SGOTM 23 - Xteam

Dhoomstriker · Jul 27, 2016

Looks pretty good.

We should still be able to grow this turn in XO Cognac despite what the 4th citizen was doing last turn. :mischief:

I'm not sure how you guys manage to pause and save the game with us already talking to a Leader (Frederick in this case). Maybe it has to do with one of the game option settings. For example, I always get prompted for selecting a build item at the start of a turn when a built item was completed, but I can tell from some other people's saved games that they have disabled such an option and thus I get prompted to select build items that they hadn't selected when I load their saved games.

Again, a bit of bad luck by not keeping the Granary. We're definitely owed some Building captures in the future. Keeping all but 1 of our Units in the attack was pretty solid, though, so nice work on your part; the Buildings are random but the fighting, while also somewhat random, can be controlled with wise choices of Unit attacking-order selection.

Also, it's nice to have Russia's Trade Routes back thanks to a quick City capture. :goodjob:

I've already given my suggestions for what to do with our Cities and most of our Units for this turn.

Assuming that you agree with that part of the PPP, probably the other items to take care of are:
1. Where do we send our troops at Hamburg?
2. Where do we send our Galleys?

I'd suggest piling everyone into Hamburg. Next turn, Chariot 1 could promote to Combat I + Medic I, while Chariots 5, 6, and 7 could all take Combat I so that they'll heal faster (Promoting heals half of your existing damage, so in most cases it's best to Promote and then Heal). Once our troops have healed (maybe after 3 turns?), we can leave the Axeman in Hamburg and then send our troops SE G > SE G Cottage (at 1 W of Munich), giving us 9 attackers, which could probably still capture a 0-City-Defences Munich built on flatland, even with a couple of Spearmen and Archers in it.

If, before then, Cologne gets mostly emptied of defenders, we could then optionally head to the G For at 1 NE of Cologne, then try to snipe that City when Frederick isn't looking.

The hope is that by "hiding" all of our troops in Hamburg for a couple of turns, Frederick will run away. If he throws Units at our stack, at least we'll get the best defender in the stack for whatever attacker he has thrown at us.

As for the Galleys, we definitely want Galley 2 heading toward 1 SE of London.

For the other Galleys, since they don't have too much to do with us choosing to go for Spies now, perhaps we can set them up in a mini-Galley-chain. For example, they could all move to 2 N of Cologne this turn, then next turn, one of them could stay at 2 N of Cologne while the other 3 move to Orleans' Fish. Then, on the following turn, 2 Galleys could move into Orleans and one could stay on Orleans' Fish.

That way, on any given turn, we could load up 2 troops in Orleans and unload them in Hamburg on the following turn, then two turns later could unload 2 more troops into Hamburg. We might not use that option, but after the Spies get built, it could be an option to leverage with troops that we build after building the Spies while we wait for our Spies to get into position and start waiting for 5+ turns each. It's certainly better than having our Galleys sit around in a stack doing nothing.

Once you've played until the start of next turn, it'll be easier to see what micro to do next with our Cities. Hatty will also have picked her next tech by the start of next turn.

Jersey Joe said:
However, our victorious troops have discovered Block Brau and invite the troops outside of Hamburg to join then for a drink.

Jersey Joe said:
Target of opportunity wounded German Spearman (3.5/4) 1SE of Hamburg.

Axeman has 99.47% chance of victory, but could then be easily killed by counter attack from Munich.

It's tempting, but the AIs are programmed well in terms of using "bait" Units far better than we are able to use bait Units. Where did the two Combat I Axemen and the other Spearman go? We're not sure... if they are in Munich, we could probably kiss our Axeman goodbye.

Yes, we could guard the Axeman with Horse Archers, but we'd just be fighting for the sake of fighting--not really a good play. Better to be patient, turtle-up while we heal, then be ready to throw 9 mounted Units unexpectedly at either Munich or Cologne, stealing another City instead of just trading a couple of Units back and forth but then possibly being too low on total Unit numbers to be able to capture another City.

Putting it all together...

Suggested PPP

Turn 86

Paris switches Cow -> Copper
Paris works: Wheat, Deer, Fur, and Copper

XO Cognac citizen works the Stone
XO Cognac works: Fish, Cow, Horse, and Stone

Orleans steals back the Cow and works it instead of the G Riv
Orleans works: Fish, Cow, and GH Mine

Orleans builds a Spy

Lyons switches the G For to the GH Riv Wine Mine

London 2-pop-whips the Spy
London works: Fish and Horse

York 1-pop-whips the Settler
York works: Fish

Troops at 1 S of Hamburg move into Hamburg

Galley 2 heads toward 1 SE of London

The other Galleys head back to 2 N of Cologne

Maybe just keep Axe 5 at 1 S of Orleans for now
EDIT: Maybe send Chariot 8 to the G Riv at 1 NE of Orleans (1 S of Orleans' Fish) to see if we can lure that Spearman to come out of Cologne

Worker 1 moves to the G For Road at 1 NE of Paris, partial Chops, and STOPS
Worker 3 moves into Argent on his way to the Tun Deer For at 1 N of Argent
Worker 4 moves 1 N GH For (which he will Chop)
Worker 5 builds a Road on the GH Gems For
Worker 6 moves 1 NE G Riv For (on his way to the Gems)

Scout keeps exploring along the coast toward Russia (we might as well reveal a coastal path to see how many of Russia's Cities could be amphibiously attacked)

Axe 3 (in England) probably keeps skipping his turn, so that we don't "Fortify and forget" him

Turn 87

London completes Spy -> builds Spy

York completes Settler -> builds Work Boat

Paris can work a G For with its Happy citizen

XO Cognac can work a Coast with its Happy citizen

Let's hold off on whipping Orleans until we've discussed what Frederick has done

London should be at Size 3 so should be working Fish, Horse, and Fur

York might consider working the Stone to complete the Work Boat if it will take more than 2 turns to get the Work Boat completed by working the Fish

Units in Hamburg promote:
Chariot 1 could promote to Combat I + Medic I, while Chariots 5, 6, and 7 could all take Combat I

Then, we can see how Frederick is reacting

Jersey Joe · Jul 27, 2016

I agree with the proposed PPP as edited. Will play shortly.

@Dhoomstriker: "Where did the two Combat I Axemen and the other Spearman go? We're not sure... if they are in Munich, we could probably kiss our Axeman goodbye."

I believe they did move into Munich, they at least moved in that direction.

Jersey Joe · Jul 27, 2016

Followed the Suggested PPP
Turn 86 725BC (continued)
The Troops bivouacked outside of Hamburg accept the invitation to celebrate and rush inside the city.

Turn 87 700BC

Paris works a G For with its Happy citizen
XO Cognac works a Coast with its Happy citizen
London completes Spy -> Spy works Fish; Horse; Fur
York completes Settler -> Starts Work Boat works Stone (WB finishes next turn)

Chariot 1 promotes to Combat I + Medic I, while Chariots 5, 6, and 7 could all take Combat I

Fredrick's troop movements make Cologne a tempting Target, to bad we cannot reach there on this turn. Chariot 8 has a good chance to kill an Axeman and retreat to safety.

Here are the logs:
Session Turn Log from 725 BC to 700 BC:

Spoiler :

AutoLog

Spoiler :

The Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG023_BC0700_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Jersey Joe · Jul 27, 2016

Here is a suggested PPP for city builds, worker actions, moving to settle Gem city + getting spies out of London.

