into the land that is available to us seems to be a good approach to meeting the need to get more Cities quickly, at least more efficiently than we can do until we've built up a bit larger of an army.

That's not to say that we can't also plan to go after Hamburg soon, which we should still plan to do, but we might do something like repositioning York's Chariot to help with spawn-busting while our Woodsman II Axeman explores, all the while watching out for Churchill sending any Galleys down the coast toward our captured Cities.

If it costs us 2 Horse Archers to capture a City such as Cologne, then REXing is cheaper.


Russia is at least as close as where we see The Great Wall on the map and could be closer, since The Great Wall doesn't move and only represents Cultural Borders on the turn that it was constructed. We could map a route along Coast squares between our empire and one of Stalin's Cities if we want to ensure a Trade Network connection to him, and it will be nice to see if he has vulnerable coastal Cities due to having REXed and having built the only Wonder besides the one that we built.


XO Cognac can steal both or either of Fur and Copper when it is large enough to do so, but I haven't had time to look closely on which turns that could happen. That fact may mean that we'd want to delay whipping in XO Cognac due to having recently whipped in Paris, so that we can keep working the power squares.

We'll also have to look at the micro in Orleans to figure out when it will be best to focus on working the Hammer-based squares and when it might be better for Paris to steal the Cow.


England has a lot of Forests, so with some patience, we can definitely produce a lot of Units from there.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Berlin is on a Hills square, so Chariot 3 could see it from 2 squares away. No need to send the Scout there... Chariot 3 could simply move 1 SE. Yes, that's better.

The Scout could feasibly make landfall 1 NE That's a possible city site, especially if there is another resource available. Landing would put scout at risk of an attack form a hidden barb (which could mean we'd have to build 2 more scouts for a Hamburg assault). May have to risk that at some point anyway, but sailing north, then east, then unloading next turn or on a future turn might prove safer. Do we want to keep the galley near the scout or just let him risk exploring Scandinavia alone? Is the galley better used elsewhere right now -- perhaps to check out the English capital or the Russian coast east of Hamburg or else we could sail our Galley a bit northward then eastward if we feel that the Barb Archer might intercept us, landing a bit more to the east and out of reach of the Barb Archer. Archer needs to heal and would not seem an immediate worry.

The best short-term use of our resources might be REXing, especially if the alternative consideration is throwing Chariots at Axemen without a hope of capturing a City for our efforts (i.e. attacking just for the sake of attacking and eliminating vulnerable axemen when we have the chance, perhaps capturing a worker, and speeding peace). Our chariots are not well suited for an amphibious assault on Hamburg, so that would seem a good use for them if we do go after Hamburg.

Expand by the Gems in England, expand to 2 more Cities near Paris, expand to a couple of Cities into Scandinavia (Those cities might have to be defended. Certainly barbs would need to be cleared. Have to be a good city site.) before Russia gets there,

Our Woodsman II Axeman should be careful to be in a position that spawn-busts at the end of every turn. Other than our Galley with a Scout, we probably also want to leave our Galleys in their current positions for a turn. Yes. He will heal IBT and can be moved 1N of horses as needed.

York could whip a Worker then Chop + Whip a Settler. Concur with settler after worker, if there is a food resource to go with gems.

Basically, with The Great Lighthouse in hand, it's time to get Cities, and with Germany not currently being a soft target and our rag-tag army not in position to go after anyone else in the immediate term, then REXing into the land that is available to us seems to be a good approach to meeting the need to get more Cities quickly, at least more efficiently than we can do until we've built up a bit larger of an army. See the merit of REXing now. Like to see how vulnerable Portugal might be and what immediate reinforcements are in Berlin before deciding on that approach.

all the while watching out for Churchill sending any Galleys down the coast toward our captured Cities. Actually more concerned with barb galleys appearing along the foggy coast.

If it costs us 2 Horse Archers to capture a City such as Cologne, then REXing is cheaper. Yes, if Cologne can't be razed soon with chariots, probably not worth it.