Diplo Policy
Christianity? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give a Resource? Yes (There isn't an enforced 10 turns of Peace for saying yes)
Peace deal or Open Borders? No--we should be the ones to decide when these deals happen
Give Horseback Riding? No
Give a Tech other than Horseback Riding? No to Frederick (since we'll be attacking him
soon), yes to anyone else
Join a war? No
Trade a tech for a tech and/or Gold? No--let's discuss tech trades and put them in a PPP

Reasons for stopping:
We meet a new AI;
One of our Cities is threatened;
Something in the plan sounds wrong;

Turn 87 700 BC (Completing the turn)
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Ask Alex to Attack Berlin

Paris
build: Spy
Works: Fur, Deer, Wheat, Copper, G Forest

XO Cognac
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone, Coast

Orleans
build: 2-pop-whip Spy Overflow into Spy -- Need to discuss
Works: Fish, Cow

Lyons
build: 1 pop-whip Chariot overflow in galley Chariot to move to Orleans
Works: Fish, Wine

London
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Workboat
Works: Stone

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 moves 1NE G builds road to connect Orleans to Paris
Worker 2 moves 1E Partial build road and Stop
Worker 3 moves 1N TunH Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 4 Chops GH For at 1E of GH Gems For
Worker 5 finishes road on GH Gems For
Worker 6 moves 1N to GH Gems For

York Settler moves 1NE G, 1N G For

Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Turn 88, 675 BC
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

Paris
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (I think this settler should build a "helper" city NE of Paris to take advantage of the unused netted fish)
Works: Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (to settle 3S of Paris)
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse

Orleans
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, GH Mine

Lyons
build: Galley
Works: Fish, Wine

London
build: Finishes Spy > Monastery
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Spear If it can be ready to move 2 turns before London's Missionary is ready to board a Galley.
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 finishes road to connect Orleans to Paris
Worker 2 moves 1E River G, 1SE Wheat
Worker 3 moves 1N TunH Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 4 Chops GH For at 1E of GH Gems For
Worker 5 Chops GH Gems For
Worker 6 Chops 1N to GH Gems For

York Settler moves 1N GH For

Galley 2 moves 1E, 1SE to 1SE of London
2 Spies from London board Galley 2

Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Dhoomstriker · Jul 27, 2016

Good call on remembering to ask Alex for help in the war. Every little drop of blood helps!

Here's what we can do at Orleans:
We already have 6 Hammers.
We'll get 60 Hammers from 2-pop-whipping this turn.
On T87, by working the Fish and Cow, we'll make 3 more Hammers
On T88, if we were to work Cow and GH Mine, we could earn an extra 6 Hammers, allowing us to complete an Axeman at the end of the turn if Frederick rushes us: 6 + 60 + 3 + 6 - 40 = 75 - 40 = 35 Hammers

Otherwise, we could just continue to work Fish and Cow on T88 while building another Spy.

Hatty
This scenario seems to have Hatty at its centre. I would not be surprised to find out that other teams focused on going for Hatty, either by sending their navy southward or by marching over land. If a team did so, they have Representation's +3 Happiness in 5 Cities, which would help a lot, and Hatty's large-sized Cities (Memphis is Size 7 and Thebes is Size 12 in our game). However, what they wouldn't have is a fast-teching AI from whom to steal some techs, so they'd have to generate Great People for Lightbulbing.

I didn't expect Hatty to have been such a tech monster, so I can't say that we've properly planned for the situation, but have reacted and are now doing our best to steal techs from her.

It's great that we can essentially use her as a cheap way to get techs. But, there's a risk here--she has built The Apostolic Palace and we eventually will want to capture it. The more that we let her empire expand, the harder it will be to capture her Cities later, particularly since she'll probably have Macemen, Muskets, and stacks of Catapults if her empire gets big enough, as she'll likely have access to building Maces and Muskets soon enough, at her current tech pace.

Hatty is a beast of an AI to conquer when she gets big because she LOVES to build siege Units, which makes invading her extremely challenging when her empire gets big. I've had large armies decimated when declaring war on Hatty because she is smart enough to toss a stack of Catapults at your invaders and then kill them off with her War Chariots before you even knew what hit you. The solution? Don't let her empire get big. We're not in a position to capture her Cities and we won't be in such a position for a while. But, we could try REXing around her.

If we can settle a City close to her Cultural Borders, we can essentially block off some land, especially with Stonehenge giving us expanding Cultural Borders. AIs are programmed such that they cannot expand past your Cultural Borders EXCEPT by boat. There is minimally room for 2 more Cities in Africa, especially once Lisbon gets captured and those Cultural Borders disappear. So, the goal is to trap her before she REXes to having a lot of Cities, forcing her to delay her expansion by requiring her to sail around our City, which buys us time to fill the void created by Joao's disappearing Culture with at least another City.

A smaller AI will maintain a smaller military presence and will also have less Resources--either Strategic Resources (Horses, Stone, Copper, Iron, Ivory) or duplicates of Resources that can be traded for those Resources. It would be unfortunate if another AI were to trade Copper to Hatty, for example.

So, yes, I'd like to stick with the plan of Lyons not whipping its Chariot, Lyons continuing to build a Chariot on T87, then on T88 Lyons switching to and 2-pop-whipping its Galley, while Paris also whips its Settler on T88.

On T89, Paris' Settler moves into Lyons. The Settler, out of movement points, can still Load into the Galley. The Galley then moves 2 S. On T90, Lyons' Chariot will exist and we can dump our Hammers into a Spy that could be 1-pop-whipped on T91? T92?. Lyons' Chariot can move 1 SW G > 1 SE onto the Galley, and then the Galley can move further southward.

We can use the Coast beside Spice Girls Island to sail to the south-west, then back south-east, without needing to Open Borders with Joao. In fact, in the test game, Hatty's Cultural Borders haven't expanded as much as they have in the real game, meaning that there's another island there or some of those BSPollux-built Coast squares like we saw around England, as Hatty's Culture shouldn't expand into a second layer of Ocean squares. Ideally, we'd unload our Units inside of one of Hatty's Cities, to give our Units an extra turn to explore, with the Settler probably exploring deep within Hatty's Culture (where we'd be safe from Barb Units) and the Chariot exploring along the fringes of Hatty's Culture, both of them sticking to Roads when possible, to look for a good spot to block Hatty from settling further Cities, at least in the short run before she can put Settler Parties on Galleys.

Hatty will spread a Religion for which she does not have the Holy City, particularly since her favourite Civic is Organized Religion (which allows for Missionaries to be built without first needing a Monastery), so she could also spread the Apostolic Palace Religion to a City that we settle close to her.

Dealing with Frederick
How close are we to a Cease Fire?

Well, we lost 1 battle on defence, lost 1 battle on offence, and won 5 battles on offence, with the war starting 2 turns ago.

If I set up those conditions in a test game, winning 2 more battles on offence and waiting 1 more turn will give us the option to Cease Fire.

If we win 1 more battle on offence and capture a City, we can Cease Fire this turn.

If we lose 1 more battle on offence (Chariot vs Axeman in City), win 1 more battle on offence (Archer in the fields), end the turn, lose 1 more battle on offence, then win 1 more battle on offence while capturing a City, we can get a Cease Fire next turn.

So, that fact leads me to the following suggestion:
Chariot 8 (1 NE of Orleans) attacks Cologne this turn at 89% odds of winning and 1% odds of retreating
If we win, we're home free, we can kill off Frederick's Archer at 2 SW of Hamburg using Horse Archer 5 in Hamburg (99% odds of winning), then Cease Fire

If Chariot 8 retreats, we simply pull back to the G Riv at 1 NE of Orleans then follow the "If Chariot 8 loses" scenario below.

If Chariot 8 loses, then we still kill off Frederick's Archer with Horse Archer 5 and then we also send these Units to 1 E of Cologne (2 SW of Hamburg)
Horse Archer 7
Chariot 2
Chariot 3
Chariot 6 (wounded)
Chariot 7 (slightly wounded)

Then, we aim to capture Cologne next turn, while still being able to get a Cease Fire if we lose another battle.

There's a chance that Frederick's Axeman (on the G Riv at 1 SW of Cologne) could move into Cologne and there's a chance that he could whip a Unit, so before attacking Cologne on T88, we should probably stop play and assess the situation--if Cologne gets stuffed full of Units, we can decide between attacking or retreating back into Hamburg to heal.

If we retreat, we can watch for another opportunity at Cologne or we might be able to head out toward Munich after we've healed and Frederick's Units have hopefully departed from the area.

I don't mind if York builds a Military Unit after the Work Boat. But, maybe a Chariot or an Axeman would be better... probably an Axeman as it can attack an Axeman, a Spearman, or a Swordsman, as eventually, we'll want to send one of our Settlers on a Galley northward so that we can Liberate a Tundra City to Churchill, then capture, raze, and resettle Nottingham.

Yes, it's currently looking less likely that we'd use Churchill as an Apostolic Palace voting buddy, as he's going to hate us, but that's only if we think in terms of our current economy. Right now, 1 Settler is expensive, costing 100 Hammers.

Later, we'll likely be building Wealth while we tech toward Railroad, which converts Hammers into Gold at a 1:1 ratio. Railroad itself costs 6700 Flasks, and even if we used Liberalism on it, the next-most-expensive tech that we'd have to get, Steam Power, costs 4700 Flasks.

Even if we later have to expend 600 Hammers on 6 Settlers to give Churchill some Cities to Liberate to him to get +9 Diplo Attitude out of him (and more overall positive Diplo Attitude if we recapture and Re-Liberate said Cities multiple times), that's a small drop in the bucket of cost compared to 4700 Flasks.