Russia is at least as close as where we see The Great Wall on the map (How is it that we are able to see it?)and could be closer, We could map a route along Coast squares between our empire and one of Stalin's Cities if we want to ensure a Trade Network connection to him, Not clear about this. We have the network as long as we are not at war with Fred, and, if we are at war, then Hamburg would block any coastal route to Russia that I see available. and it will be nice to see if he has vulnerable coastal Cities due to having REXed and having built the only Wonder besides the one that we built.

England has a lot of Forests, so with some patience, we can definitely produce a lot of Units from there.

Yes. We need to look for another British worker to steal and put to work chopping.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

but sailing north, then east, then unloading next turn or on a future turn might prove safer.

Sure, that safer approach sounds fine.

Do we want to keep the galley near the scout or just let him risk exploring Scandinavia alone?

I'd say sail as far as we need to go to make a safe landing and then sail back. The Scout can move 1 square at a time onto flat land. If the terrain uses up both the the Scout's movement points, the Scout can try to move onto Hills Forest squares to at least move to defensive terrain.

Let's choose to put a bit of a delay on the Hamburg assault so that we can temporarily use our boats to help with overseas REXing and to help with dropping off our Scout on a relatively safer spot.

Note that the Barb Archer acts as a spawn-buster to prevent additional Barb Units from spawning around him, although Barbs which previously existed before the Barb Archer appeared could still be in the area.

Is the galley better used elsewhere right now -- perhaps to check out the English capital or the Russian coast east of Hamburg

I don't think that we should delay the Hamburg attack that long. England's capital hasn't expanded its Cultural Borders yet (it will on any given turn), and our Axeman can check it out once he's located the best locations for us to own Cities in England and has help with spawn-busting a safe passage for a Settler.

I'd probably suggest using the York Settler to settle by the Gems Resource... if there are no Food Resources in the west, we could settle on the GH For square that is 3 N of London to get Fish + Gems.

The Axeman can probably move 2 NW next turn and hopefully get a good view of that whole area, and with any luck, thereby revealing the Coast square that is 3 N of York plus more land and water to the north-west.


Keeping our Chariot 2 in York will temporarily help with spawn-busting in that area, at least until our Cultural Borders appear and start Culture-busting for us. If we are really concerned about potential Barb Galleys, Chariot 2 could move 1 N this turn, although he'd lose the flexibility of being sent toward Frederick, and it sounds as though you want to fight Frederick soon at Cologne, so our Chariot 2 could just stay put for another 2 turns (T77 and T78) and then could leave England while our Woodsman II Axeman takes over the spawn-busting duty for the area north of York, leaving Chariot 2 (and Chariot 1 in London) free to leave England on T79.

One concern with moving Chariot 2 to 1 N G For now is that if there is already an English Galley in the fog 3 N of York, it could assault York uncontested. So, it's better to play it safe and just leave our Chariot 2 in York this turn and risk a bit of Barb-Galley-spawning.

Archer needs to heal and would not seem an immediate worry.

It would be nice for our Horse Archer to land adjacent to that Archer (not amphibious assault it). So, if the Barb Archer moves, then next turn, we could land our Horse Archer where that Barb Archer is located. If the Barb Archer doesn't move and chooses to heal, we could land our Horse Archer on the following turn.

That GH Deer For square is strong (because it's not a Tundra square and because it has a Forest), making it as strong as a G Cow square, and there's a coastal Fish there, which is enough to make it a decent City location. It would be nice to see a bit more of the area with our Horse Archer before deciding where to land our Settler, which could be the Settler that we just whipped in Paris.

eliminating vulnerable axemen when we have the chance, perhaps capturing a worker, and speeding peace

If we want that Worker, we'll probably have to wait until it has built a Road at 1 NW of Berlin, at 1 E of Cologne, and then moves to the G Sheep to start Roading. (If we were to attack before then, the Worker would probably not dare to improve the G Sheep, as it is adjacent to our Cultural Borders.) That would be our Turn 80 (or later).