Another AI could be used for this tactic, but with Churchill being pretty isolated, he's a decent AI to pick, so that later in the game, repeated war declarations won't anger a lot of other AIs.

So, while we might not be able to use Churchill to get us techs, we could still make use of him as an AI to whom to Liberate Cities, get as an Apostolic Palace voting buddy, and possibly gift Churchill Cities along the Railroad line (in Russia, for example) that we don't want to keep while getting a Defensive Pact with him so that his territory counts as our territory for the Railroad line.

I think that a delay in resettling Nottingham is worthwhile to secure a form of Victory Condition, since we need at least 1 AI to vote for us in order to win an Apostolic Palace Victory, and we're likely to tarnish our reputation with other AIs in our quest to control a complete Railroad path.

Even if we don't want to delay resettling Nottingham for too long, we'll need some Units (probably Axemen) to take down Nottingham, with us perhaps first Liberating York to Churchill to keep him alive. Or, if we get a gift City for Churchill, we could still first Liberate York, recapture York, then gift York to Joao after Nottingham has been resettled, since Churchill owning York means us being unable to work the Horse and Stone that are shared with London due to Churchill's previous Culture on those two squares.

T87
Worker 2 moves 1E Partial build road and Stop

Not minding the fact that we tend to use the opposite for "E" and "W" as each other (is there a better way? Should we use "{" and "}"?), I'm thinking that a Road to Athens would be more valuable.
So, I'd suggest:
T87 Worker 2 moves 1 SW G Riv (1 NW of Lyons), partial Farms, and STOPS
T88 Worker 2 moves through Lyons to the GH Sheep square that is 3 E of Lyons

(Worker 1 would still be able to finish the Road toward our gift City, as previously planned out.)

Or, should I start writing suggestions this way?
T87 Worker 2 moves 1 S{ G Riv (1 N{ of Lyons), partial Farms, and STOPS
T88 Worker 2 moves through Lyons to the GH Sheep square that is 3 } of Lyons

Is that even more confusing? Maybe "<" and ">" and then we pick a different character instead of ">" to mean a partial action, such as using a comma?

A Road to Athens means either our Units that go south past Berlin toward Athens being able to come back to our boats quickly or else us doing something tricky like:
1. Units from Hamburg move to Cologne
2. Units from Cologne move to Galleys on Orleans' Fish, then unload those Units in Orleans
3. Units arriving at 1 S} aka 1 SE of Paris
4. Units arriving at 1 } aka 1 E of Lyons
5. Units being able to move to the square that is 1 S} + 1 } aka 1 SE + 1 E of the GH Sheep that we Roaded

Going south past Berlin looks like it would also take 5 turns, so there'd be no significant difference for getting to Athens, but such a Road would certainly help to bring our Units back to our boats after going for Athens.

T88
Worker 5 Chops GH Gems For
Worker 6 Chops 1N to GH Gems For

Make sure to STOP both of those Workers after they Chop. The BUFFY setting to stop a Worker from completing a Chop automatically only works for ONE Worker Chopping. If more than one Worker is Chopping, that setting won't work (since it only checks to see if there's one turn of Chopping left when a Worker is Chopping and then only that individual Worker's Chopping action gets stopped without stopping the Chopping action of other Workers on the same square as that Worker), and thus we might end up Chopping the Forest at the wrong time.

T88
Worker 3 moves 1N TunH Deer (1 N of Argent)

It looks like that's a copy-and-paste typo, as we should be able to start Camping on that turn.

Since a Tundra Road takes 3 turns, we should start Camping right away (instead of Roading a path for the second Worker) and then have our newly-built, second Worker spend a turn moving to the Deer, thereby spending a Worker turn in order to get the Deer Camped sooner for additional Food (that's what Worker turns are for, anyway--to get us improved squares that our citizens can work, at the cost of Worker turns).

Horseback Riding
It's time to sell Horseback Riding to Hatty, since she has started teching it and will learn it in 2 turns' time. She has forced our hand. It doesn't help to delay her getting it by 2 turns, as that's 2 turns less of research that she'll be making on our behalf, so sell her Horseback Riding on T87 for whatever Gold that she will give to us.

At least this way, she'll be even more unlikely to ever trade techs with another AI, as another AI won't be able to trade her Horseback Riding for a different tech.

Putting it all together...

Suggested PPP

Diplo Policy
Christianity? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give a Resource? Yes (There isn't an enforced 10 turns of Peace for saying yes)
Peace deal or Open Borders? No--we should be the ones to decide when these deals happen
Give Horseback Riding? No
Give a Tech other than Horseback Riding? No to Frederick (since we'll be attacking him
soon), no to Alex (since we will be attacking him soon), yes to anyone else
Join a war? No
Trade a tech for a tech and/or Gold? No--let's discuss tech trades and put them in a PPP

Reasons for stopping:
We meet a new AI;
One of our Cities is threatened;
Something in the plan sounds wrong;

Turn 87 700 BC (Completing the turn)
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Ask Alex to Attack Berlin

Trade all of Hatty's Gold <-> Horseback Riding

Chariot 8 (1 NE of Orleans) moves 1 E G Riv (1 SE of Orleans' Fish) > attacks Cologne
Horse Archer 5 (in Hamburg) moves to kill the Archer on the G Road at 1 E of Cologne (2 SW of Hamburg)

A] If we captured Cologne:
Axeman 4 (in Hamburg) can kill the Spearman on the Grassland that is 1 SE of Hamburg
Cease Fire with Frederick

B] If Chariot 8 failed to capture Cologne:
Leave Axeman 4 inside of Hamburg
If Chariot 8 is still alive, retreat back 1 NW G Riv (1 NE of Orleans)
Send these Units to join Horse Archer 5 on the G Road that is 1 E of Cologne (2 SW of Hamburg):
Horse Archer 7
Chariot 2
Chariot 3
Chariot 6 (wounded)
Chariot 7 (slightly wounded)

Galleys 1, 3, and 4 can move to Orleans' Fish
Galley 5 can stay 2 N of Cologne

EDIT: Axeman 5 can probably stay at 1 S of Orleans

Paris
build: Spy
Works: Fur, Deer, Wheat, Copper, G Forest

XO Cognac
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone, Coast

Orleans
build: 2-pop-whip Spy Overflow into Spy
Works: Fish, Cow

Lyons
build: Don't whip yet, continue to build the Chariot
Works: Fish, Fur, Wine

London
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Workboat
Works: Stone

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 moves 1NE G builds road to connect Orleans to Paris
Worker 2 moves 1 SW (1 NW of Orleans), Partial build Farm, and Stop
Worker 3 moves 1N TunH Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 4 Chops GH For at 1E of GH Gems For
Worker 5 finishes road on GH Gems For
Worker 6 moves 1N to GH Gems For

York Settler moves 1NE G, 1N G For

Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Turn 88, 675 BC
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

If we captured Cologne last turn, hopefully we can get Open Borders with Frederick now

If we didn't capture Cologne last turn, and we feel that we can easily capture Cologne with only 1 Unit lost (counting Units lost in between turns), capture Cologne. Otherwise, don't move our Military Units yet and let's discuss what to do.

EDIT: Our Scout is on a Road and can probably go 1 SE Vlad > 1 SW G?H For to reveal a bit of the terrain that we didn't uncover (due to those annoying Peaks making for difficult scouting)

Paris
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (to go on Lyons' Galley)
Works: Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (to settle 3S of Paris)
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse

Orleans
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow (we won't have enough Food to be at Size 3 yet)

Lyons
build: Switch to the Galley, 2-pop-whip the Galley
Works: Fish, Wine

London
build: Finishes Spy > Monastery
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Axeman for Nottingham?
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 finishes road to connect Orleans to Paris
Worker 2 moves 1 SE into Lyons > 1 NE GH Road > 1 E GH Road > 1 E GH Sheep
Worker 3 Camps TunH Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 4 Chops GH For at 1E of GH Gems For
Worker 5 Chops GH Gems For and STOPS
Worker 6 Chops 1N to GH Gems For and STOPS

York Settler moves 1N GH For

Galley 2 moves 1W, 1SW to 1SE of London (2 N of Orleans' G Cow)
2 Spies from London board Galley 2

Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Jersey Joe · Jul 28, 2016

Sorry about the messed up directions (wrote those directions after celebrating with the troops) :mischief:

I do not know if we will find a spot for a settler in Africa, but I am okay with trying.

What about MPs for Lyons, London, and Hamburg ?