I wouldn't suggest razing Cologne, but we could either keep it or else leave it around to help with killing off German Axeman as long as he only sends Axemen our way. It's arguable, though, that he'd replace his fallen Units, and those Units might randomly get replaced by Spearmen, so we might make our jobs tougher.

It's probably still preferable to plan on a Hamburg assault at the start of the war--that Worker will be on the G Sheep square for 6 turns, so we'll have plenty of time to capture it, and then Frederick will have less incentive to send newly-built Units to Cologne and/or Hamburg, meaning that we will have a much smaller chance of seeing any Spearmen appear.

He will heal IBT and can be moved 1N of horses as needed.

Let's not worry about healing our Woodsman II Axeman just yet. He's pretty much invincible on a Forested square.

England's Cultural Borders will Culture-bust, as will London's Cultural Borders next turn, so I think that the main area that our Axeman will want to cover will be to the north of York, and he won't be needed for spawn-busting so close to that Horse Resource, thanks to London's Cultural Borders appearing.

See the merit of REXing now. Like to see how vulnerable Portugal might be and what immediate reinforcements are in Berlin before deciding on that approach.

Well, we can commit the Paris-built Settler to the Fish + Deer in Scandinavia and a York-built Settler to the Gems Resource in England. Whether we build the 2 Settlers for Cities around Paris immediately or whether we delay them a bit can still be decided in a couple of turnsets.

Actually more concerned with barb galleys appearing along the foggy coast.

It's a great point to keep in mind.

Yes, if Cologne can't be razed soon with chariots, probably not worth it.

I'm still not sure if we'd be better off razing Cologne than aiming to keep it. We have no other way to make use of that G Sheep square than to settle there or 1 S of there, and while settling 1 S of there would be a better long-term location, it's probably not worth the resources to resettle most AI Cities (except for Opporto, which missed out on 2 optional Fish Resources, but we might just let Joao keep Opporto if we're not going to go to the trouble to give him a different City in the short term). We're just talking about a difference of 2 GH squares, and while it's annoying when AIs don't place their Cities properly, at least there's the ability to share Hamburg's Fish when Hamburg has too much Food. If it were a Gold Resource 3 S of Cologne, I'd raze Cologne, but not for 2 GH squares.

(How is it that we are able to see it?)

The Great Wall plays by its own rules--if you have revealed a square, even if that square is later fogged, you get to see The Great Wall appear in those fogged squares when it gets constructed. Cultural Borders, on the other hand, won't be revealed in fogged squares. So, we know that Russia settled a City 1 S of the G Wheat--if and when that City's Cultural Borders expand, those Cultural Borders will be adjacent to Berlin's Cultural Borders.

We have the network as long as we are not at war with Fred, and, if we are at war, then Hamburg would block any coastal route to Russia that I see available.

How you described the situation sounded like we only got a Trade Network with Stalin after we got Open Borders with Frederick, meaning that we're using the fact that Frederick has mapped a path to Stalin in order to have trading going on with Stalin. Hence, why it would be good for our Scout to map out our own route to Stalin, so that we can still have a connection with Stalin without needing Open Borders with Frederick.

Speaking of which, do you see that we have two 1-Commerce Trade Routes? We should Open Borders with Stalin for now--we're currently Churchill's Worst Enemy, so it's not like Churchill will care.

We need to look for another British worker to steal and put to work chopping.

Sure, but I'd suggest parking that idea for a couple of turns so that we can ensure that we get proper spawn-busting of England as our top priority, with exploration as our secondary priority. Safely settling a City by the Gems Resource is important, and we're not going to be able to empty England of our Chariots if there are Barb Units wandering around.

Maybe in 2 or 3 mini-turnsets we'll be able to check to see if Churchill has a Worker and then try to snag it at that time.


Lyons will probably be better off not massively 1-pop-whipping out Chariots. Instead, we can switch to building a Galley, forget about Roading the Fur in favour of more-quickly Mining the GH Riv Wine square, then work on growing to Size 3 so that we can get a Galley for the south.

It would be nice to see if we can REX around Egypt to try to block Hatty from expanding, buying us more time before we'd have to gift her Cities.