Suggested PPP

Diplo Policy
Christianity? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give a Resource? Yes (There isn't an enforced 10 turns of Peace for saying yes)
Peace deal or Open Borders? No--we should be the ones to decide when these deals happen
Give Horseback Riding? No
Give a Tech other than Horseback Riding? No to Frederick (since we'll be attacking him
soon), yes to anyone else
Join a war? No
Trade a tech for a tech and/or Gold? No--let's discuss tech trades and put them in a PPP

Reasons for stopping:
We meet a new AI;
One of our Cities is threatened;
Something in the plan sounds wrong;

Turn 87 700 BC (Completing the turn)
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Ask Alex to Attack Berlin
Trade Horseback Riding to Hatty, for what ever we can get. (What about all her gold + a resource or the unlikely gold per turn?)

Paris
build: Spy
Works: Fur, Deer, Wheat, Copper, G Forest

XO Cognac
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse, Stone, Coast

Orleans
build: 2-pop-whip Spy Overflow into Depends on Frederick
Works: Fish, Cow

Lyons
build: Chariot
Works: Fish, Wine, Fur

London
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Workboat
Works: Stone

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 moves 1NE G builds road to connect Orleans to Paris
Worker 2 moves 1SW G Riv (1NW Lyons) Partial Farms, and STOPS
Worker 3 moves 1N TunH Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 4 Chops GH For at 1W of GH Gems For
Worker 5 finishes road on GH Gems For
Worker 6 moves 1N to GH Gems For

York Settler moves 1NE G, 1N G For

Chariot 8 attacks Axe in Cologne
If Capture Cologne: Horse Archer 5 attacks Archer 1E of Cologne; Axe in Hamburg attaks injured Spearman (1SE of Hamburg)
....Get Cease Fire;
If fail to Capture Cologne, STOP discuss options. (A stack at 1E of Cologne is vulnerbule to attack from Berlin)

Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Turn 88, 675 BC
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.
If at war with Fred, ask Alex to Attack Berlin

Paris
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (I think this settler should build a "helper" city NE of Paris to take advantage of the unused netted fish)
Works: Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (to settle 3S of Paris)
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse

Orleans
build: Spy if Cease Fire or Fred does not Rush us, otherwise Axe.
Works: Fish, Cow, GH Mine

Lyons
build: 2-pop whip Galley overflow to Chariot
Works: Fish, Wine

London
build: Finishes Spy > Monastery
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Axeman
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Worker 1 finishes road to connect Orleans to Paris
Worker 2 moves through Lyons to GH Sheep (3E of Lyons)
Worker 3 Camps Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 4 Chops GH For at 1W of GH Gems For
Worker 5 Chops GH Gems For and STOPS (Thanks for the tip) :hatsoff:

Worker 6 Chops GH Gems For and STOPS

York Settler moves 1N GH For

Galley 2 moves 1E, 1SE to 1SE of London
2 Spies from London board Galley 2

Scout moves into Vladivostok
Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Dhoomstriker · Jul 28, 2016

Jersey Joe said:
What about MPs for Lyons, London, and Hamburg ?

I suppose that at some point, we'll need to build Archers. But, as long as we keep whipping and keep adding sources of Happiness, and we also watch out for AIs that we are at war with coming to attack said Cities, then there won't be much of a need for Military Police Units in the short term.

It's -1 Unhappiness from City Sizes 3 through 5 and only when we hit Size 6 is it -2 Unhappiness.

Once we're running Hereditary Rule, a Size 5 City will essentially get +2 Happiness (1 less Unhappiness and +1 Happiness) from having a Military Police Unit, but so far, it's only been Paris and XO Cognac that have had Unhappy citizens due to our aggressive empire-wide whipping approach.

Axe 3 is standing by near London to act as a Military Police Unit, if needed, although I'm thinking that he'll probably see action again in the fields soon (Worker stealing from Churchill) once our Peace Treaty expires in 4 turns.

Jersey Joe said:
(A stack at 1E of Cologne is vulnerbule to attack from Berlin)

True, but make your stack big enough and you'll deter City Defence Units from attacking your stack, as they tend to only come out of their Cities for opportunistic kills, such as when you only have 1 Unit there or particularly when your Unit is adjacent to their City on a Road so that they can attack, kill, and retreat to the safety of the City all in the span of the AI's turn.

Anyway, I'm fine with stopping to discuss the situation; we've got to make sure that the Active Player feels comfortable with whatever he/she is doing.

Jersey Joe said:
If Capture Cologne

I suppose that for this case, we could also have Axeman 5 head toward Cologne to garrison the City.

If we get a quick Cease Fire and then Open Borders, we can heal up, then, say, park our troops at 1 SE of Munich (in Russian territory), waiting up to a turn or two for a chance to capture that City, while leaving enough defenders in our captured Cities to hold our captured Cities against enemy attacks. For example, Hamburg might 2-pop-whip an Axeman and then overflow those Hammers into City Walls, having 2 Axemen City Defenders behind City Walls. Or, we'd simply get 2 Axemen and send another one toward Munich to defend it. If Munich doesn't look capturable, we could divert our troops toward Alex.

As I indicated in my edited message above, please don't give a tech to Alex if asked for one, nor to Frederick if we do get a Cease Fire and he asks for a tech, so that we can remain flexible in declaring war on either of them.

An AI won't trade us Gold per Turn or a Resource (which are both per-turn trading items) for single-issue items (such as a lump sum of Gold or a tech).

In the event of a Peace Treaty, you can actually get both types of trading items (per-turn and single-issue).

Jersey Joe said:
Scout moves into Vladivostok

Our Scout is on a Road on the Deer, so we could also move 1 SW after moving into Vlad.

If it weren't for those Peaks in Scandinavia, we'd have already seen that area by zig-zagging with our Scout, but those Peaks have forced us to double-back a bit. We don't have to explore every square, but with the flatland square to the south-east of where I'm suggesting that we go, we'll be able to get back on track quickly after this minor detour.

Jersey Joe said:
Sorry about the messed up directions (wrote those directions after celebrating with the troops)

As long as the Commander of our Legions (you) can interpret what you wrote, I don't mind what kind of chicken scratch our Commander is scribbling down as his war plans, on the eve after the grand celebration in Hamburg, as long as those plans translate into the intended results.

I'm fine with your plan. Good luck!

Jersey Joe · Jul 28, 2016

Fred's Spy failed to get this PPP, it went as planned.

Turn 87, 700BC
Trade Horseback Riding to Hatty for 20 gold.
A Chariot pulls off a daring raid and captures Cologne (killing an Axeman in the process) :cheers:

HA 5 kills the Archer which was menacing Cologne.
Axe 4 kills the Spearman who was trash talking him.
We negotiate a Cease Fire with Fredrick.

Turn 88, 675BC
2 Chariots in Hamburg Load on a Galley which leaves Hamburg in an easterly Direction (next turn Galley moves 2E and Chariots unload 1SE)
Work boat leaves York heading north to net Fish for Gem City.
Spy leaves Orleans following the road SW (going to a big card game 3S of Paris)

Here are the Logs:
Session Turn Log from 700 BC to 675 BC:

Spoiler :

AutoLog:

Spoiler :

I gave the victorious Horse Archer (in Cologne) a Combat 1 promotion. Both the victorious Chariot (in Cologne) and Axeman (in Hamburg) have Combat 1 promotions and this last battle earned them a second promotion.
We already have a Medic. I generally favor the Combat line of promotions. However, an old report indicates there are archers in Munich so maybe the Chariot could benefit from Cover 1.

Here is the Save.

Dhoomstriker · Jul 28, 2016

Nicely played! :cool:

Jersey Joe said:
Fred's Spy failed to get this PPP, it went as planned.

Great, we really needed a lucky break like that, after some of the bad luck that we've had on high-success-chance rolls!

Jersey Joe said:
2 Chariots in Hamburg Load on a Galley which leaves Hamburg in an easterly Direction (next turn Galley moves 2E and Chariots unload 1SE)

I suppose that that approach is fine, but it's not necessary if we can get Open Borders with Frederick.

Frederick won't Open Borders because we recently Closed Borders with him (by us declaring war on him) and he hasn't forgotten.

In a test game, I declared war on Alex, ripped up his empire, and Cease Fired 2 turns later. He wouldn't Open Borders again because he hadn't forgotten us Closing Borders, but since he is at war with Frederick, by us declaring war on Frederick, Alex was immediately willing to Open Borders with us.

So, the "shared war ally" status trumps petty bickering over who spilled the milk.

Thus, we probably should declare war on Alex this turn in order to get Open Borders with Frederick on this turn. Alex doesn't have anything to trade us first (he has 0 Gold available for trade). We could wait, but then if the two of them make peace, we'd have to wait until a random number dice roll for Frederick to decide to forget that we Closed Borders with him, which is a risk that I'd rather we don't take.

Frederick also has some Units which sort of look as though they are heading toward Alex, but in the most round-about way by going west, south, east, and only then being able to go south again. I wonder if it's because the Resources on Rivers by Berlin messed up Frederick such that he felt that there wasn't a need to build Roads on those Resources and thus didn't give himself a highway to Greece, and thus decided that walking through the GH For squares gave him better defensive terrain in which to walk? Or, maybe he's not headed toward Alex, but if he isn't, then why are his Units angled in a way that makes them look like they are being funnelled through the Peaks toward Alex?

Spoiler :

Frederick appears to have just learned Mysticism. We could sell him one of Meditation or Writing for 50 Gold. Since 50 Gold represents 2 turns of 100% Espionage at the moment, I think that we want his Gold. I don't really want to encourage other AIs to go down the Religious tech path (toward Feudalism) by having cheaper piggyback research due to other AIs knowing those Religious techs, such as Meditation. Stalin already knows Writing so Stalin can't piggyback off of that tech if we give Writing to Frederick, and it's a bit late for Frederick to get +1 Open Borders positive Diplo bonus with any AI (hopefully, Frederick will be dead within the 25 turns that it would take for him to get said Diplo bonus). If Stalin and Frederick wanted to Open Borders with each other, they could at any time due to Stalin having Writing. With Hamburg captured and Munich hopefully soon-to-be-captured, there's less of a risk of Frederick spamming Culture-producing Libraries in his Cities with 0 Culture.

So, I'd suggest this trade:
50 Gold from Frederick <-> Writing

Jersey Joe said:
going to a big card game 3S of Paris

You're so hilarious, man! "Dear, Hatty. Please accept this gift of Macau. We haven't invited the local Portuguese, nor have we invited all of the shady characteres in the realm to a gambling party in your honour, no, we have not. Not at all." :mischief:

Jersey Joe said:
Both the victorious Chariot (in Cologne) and Axeman (in Hamburg) have Combat 1 promotions and this last battle earned them a second promotion.
We already have a Medic. I generally favor the Combat line of promotions. However, an old report indicates there are archers in Munich so maybe the Chariot could benefit from Cover 1.

I, too, like Combat Promotions, but with Frederick having so many Melee Units around, perhaps Shock on the Axeman will be best, to deter Frederick from attacking Hamburg once we declare war on him again.

Chariots, unfortunately, can't creep up on Archers under cover due to their very nature of rushing headlong into battle. I.e. Cover is not a Promotion that mounted Units can take. So, Combat II it is for the Chariot.

We should promote our Units this turn, so that they can heal to full health that much faster.

Although I'd love to have a Granary in Hamburg, we could probably wait until after we get Mathematics to put a Chop into it before 1-pop-whipping it, if not even putting 2 Chops into it, meaning that we can build Units out of Hamburg in the meantime.

Of course, it's T88 now and we wouldn't be able to non-cold-whip a Unit until T92, meaning that it could only move on T93, which is rather a long time to wait.

The nice part is that if we can capture Munich, we could relatively quickly send some of the surviving Units to help garrison Hamburg.

That fact just leaves us worrying about Cologne--do we "waste" a Horse Archer by leaving it in Cologne to defend the City? Maybe. What we should probably do is send both Warrior 1 (in Orleans) and Axe 5 to guard Cologne, making the City's overall strength appear a bit stronger with an extra defender in there, and also making it impossible to "one combat snipe" Cologne like we just did.

Let's count our Spies:
2 from London
1 in Lyons
Paris can complete one on T89: 20 H + 29 overflow H
XO Cognac can complete one on T89 and one on T90: 39 H + 38 overflow H + 1 more turn of Hammers
Orleans already built one
Orleans can put Hammers into one on T88, then 1-pop-whip it on T89

That's 8 Spies.

If we want to get 2 more Spies out of Paris by 2-pop-whipping a Spy on T91, we would have to get at most 29 Hammers in overflow Hammers, Hammers made next turn, and Hammers made the turn afterward.

We'll have 14 Hammers already overflowing.
We'll make 3 Hammers per turn when building a Spy and then a second Spy.
So, that's 20 Hammers, leaving us only allowed to make 9 Hammers this turn, while we're set to make 15 Hammers.

So, on T88, Paris could work:
Wheat, Fur, and 1 Sci, making 7 Hammers

We could also plan to get another Spy from Orleans by 1-pop-whipping it on T91.

We could also plan to get another Spy from Lyons by 1-pop-whipping it on T91.

Those 4 extra Spies would arrive late and thus could be used to try to steal the cheaper techs, such as Hinduism and Monotheism. Or, we could simply delay the City gift to Hatty.

Now, that's a lot of focus on building Spies, so our fighting is going to get tougher without new troops coming online for a while, except when Hamburg and Cologne can finally whip out a couple of more Units.

Stalin has a Scout who looks like he'll meet Joao. We need Open Borders with Russia for the Trade Routes, so I don't see any choice but to let them meet each other.

When we finally get out of our "world's biggest gambling party" mentality and get back to building troops, it will be nice to take down some of Stalin's nearby Cities, probably resettling Vladivostok (since it's a terrible City right now but could be much better if resettled) and likely resettling Yakutsk (it's in an all right location, but it could be better if resettled).

So, maybe it will be best to just keep our navy around Germany.

We shouldn't really need to shuttle our troops to take down Munich if we're okay with declaring war on Alex now just to be able to Open Borders with Frederick and it would actually be faster to unload the Chariots by moving Galley 1 into Hamburg, then having the Chariots Unload with all of their movement points available to them (as opposed to Unloading when not in a City, which uses up all of a Unit's movement points).

I'm still not sure what to do about Hatty. We only really get one shot for stealing techs at a great discount if we don't declare war on her and recapture the City that we gift to her. One option is to gift her multiple Cities, declare war on her, immediately recapture those Cities, then get a fast Cease Fire from all of the War Success of capturing Cities, so that she won't spam Military Units. If she won't Open Borders with us after a war, Fair and Forthright Trading from selling/gifting her Civil Service should get us Open Borders again, so that she can spread Missionaries to us.

It seems that she has picked Literature and thus is likely to go for the free Great Artist from Music before we'd be able to steal the necessary techs out from under her to beat her to Music. Oh well, at least we won't be tempted to detour from our planned tech path.

If we recapture the 3 S of Paris City, we'll have the option of sending all surviving Spies back to that City and re-gifting the City in the future for another round of tech stealing at a great discount.

So, that's one approach.

For every City that we gift, we need a Chariot to immediately recapture said City, which is going to be hard to coordinate in the short term, given how we hardly have any Military Units and our production is being put into pumping out Spies.

Another approach would be to let Hatty keep that City and hopefully build a Road all the way to us. We've long known that she is on our continent due to the value of her Trade Routes.

If we let her keep that City for a while, we could later plan to have another gift City at 3 N of XO Cognac (NW of Paris), so the surviving Spies could be sent there, instead. Thanks to the Culture from The Great Lighthouse, that location is viable for giving Hatty a second gift City.

I'm actually leaning toward this approach of not recapturing our first gift City until later. Later, we could recapture both gift Cities at the same time as each other later. By gifting the City at 3 S of Paris, Hatty won't have a Food Resource to work (Paris' Culture should ensure that we keep control of the Wheat), so she won't be able to spam a lot of whipped Military Units, and she would thus be likely to waste time sending Workers and City Defenders our way. She might even be daring enough to send a Missionary to her own City at 3 S of Paris--AIs don't tend to spread Religions to Cities that already have a Religion except when said City is their own City or else all other potential-target Cities have already received a Religion.

After Worker 1 Roads the Wheat, it could build a Road on the G Riv For at 1 NW of Paris, to speed up the delivery of surviving Spies to the north-west targeted second gift City location.

There's even a small chance that Hatty would Liberate the gift City back to us--probably not, since she makes Culture all of her own and would hire an Artist Specialist to speed up Culture production as per earlier testing, but there's a chance that an AI whose City's nearby squares are swamped with our Culture could gift us that City after owning it for 4 turns, 14 turns, 24 turns, or 34 turns exactly. I don't think that we can count on this possibility, though.