She might then spread Islam to us, as I noticed in the test game that she will build Islamic Missionaries even without having the Holy City. Until we steal Theology, she's the only AI who is likely to be sufficiently technologically-advanced to start work on The Apostolic Palace. Even without Islam, it would be nice to have time to build a Christian Missionary for our gift City at 3 S of Paris, to get the State Religion bonus on our Espionage Missions.

The 50% City Culture discount is huge, but it disappears quickly; if we coordinate a large stack of Spies (I'm now thinking of like 10 Spies, no joke) with our State Religion, a Trade Route, that City Culture discount, and the close proximity to Paris discount, then along with a ton of Espionage Points, we could aim to steal a whole bucketload of techs in one shot.

Right now, the potential list includes:
Mathematics
Code of Laws
Construction
Calendar
Monarchy (hopefully, we'll get it in trade for Currency, since it's a non-monopoly tech)
Monotheism (although it's a non-monopoly tech, so it could also come in via trade)
Theology
Philosophy

By the time that we have all of our Spies set up, there will probably be another 3 techs on that list, if not more than 3.

Joao knows Aesthetics--as soon as Hatty knows it, hopefully we will be able to get that tech in trade.


It also looks as though Orleans won't need micro--we grow next turn and will make 8 Hammers per turn while working the Iron, getting 47 + 8 + 8 = 63 H (enough for a Granary) with 1 overflow Food + 6 + 6 = 13 Food out of 26 Food in the foodbin, which works out perfectly for the Granary.

What to build after the Granary would come in the next mini-turnset... it would be nice to get a Lighthouse there eventually, and it might be worth 2-pop-whipping as soon as we hit Size 5, probably 2-pop-whipping a Horse Archer and overflowing into a Chariot or optionally a Lighthouse, probably getting the Units.


I suppose that we can continue to delay Barracks, as we don't have an army to be able to keep attacking, and Barracks are a luxury that we probably can't yet afford.


Lisbon appears to have City Walls, a Barracks, and a Library (in addition to the Buildings that we'd talked about before--a Granary, a Lighthouse, and a Harbour). Oddly enough, Opporto has a Library and I can't see any other Buildings there.


Berlin just seems to have a Barracks and a Granary, while Hamburg has a Granary.


Worker 3 might just be better off being sent to Scandinavia to get to work on Camping that Deer... a Road at 2 NE of Paris won't make that much of a difference for mounted Units, as mounted Units can still move from Paris into Orleans in the span of 1 turn, boarding a Galley in Orleans.


Our Worker 4 can move to 1 E of York, then if no Barbs are there, Chop for a turn. If a Barb managed to sneak to 1 N of the Horse (unlikely, but possible), we could just move 1 S along the Road and Chop at 1 SE of York for a turn instead.


Our Galley 1 could move 2 NE with the Horse Archer aboard, and Galley 4 could move to replace Galley 1 at 1 W of Orleans, picking up the Paris-built Settler and Worker 3 next turn, while Galley 1 sails Horse Archer 4 toward Scandinavia, dropping off Horse Archer 4 onto the Deer if the Barb Archer has moved, otherwise waiting a turn and dropping off... 1 E of the Deer?


Turn 77, 950 BC Hammers in build items
Berlin 21
Hamburg 15
Cologne 1
Lisbon Unknown
Oporto 42


We control 19 out of 159 citizens in the world.


EP Values
Hatty 3 / 232
Stalin 17 / 0
Frederick 156 / 0
Joao 51 / 0
Alex 18 / 0
Churchill 333 / 363


Actually, it looks like our HA 3 wouldn't be able to unload in Scandinavia until T79.

We can either use 3 Galleys to get 3 Units to Scandinavia (a Horse Archer, a Settler, and a Worker) or else we can remain ready with our Galley 3 in London being able to take its two Chariots at a moment's notice, but delay when we get a Worker to Scandinavia.

I'm not sure which approach will be better, but I suppose that if we prepare for going to war with Frederick on short notice, we won't regret an otherwise potential opportunity (such as Hamburg temporarily getting mostly emptied of defenders), so we can just plan to send a Worker there a bit later and then spend the time to finally get a Road at 1 SW of Orleans.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Let's choose to put a bit of a delay on the Hamburg assault so that we can temporarily use our boats to help with overseas REXing and to help with dropping off our Scout on a relatively safer spot. Fine. We don't have the units for an assault or the two scouts available anyway.

It would be nice for our Horse Archer to land adjacent to that Archer (not amphibious assault it). So, if the Barb Archer moves, then next turn, we could land our Horse Archer where that Barb Archer is located. That will take 2 turns.

Well, we can commit the Paris-built Settler to the Fish + Deer in Scandinavia and a York-built Settler to the Gems Resource in England. And the settler for a gift city for Hats?

The Great Wall plays by its own rules--Did not know that.

How you described the situation sounded like we only got a Trade Network with Stalin after we got Open Borders with Frederick, meaning that we're using the fact that Frederick has mapped a path to Stalin in order to have trading going on with Stalin. Yes, that's how it looks to me. Hence, why it would be good for our Scout to map out our own route to Stalin, so that we can still have a connection with Stalin without needing Open Borders with Frederick. Thinking we can worry about that once we take Hamburg. Before then, it's a mute point.

Speaking of which, do you see that we have two 1-Commerce Trade Routes? We should Open Borders with Stalin for now--we're currently Churchill's Worst Enemy, so it's not like Churchill will care. Okay.

Lyons will probably be better off not massively 1-pop-whipping out Chariots. Instead, we can switch to building a Galley, forget about Roading the Fur in favour of more-quickly Mining the GH Riv Wine square, then work on growing to Size 3 so that we can get a Galley for the south. Check.

It would be nice to see if we can REX around Egypt to try to block Hatty from expanding, buying us more time before we'd have to gift her Cities. We can't do everything at once.

Worker 3 might just be better off being sent to Scandinavia to get to work on Camping that Deer... a Road at 2 NE of Paris won't make that much of a difference for mounted Units, as mounted Units can still move from Paris into Orleans in the span of 1 turn, boarding a Galley in Orleans.

Makes sense.

No one else is participating, so I'm going to go ahead and play a couple of turns. (Will post save but will have to write it up tomorrow.)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Suggested PPP

Diplo Policy (no change)
Christianity? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give a Resource? Yes (There isn't an enforced 10 turns of Peace for saying yes)
Peace deal or Open Borders? No--we should be the ones to decide when these deals happen
Give Horseback Riding? No
Give a Tech other than Horseback Riding? No to Frederick (since we'll be attacking him soon), yes to anyone else
Join a war? No

Reasons for stopping (no change)
We spot a Galley of Churchill's
We meet a new AI
One of our Cities is threatened
Something in the plan sounds wrong


Turn 77, 950 BC

Open Borders with Stalin

Cities
Lyons builds a Galley

Units
Galley 3 Skips its turn in London
Galley 1 (with HA 4 aboard) Skips its turn to wait for Paris' Settler
Galley 4 moves 2 E to Orleans' Fish
Galley 2 (with Scout aboard) moves 1 N

Worker 4 can partially Chop at 1 E of York then STOP (or Chop and STOP at 1 SE of York if a Barb Unit is 1 N of the Horse)


Turn 78

Visually look for Churchill sending a Galley to us

Cities
Paris can just keep working the Fur (for more Flasks); 11 + 18 = 29 Hammers in the Axeman means we'll complete it in 2 turns
Orleans should be working Fish, Cow, and Iron automatically
Lyons should be working Fish and Fur automatically

Units
The Paris Settler can board Galley 1 (at 1 W of Orleans)
Galley 1 moves 2 NE to Orleans' Fish
HA 3 loads onto Galley 4
The Paris Settler loads onto Galley 4
Galley 4 (with HA 3 and Settler aboard) moves 2 NE (to 3 N of Cologne)
Galley 2 can sail north-east > east? and see if he can spot somewhere safe to drop off the Scout; if not, wait another turn to drop off the Scout
Axe 3 should be able to move 2 NW, with London's Cultural Borders covering the south-east and Chariot 2 (in York) covering the south-west to prevent Barbs from spawning
Make note of which Units are in Hamburg
Chariot 3 can move 1 SE G Riv Cottage Road and make note of the Units in Berlin; probably Skip its turn here
Spy 2 continues toward Lisbon