Of course, if Hatty builds a City between now and T97 (or whenever we gift her a City at 3 S of Paris), then we'll need to revisit this idea and plan to declare war on her, since we'd also need to gift Lyons, and it won't make sense for her to keep Lyons.

As for Stalin, it would be nice to eventually go for his nearby coastal Cities, once we build a new military force after having built our Spies. Razing any of his Cities that have 0 Culture in them won't give a diplomatic penalty, and we'd just need to maintain our captured territory long enough to get a Cease Fire with him. Anyway, it's something to think about for the future, but it does make the idea of leaving our Galleys close to Frederick more attractive of an option.

When we finally have time to go after Joao, we could do so over land, particularly if we're going to stay peaceful with Hatty for quite some time.

If we were to capture 3 of Stalin's nearby coastal Cities (probably razing and resettling 2 of them) plus his City to the south-east of Munich, we'd earn ourselves some nice Cities and would have a pretty clear path toward the dark green AI (likely the Ottomans), whose Culture we see due south-east of Munich.

Spoiler :

We could then plan to Chop The Forbidden Palace somewhere, perhaps in Munich or in the Currently-Russian City to the south-east of Munich.

Speaking of Chopping, I still think that it will be wise to plan to Chop an Aqueduct and The Hanging Gardens in our Gems City in England.

We'll probably put two 20-Hammer Chops from the Gems squares into a Granary and then can save the rest of the Chops until we've got Mathematics from Hatty. The second Gems Mine might end up being a 30-Hammer Chop, depending upon the timing of when we'd want to start working it versus when we get Mathematics.

I don't think that Frederick would be able to redeclare war on while at war with Alex, but just in case he could, we could Promote Chariot 8 in Cologne this turn, but only move Chariot 8 and Horse Archer 5 into Hamburg next turn, when Axeman 5 and Warrior 1 will arrive in Cologne. Or, we could just choose to leave Horse Archer 5 in Cologne as a City Defender, since Berlin is only 2 turns away from being able to attack Cologne.

We might as well move Spy 2 from Lyons to the planned gambling party location now, since I don't see us needing to steal Monarchy early from Hatty given how we currently don't have any Unhappy citizens and will get +1 Happiness from the Gems Mine next turn.

Dhoomstriker · Jul 29, 2016

All of that said, I do have a bit of a radical idea that we could also consider implementing.

Our Units are a bit out of position, but we could still make it work.

The idea would be to forget about Munich for now, especially with Frederick funnelling his troops toward Alex.

We can still declare war on Alex and get Open Borders with Frederick and scout out what's in Munich, but it strikes me that Munich acts as a natural barrier between Stalin and us.

Once we've captured Munich, we'll have to defend Munich well when we go to war with Stalin.

But, let's say that we sent our troops to raze Yakutsk and capture Vlad.

Vlad only has an Archer defender, and while it could whip another defender, it doesn't have Roads going to it, so the City is pretty isolated.

Instead of razing and resettling Vlad, we'd gift Vlad to Churchill. WHAAAAAT?

Well, Churchill and Stalin already know each other.

Vlad, at Size 2, would be Size 1 when captured, so Churchill couldn't whip a Unit there, and it would take him 10 turns after the City comes out of City Revolt for Churchill to get the 19 Food needed for him to get to Size 2, so it's not like the City would be very productive for him.

We could then afford to raze Nottingham while keeping Churchill alive, then only gift York once we've resettled Nottingham.

We'd raze and resettle Yakutsk in the short term.

Stalin's troops would be unable to reach us since he doesn't have Open Borders with Frederick--we'd have to watch for them Opening Borders with each other on each turn.

With a couple of more troops whipped out of Hamburg, we could probably also capture the City with the 3 Fish when Stalin is ready to Cease Fire, then Cease Fire after capturing that City.

We could then later raze Vlad once we have given Churchill a new City, giving us more time to make that possibility happen.

In this way, we'd make better use of the Chariots that loaded into Galley 1, as we could sail 3 NE and then unload the Chariots at 4 NE, such that they could walk 1 E to be outside of the Cultural Borders by Vlad.

Galley 4 (on Orleans' Fish) would wake up and come to join the transportation of troops.

We could forget about the trickiness of gifting Vlad to Churchill and could just raze it, but if Stalin has a Settler ready, he'd beat us to resettling the City, so I think that gifting Vlad to Churchill would be the way to go.

In this way, Frederick might send most of his troops south and even finally take down Athens, which would make the City's Cultural Defences go away, making it easier for us to capture, easier for us to build a Road toward Athens, and would allow us to settle a City to the north of Athens without having to capture Athens.

Another advantage is that while Stalin doesn't have Mysticism, he can't whip Monuments, so he won't get angered for us razing his Cities now. But, he would get angered later if he were to first have the chance to whip Monuments in those Cities.

EDIT: We could also have London build a Spy this turn and 2-pop-whip it next turn.

If we did so:
T88 8 H go into a Spy this turn
T89 68 Hammers in a Spy plus 6 H go in this turn
T90 18 + 28 + 6 + 6 H = 58 H going into the Monastery by the end of this turn
T91 Complete the Monastery with at least 4 overflow H
T92 Get at least 10 Hammers going into a Missionary (4 H overflow plus easily make 6 H)
T93 1-pop-whip the Missionary
T94 Missionary exists and boards a Galley
T95 Missionary unloads in Orleans and can move this turn
T96 Missionary arrives in gift City with partial movement points and spreads in gift City
T96 Revolt to Christianity
T97 We can start stealing techs if we don't want to wait for additional Spies to get their full Stationary Bonus

EDIT: Hmmm, it seems that Frederick and Stalin DO have Open Borders with each other. Still, I think that the plan has merit, as Stalin would still need a few turns to march toward Hamburg.

Stalin does have 8 for iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold, compared to Frederick's 6, but the maximum value is 12, so 8 is still pretty decent. That's 8 turns until Stalin will talk with equal War Success, and that number goes down the more War Success that we earn.

Dhoomstriker · Jul 29, 2016

Anyway, there are things that we would do regardless of who our next victim is going to be, so we can do those things and then decide once we have a bit more information available to us next turn.

Suggested PPP

T88, 675 BC

EDIT: Paris keeps working: Wheat, Deer, and Copper (we can 2-pop-whip a Horse Archer on T91 instead of a Spy)

Lyons works: Fish and Fur (grow in 2 turns instead of in 3 turns)

London builds Spy

Hamburg builds Horse Archer? Axeman?

Cologne builds Axeman (working the Sheep + Iron for a turn would allow us to 1-pop-whip an Axeman)

Trade:
50 Gold from Frederick <-> Writing

Declare war on Alex

Trade:
Open Borders with Frederick

(Unfortunately, we can't ask Frederick to attack Athens since we haven't revealed Athens ourselves)

EDIT: Trade for 4 Gold per Turn, Wheat, and Cow from Stalin <-> Copper (since he already has Iron and we don't need Copper due to us having Iron)

Chariot 8 (in Cologne) promotes to Combat II and stays there to heal (we can board Galley 3 next turn)

Galley 4 (on Orleans' Fish) wakes up and moves NE > E toward Hamburg

Axeman 4 (in Hamburg) promotes to (CombatII? Shock? Cover? make a choice) and stays there to heal

Wake up Spy 2 (in Lyons) and move him toward 3 S of Paris

Wake up Chariot 7 (in Hamburg) and move into Munich to see what's going on in the area, then move to the G Cottage Road at 1 W of Munich to see what's in Berlin

Wake up Warrior 1 (in Orleans) and move him to the G Riv at 1 SW of Cologne
Move Axe 5 to the G Riv at 1 SW of Cologne

T89

Orleans 1-pop-whips the Spy

London 2-pop-whips the Spy

Worker 4 (1 NE + 2 N of York) Chops the GH for into York
Settler settles a Gems City with a fun name, builds a Granary, and works the Fish
Worker 5 Chops the GH Gems For into the new City
Worker 6 builds a Mine on the GH Gems square
Work Boat 4 nets the new City's Fish

Paris' Settler moves into Lyons
Paris' Settler boards the Galley in Lyons
The Galley in Lyons sails 2 S

XO Cognac's Settler moves to Paris' Wheat

Galley 2 (1 SE of London) moves into Orleans
Spy 3 Unloads in Orleans and heads toward Paris
Spy 5 Unloads in Orleans and heads toward Paris

Worker 1 moves to the G Riv at 1 SW of Paris
Worker 2 builds a Road on the GH Sheep

Scout moves S G > S G

Here's where we should decide upon going after Stalin or Munich next

If we choose to go after Stalin next...
Galley 1 (at 1 NE of Hamburg) moves 2 NE toward Russia