Worker 3 can move to 1 SW of Orleans and Road the G square
Worker 4 can probably still partial Chop and STOP at 1 E of York (since I think that London will be working the three Forests this turn)

Turn 79

Visually look for Churchill sending a Galley to us

Cities
XO Cognac should have 1 Unhappy citizen, but I think that we should wait to whip until Paris has grown more
London can 2-pop-whip its Granary (whipping away the Unhappy citizen)

Units
Worker 4 should be able to Chop the G Riv For that is 1 W of London
Galley 2 looks for a safe spot to drop off our Scout in Scandinavia and then sails back
Galley 4 can unload our HA 3 (although probably don't risk unloading our Settler yet) next to the Barb Archer (let the Barb Archer attack us, hopefully)
Galley 1 can wait on Orleans' Fish (it can collect Worker 3 next turn)
Chariot 3 can make note of what's in Berlin then move 1 N G Riv Sheep along the Road and make note of what's in Hamburg
Maybe wait on moving Axeman 3 until we see what's going on with England's Culture and until we decide if we'll be leaving England with our Chariots yet or not

Worker 4 maybe partially Chop the G For Road at 1 SE of York?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played into T79. Much revealed. Sorry, got to get some sleep.

Save from Central: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC0900_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Nice work! Things are progressing nicely!


Sometimes, the AIs are terrible at placing their Cities.

In order to get rid of a City that we have captured, we'd have to give it away, declare war on the AI to whom we gifted the City, recapture the City, and then only if we have I believe less than 25% of the City's Culture would we get an option to raze the City.

Would it be worth it to raze York that way? Let's say "no," as frustrating as it is to look at where Churchill placed his Cities. We can potentially revisit this idea if we reveal even more Resources around Nottingham, such as a Gold Resource.

Spoiler :

Sure, if we were doing the initial settling, we'd probably have settled 2 N of where York is located. But, settling there means waiting for the Gems to get within our Cultural Borders. We could use the extra Happiness yesterday.

Also, yes, Nottingham was also poorly-placed, but we'd have to both raze and relocate York and eliminate Churchill just to relocate and keep Nottingham, since owing 4 Cities in England would be ridiculously expensive. Rather than messing around in our "back woods," there are other juicy AIs with great Cities in the world to worry about capturing, so let's just live with the hand that we've been dealt and use it to speed our way to capturing additional AI Cities.


Yes, Hatty is trolling us by waiting to tech Currency until when we went to tech it ourselves. On the other hand, it's such a good tech that I don't mind duplicating her research on it.


Frederick has been annoying by spamming Spearmen and Axemen. But, fortunately, he has made a few more Axemen than Spearmen. With a stack of Horse Archers, Chariots, and an Axeman, we should be able to deter attacks against our stack while also being able to take on a City.

Cologne needs 19 Food to grow to Size 2. By working the G Sheep square, it should grow to that City Size by Turn 83.

Spoiler :

As long as Hamburg doesn't build City Walls, we could dump off Units at 1 S of Hamburg, throw our Horse Archers at the City, throw our Chariots at the City, then, when we capture the City, move our Axeman stack defender and other Units into the City, since any surviving mounted Units would still have 1 movement point available to them. We could even still attack if City Walls go up, but it will just be a bit costlier of an attack. Or, we could still dump off our Units at Hamburg to lure some Units out of Berlin, then send our stack at Berlin and hope that Berlin had been emptied enough of defenders to be able to take it down.

If Cologne remains defended only by Axemen, we could follow up by attacking it with Chariots, otherwise we could just defend against any Units that march out of Cologne toward Orleans.


Galley 2 won't be able to help us out with picking up and dropping off Units until Turn 85. We could shave that off to Turn 84 if we simply took Horse Archer 4 from Scandinavia, but let's aim for Turn 85.

If Lyons were to whip two Chariots in succession, one could move on Turn 80 and another could move on Turn 82. With a Road built at 1 NW of Lyons, such a Chariot could arrive in Orleans on Turn 83.

Any Unit that arrives in Orleans on Turn 83 would be able to get on a Galley that has moved into Orleans on Turn 82 (or sooner) and be able to be dropped off at 1 S of Hamburg on Turn 85, assuming that Frederick doesn't have a Galley blocking us at 1 W of Hamburg.

So, assuming that we had a Galley waiting inside of Orleans, that second Chariot could get dropped off at 1 S of Hamburg on Turn 85.

Paris' Axeman will arrive in Orleans on 81. If Paris also 2-pop-whipped a Horse Archer on Turn 82, it could arrive in Orleans on Turn 83.

If XO Cognac completed its Chariot, 2-pop-whipped a Horse Archer on Turn 80, then completed another Chariot on Turn 81, that third Unit could arrive in Orleans on Turn 83.


So far, that's 2 Chariots from Lyons, 2 Chariots and 1 Horse Archer from XO Cognac, plus 1 Axeman and 1 Horse Archer form Paris. Add to that the 2 Chariots from England plus Horse Archer 4 from Scandinavia and we have:
3 Horse Archers
6 Chariots
1 Axeman

That's 10 Units... ummm, but we only have 4 Galleys.

So, London can build a Galley now and 2-pop-whip it on Turn 80, then use Worker 4 to Chop at 1 NW of London to finish off the Granary.

That situation also leaves Orleans unwhipped, giving us the ability to put a turn of Hammers into a Horse Archer, switch to slow-building an Axeman, then whip the Horse Archer on Turn 83, which is too late to help out with the attack but gives us a Horse Archer on Turn 84 and an Axeman on Turn 85 for the defence of Orleans, perhaps both parking themselves on top of our Iron.


York remains free to 2-pop-whip its Worker and then start on building a Settler. That Worker could start by Chopping at 1 NE of York first, to save the Settler 1 turn in getting to the double-Gems City location (on the GH For that is 1 E of the northern Fish). That GH For Chop would earn us 10 Hammers in York, so we may or may not want to spend the Worker turns to also Chop it before settling there.


Worker 3 should probably improve that Silver as its first priority in Scandinavia, although the Forest on the Silver will delay when it actually gets Mined. We could probably simply Chop that Silver's Forest first, then Road the square, the Mine it. That Scandinavian City should probably start off with building a Worker while working the Deer square, getting 40 Hammers after 8 turns (5 Hammers per turn including the City Centre square), and the 20 Hammers from the Chop would be used to finish off the second Worker, to speed up the Mining of that Tundra Silver. That's assuming that the Barb Archer doesn't clobber our Horse Archer 4 and Settler.

Assuming that we do defeat the Barb Archer, a Shock Promotion would help out on our Horse Archer 4 for the battle of Hamburg, as an Axeman would still be the favoured City Defender even with that Promotion.


Our Scout can keep trying to reveal a path along the northern part of the Scandinavian coast until we have a path mapped out to one of Stalin's Cities, so that we won't lose his juicy 3-Commerce Trade Routes when we're at war with Frederick. Stalin must have some really nice Cities.


Once Currency is in the bag, we'll have to decide between taking a Cease Fire with Churchill for Mysticism or self-teching it, then trade Meditation from Joao for Currency.


By the time that we capture Hamburg, we should have a better idea of what some of Stalin's Cities look like--he can build Swordsmen, Axemen, Spearmen, Archers, and City Walls, but may not have expanded his Cultural Borders for some of his Cities and won't have Horse Archers.

If we can make it happen, it'll be nice to build up a large enough stack to just slam Berlin with brute force, then decide if we have enough Units remaining to go after a couple of Stalin's Cities.


Around that time, we'll need to start thinking about sending Settlers toward Africa to try to block Hatty from REXing too much, and also begin spamming Spies from all over our empire, targeting, say, Turn 97 for our massive tech theft, meaning that Spies would need to arrive at 3 S of Paris by Turn 91.