Galley 5 moves 1 E (into Hamburg) > 1 NE to 1 NE of Hamburg (we can cut on Unit Supply costs by not loading troops into the Galley this turn but would load them next turn before Galley 5 moves next turn)

Horse Archer 5 (in Cologne) boards Galley 3 at 2 N of Cologne
Chariot 8 (in Cologne) boards Galley 3 at 2 N of Cologne
(Galley 3 can stay in Hamburg next turn to give those Units an extra turn of healing in a City with a Medic in it, or we could move further east of Hamburg and have the Medic be on another Galley on the same square.)
Galley 3 moves 2 E (to 1 W of Hamburg)

Jersey Joe · Jul 29, 2016

Many interesting ideas.
London hammers:
T88 Horse(3)+Fur(1)+Prophet(2)+City Center(1)+overflow(1) = 8 (also working Fish)
T89 Horse(3)+Stone(3)+Prophet(2)+City Center(1) = 9 and 8+2 pop whip(60) = 68 (no citizen to work fish)
T90 18 +28 +9 = 55 Whip Monastery. 55+30+9-60 = 34
T91 34+Stone(3)+Prophet(2)+City Center(1) = 40
T92 Missionary exists and boards Galley

Here is what I was planning for the Capture of Munich:
It gives the 2 hurt Horse Archers 2 turns to heal.
Do not offer Open Borders to Fredrick.

t88 Galley with 2 Chariots is 1E of Hamburg

t89 Galley moves 1NE (maybe see what is in Russian city), 1SE unloads 2 Chariots 1SE G For:, HA+Chariot move 1E G For
Cologne HA moves 2N onto galley which moves to 1e of hamburg HA switches into galley which moves 1E into Hamburg;

t90 empty galley moves 2W; 2 chariots move 1SE G For; 2 Chariots leave Hamburg move 1E Sheep, 1E G For; HA loads onto Galley in Hamburg

t91 2 Chariots move 1S G, 1SW G For (Russian territory); 2 Chariots move 1E G For; Galley leaves Hamburg moves 2E and unloads 2 HA 1SE G For;

t92 If Munich is not overly defended, declare war and attack.

I like the idea postponing the attack and using Munich as a buffer. Waiting to capture it does simplify a few logistic problems.

I like the idea of razing and resettling Nottingham since it looks like we will benefit from the investment. However, I do not see the profit in capturing and razing the Northern Russian cities so we can rebuild them.

Question: Were are we going to get the unit or 2 we will need to recapture the Gift city?

Dhoomstriker · Jul 29, 2016

Jersey Joe said:
Many interesting ideas.
London hammers:
T88 Horse(3)+Fur(1)+Prophet(2)+City Center(1)+overflow(1) = 8 (also working Fish)
T89 Horse(3)+Stone(3)+Prophet(2)+City Center(1) = 9 and 8+2 pop whip(60) = 68 (no citizen to work fish)
T90 18 +28 +9 = 55 Whip Monastery. 55+30+9-60 = 34
T91 34+Stone(3)+Prophet(2)+City Center(1) = 40
T92 Missionary exists and boards Galley

If that were a Military Unit that we'd use in battle, getting it 2 turns sooner could be worth that cost. However, we don't need the Missionary to exist until T94, and we have some Happiness to spare, so it would be rather unfortunate not to work the 6-Food Fish square, such that we'd essentially be stealing Food away from future items to whip. Are you thinking at the back of your mind that we'd want to gift the City to Hatty before any of our Spies get the full 50% Stationary Bonus? Would keeping that option open be worth delaying our next build item out of London?

Jersey Joe said:
t89 Galley moves 1NE (maybe see what is in Russian city)

It seems that from water, we cannot see water that is 2 squares away (without Optics), but we can see any land squares that is 2 squares away (flatland, Hills, or Peaks).

So, we'd have to be 2 squares away to see, and I think that that square is 3 squares away.

Jersey Joe said:
t92 If Munich is not overly defended, declare war and attack.

If we don't mind declaring war on Alex now, on T89 our Units could move to and arrive at 1 SE of Munich and then we'd keep open the option of attacking Munich on T90 or T91 if we were to find that the City had been temporarily emptied of defenders, like what happened at Cologne.

The nice part about getting Open Borders now is that we can see what's inside of Munich to make an informed decision before we commit our troops.

It wasn't clear to me whether or not you are against declaring war on Alex. If you're against it, then let's just plan to go for Stalin instead of spending several turns trying to get into position at Munich and then possibly being disappointed at what we find defending Munich but with us having already committed our military's movement for several turns getting in and out of the Munich area without a fight.

Jersey Joe said:
I like the idea postponing the attack and using Munich as a buffer. Waiting to capture it does simplify a few logistic problems.

I don't see an option to ask Stalin to Cancel Trades with Frederick, so they must have Opened Borders with each other within the last 10 turns. Otherwise, we'd only need Stalin to be Cautious or higher toward us (which he is) and Cautious or lower toward Frederick (which he is, as he is Annoyed toward Frederick) and a tech to bribe Stalin to stop trading with Frederick (and thereby have Stalin Close Borders with Frederick).

I'm not sure of the exact turn when it happened, but:
Turn 79, 900 BC Stalin and Frederick do not have Open Borders with each other
Turn 81, 850 BC Stalin and Frederick have Open Borders with each other

I'm not sure how the 10-turn counter works, but at most it would be 10 turns AFTER our Turn 81, so on (or before) Turn 92 we should certainly be able to ask Stalin to Cancel Trading with Frederick, which would cause them to Close Borders with each other, giving us the Munich buffer.

Of course, alternative options exist, such as capturing Munich and gifting it to Churchill (who won't Open Borders with Stalin), but we'd probably lose a couple of Units in capturing Munich and then Churchill could whip Military Units in Munich before we'd be ready to capture it from him.

But, if, say, Munich only has 1 Archer defending it, then we might as well capture it.

Jersey Joe said:
I like the idea of razing and resettling Nottingham since it looks like we will benefit from the investment. However, I do not see the profit in capturing and razing the Northern Russian cities so we can rebuild them.

EDIT: A resettled Nottingham would gain +1 Coast Fish and we'd be able to work a 5-Hammer TunH Iron instead of getting a 2-Hammer City Centre square (the net difference being 4 Hammers, so the equivalent of having a PH Mine to work).

A resettled Yakutsk would gain +1 Coast Fish and +1 Whale (3 Food with a Lighthouse even without Optics).

A resettled Vlad would probably steal +1 Coast Fish to actually have enough Food to work the Silver and grow sufficiently to whip items, and at times it could optionally steal a second Coast Fish. With the Deer improved (3 Food), a Lighthouse built, and the Silver Mined, we'd only make 2 Food per turn.

A general heuristic that I got from kossin is: Cities should have 6 or more surplus Food, but even 6 surplus Food isn't a lot.

We don't actually have to raze any of the Cities and could just keep them as placed. If the Cities had any Buildings to capture or were larger-sized Cities, I'd probably just keep them. But, the Cities are going to be Size 1 (or maybe Size 2 for Yakutsk if we amphibiously assault it before it whips), so it doesn't seem like a major loss to raze and resettle them. Yes, everything has its cost, but if we can get enough Food to work the Silver Resources constantly while still growing and whipping a lot, I believe that the investment will pay off for the Russian Cities.

EDIT: Out of those 3 Cities, Vlad is really the only one that is questionable to keep. The others have sufficient Food where they are settled; it's just that they could do better and could thus become good candidates for hiring several Specialists later in the game by having access to 2 Coast Fish each.

Jersey Joe said:
Question: Were are we going to get the unit or 2 we will need to recapture the Gift city?

Right now, I'm thinking that if Hatty has 3 Cities when it comes time to gift her a City, let her keep the gift City. We can make a new gift City to the north-west of Paris, thanks to the Culture from The Great Lighthouse expanding to that City Centre location.

If we have to gift Lyons, then one Chariot would be whipped from Lyons and one Chariot would be whipped from the gift City, with both Chariots being whipped before gifting the Cities.

EDIT: Note that by working the Stone instead of the Fish in York, we earned the ability to work a netted Fish in the Gems City sooner, paying back our Food investment after 1 turn and earning more than our investment due to the Work Boat otherwise taking probably 3 turns instead of 1 turn to complete. But, generally, I'd avoid not working Food squares, with rare exceptions, such as how we could 2-pop-whip another Spy in London.