We'd also want to build a Christian Monastery, probably in London, followed by a Christian Missionary for our gift City.

The Commerce from The Great Lighthouse will go a long way toward accumulating the EPs against Hatty required to steal a lot of techs from her.


I was able to get a Trade Route discount with the gifted City right away, presumably because we have a juicy overseas Trade Route to offer her.

Given these discounts:
-20% for Trade Routes
-15% for our State Religion
-50% for City Culture (it only lasts for one turn and then quickly drops to -28% or so on the next turn due to her hiring a Caste System Artist)
-50% for Stationary Spy
-20% for Espionage Spending

I could steal:
Mathematics = 72 EPs (373 Flasks)
Construction = 101 EPs (522 Flasks)
Code of Laws = 101 EPs (522 Flasks)
Monarchy = 87 EPs (448 Flasks)
Civil Service = 233 EPs (1196 Flasks--she doesn't know it in the real game yet, though)
Philosophy = 233 EPs (1196 Flasks)

Note that I could steal Construction on the same turn as learning Mathematics.


At the back of our minds, we may want to keep the idea of Chopping out The Hanging Gardens once we steal Mathematics, as long as Hatty doesn't decide to build it first.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Suggested PPP

Turn 79, 900 BC

Lyons 1-pop-whips its Chariot
London switches to building a Galley

Worker 4 moves 1 N G Riv For (1 NW of London)

Galley 3 and the two Chariots in England can stay there until as late as Turn 82 and still be able to make the Turn-85 landing at Hamburg
Axeman 3 can therefore afford to check out the water to the east of Nottingham and then come back to the west of England, so we could move 1 E GH Gems For > 1 E GH For (2 N of the Fur)


Turn 80

Paris completes Axeman -> builds Horse Archer
Orleans completes Granary -> builds Horse Archer

XO Cognac 2-pop-whips its Horse Archer
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, and Horse
Paris steals the Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and Copper
Lyons switches to building a Chariot
London 2-pop-whips its Galley

Worker 2 moves 1 N G Riv (1 NW of Lyons) and Roads
Worker 4 Chops the G Riv For that is 1 NW of London

EDIT: Move the Settler and Horse Archer 4 to 1 NE onto the Silver (we can settle on top of the Silver next turn)
EDIT: Galley 4 can then move 2 N to the Fish unless the Barb Archer won, in which case we might as well send our Worker 3 back to the mainland
EDIT: Worker 3 should manually unload from Galley 4 (since Galley 4 is needed in Orleans next); regardless of whether the Barb Archer is dead or if the Barb Archer moved, we should be able to unload on the TunH For that is 1 SW of the Silver.
Galley 1 can head toward Orleans
Galley 2 can also head toward Orleans, with the plan of picking up Horse Archer 4 on Turn 82

Spy 2 can move toward 3 S of Paris. We've seen what Joao has, but our forces are going to be tied up in the north, so there's no point in risking our Spy's life in Portugal's Cultural Borders

Axeman 3 moves 1 NE G For (1 S of Nottingham) > 1 NE Tundra? For (1 E of Nottingham and 1 W of the TunH Fur For)

Scout moves 1 NE TunH Deer For and then continues exploring along that northern coast, to try to reveal a path to a City of Stalin's that won't get blocked by Hamburg's Cultural Borders

The Chariots from XO Cognac and Lyons can head to Orleans



Turn 81

XO Cognac completes Horse Archer -> builds Chariot

Paris switches to building an Axeman
Orleans switches to building an Axeman
Lyons 1-pop-whips its Chariot
York 2-pop-whips its Worker

EDIT: Settle a Scandinavia City on top of the Silver
EDIT: Build a Worker in the new City; another City can build a Work Boat

Maybe don't move Axeman 3 yet, as it's hard to tell what he'd see and where he'd need to be

EDIT: Worker 3 moves to the Tundra Deer

XO Cognac's Horse Archer can head toward Orleans
London's new Galley can head toward Orleans