Another, and perhaps better option for London, would be to forget the micro that I suggested, 2-pop-whip a Horse Archer, and overflow into a Spy, giving us another Combat I Horse Archer. Actually, I like the sounds of that approach much better, as we're extremely short on Military Units.

EDIT: We could also just promote our Axeman to Combat II if that's what you want to do. If we are going for Stalin, we know that we'll be going up against an Archer in Vlad, but we don't know what we'd face in Yakutsk, nor what we'd face in the City with 3 Fish Resources visible in its big fat cross, so pick whatever you feel like. To me, the more important part is to pick the Promotion before we heal, especially if we plan to take that Axeman into battle on a boat, so that we can be at full health in time for a fight. We could even pick Cover if you want.

EDIT: As for Stalin...
Here's the thinking:
As we've seen with Germany, the longer that an AI is at war, the more Military Units that it builds. So, it would be nice to get into a war, make some headway against Stalin, then Cease Fire as soon as we can, so that he doesn't build too many extra Military Units.

In playing games where I had enough Espionage Points to see what BtS AIs are doing, I've seen them go full-out on Military Unit production once a war starts, then switch to building Buildings as soon as the war ends.

In order to minimize the time that we're at war with Stalin, it helps to get some War Success without him getting too much War Success. Razing/capturing Cities is one way to do so.

Right now, there isn't a Road to Vlad and Yakutsk, so those Cities are relatively isolated. If we were to try to capture and hold Vlad, we might not have enough forces to do so. If we were to raze Vlad, Stalin would probably resettle it before we could get there. If we were to gift Vlad to someone (Churchill, or maybe Joao since Joao will soon meet Stalin, but I'd still favour Churchill so that we can attack Nottingham and keep Churchill alive), then Vlad would block Stalin from REXing back into the void created by razing Yakutsk, and would "hold" the Vlad area for us to grab later with a City that has a decent enough amount of Food to be useful.

Whether we raze Yakutsk or we keep it probably won't be too big of a deal in the end, although I'd like to get a couple of Cities which can start growing quickly and just focus on growth, so that we'll be ready to pump out a Great Person or two from said City once we start running our Golden Ages.

Cities that are settled with a lot of Food and multiple Forests are good candidates, meaning a resettled Nottingham and a resettled Yakutsk, where we simply focus on Chopping out a Granary, a Lighthouse, and growing those Cities without much or any whipping at all.

Having 2 Fish to work is significant, as we go from +6 Food to +10 Food, getting us to grow City Sizes very quickly.

Other Cities can continue whipping and eventually growing into working Mines and later Workshops, while these Cities grow quickly, free of Motherland Unhappiness so that they can achieve high population levels, and can also sustain a lot of Specialists being hired while only having a couple of citizens working Food-earning squares. I.e. At City Size 8, you can hire 6 Specialists (under Caste System, which we could slip into during a Golden Age), needing 16 Food (8 population points x 2 Food each = 16) and getting 14 Food from the City Centre and 2 Fish Resources (2 + 6 + 6 = 14), thereby only slowly losing 2 Food per turn out of your Food storage while you have 6 Specialists hired.

York can be used to generate a Settler to replace Notthingham, while Argent could be used to generate a Settler to replace Yakutsk, using some Chops or Whips to finish off said Settlers, and with those Cities otherwise being "out of the way" such that Military Units built in them would be delayed in getting to the front lines.

If we can, say, by taking down those two Cities, reduce Stalin's time before he's willing to make a Cease Fire, then we can try to dump all of our Units (none of our Units will be needed to garrison the first two Cities) by Stalin's Coastal City that has 3 Fish and try to take the City then Cease Fire with our army having been decimated but overall victorious in its mission.

By then, we'll have stolen some techs and will probably have Construction, so we could build Catapults for future wars, such as for dealing with Joao.

Stalin will also be considerably weaker with less Resources available to him, making him easier to conquer later, while we'd have some Cities that can grow big for Specialist-hiring and for increasing our Domestic Trade Route yield.

The City with 3 Fish is the real prize, but I don't see how we can easily capture that City at the start of the war and hold it from counter-attack with our given limited forces, so the idea is to knock Stalin down a couple of pegs by taking his less-well-defended backwater Cities first, not garrisoning those Cities, reducing his time to be willing to Cease Fire, then swoop in and steal the 3-Fish City out from under him while his troops are hopefully trying to find a path to us around German Culture instead of defending the 3-Fish City, and Cease Fire before Stalin knows what hit him.

Meanwhile, hopefully, Frederick will have sent the bulk of his forces at Alex, ideally capturing Athens for us. But, even if Frederick doesn't capture Athens for us, then by both of us being at war with Alex, we'd be able to get Open Borders with Frederick theoretically infinite times after every Cease Fire where we make a bit of progress against him and then Cease Fire again before he can counter-attack, with his exploitable quick-to-talk-after-a-war-declaration trait.

Jersey Joe · Jul 29, 2016

If the Galley North of Cologne sails over to England and picks up Woodie he could capture Churchill's worker (assuming worker builds pasture) just after peace treaty ends.

As usual, I try to show all changes in red.

I have no problem with declaring war on Alex. I was a little concerned about asking Fred for Open Borders this turn (Fred has many troops close to our border).

Suggested PPP:

Diplo Policy
Christianity? No
Stop trading with another AI? No
Give a Resource? Yes (There isn't an enforced 10 turns of Peace for saying yes)
Peace deal or Open Borders? No--we should be the ones to decide when these deals happen
Give Horseback Riding? No
Give a Tech other than Horseback Riding? No to Frederick (since we'll be attacking him
soon), No to Alex (since we'll be attacking him soon), yes to anyone else
Join a war? No
Trade a tech for a tech and/or Gold? No--let's discuss tech trades and put them in a PPP

Reasons for stopping:
We meet a new AI;
One of our Cities is threatened;
Something in the plan sounds wrong;

Turn 88 675 BC (Completing the turn)
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

Diplo:
Trade Writing to Fred for alll his gold (50)
Declare war on Alex
Open Borders with Fred
Trade Copper to Stalin for 4 Gold per Turn, Wheat, and Cow
If we declare war on Staliin (I know there is no Peace Treaty) does our Reputation take a hit?

Paris (done)
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (Lyon's Galley)
Works: Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac (done)
build: Switches to Settler and 3 pop-whips (3S of Paris)
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse

Orleans
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow,

Lyons (done)
build: 2-pop whip Galley
Works: Fish, Fur

London
build: Switches Monastery to Spy
Works: Fish, Horse, Fur

York
build: Axeman
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Hamburg (in revolt) build Axeman:

Cologne (in revolt) build Axeman: (sheep + iron for 1 pop whip)

Chariot 8 (in Cologne) promotes to Combat 2 and heals

Axeman 4 (in Hamburg) promotes to Combat 2 and heals

Galley 4 (on Orleans' Fish) wakes up and sails 2W toward London (to pick up Spy)

Spy 2 (in Lyons) gets invited to card game at 3 S of Paris

Wake up Chariot 7 (in Hamburg) and move into Munich to see what's going on in the area, then move to the G Cottage Road at 1 W of Munich to see what's in Berlin

Wake up Warrior 1 (in Orleans) and move him to the G Riv at 1 SW of Cologne

Move Axe 5 to the G Riv at 1 SW of Cologne

Axe 3 remains active on Fur

Turn 89 650BC
Espionage Rate 100% (on Hatty)
Do not Open Borders with Joao.

Paris
build: Spy
Works: Deer, Wheat, Copper

XO Cognac
build: Spy
Works: Fish, Cow, Horse

Orleans
build: 1-pop whip Spy
Works: Fish, Cow,

Lyons
build: Chariot
Works: Fish, Fur

London
build: 2 pop whips Spy
Works: Fish, Horse

York
build: Axeman
Works: Fish

Argent:
build: Worker
Works: Iron

Hamburg (in revolt) build Axeman:

Cologne (in revolt) build Axeman: (sheep + iron for 1 pop whip)

Worker 1 moves 2SE into Paris, 1sw to G Riv, partial builds Cottage and STOPS
Worker 2 roads GH Sheep (3E of Lyons)
Worker 3 Camps Deer (1 N of Argent)
Worker 4 Finishes Chopping GH For at 1W of GH Gems For
York Settler founds City
Worker 5 Finishes Chopping GH Gems For After city is founded
Worker 6 Mines GH Gems After Chop

Paris' Settler moves into Lyons
Paris' Settler boards Galley in Lyons
Lyons' Galley sails 2S

XO Cognac's Settler moves to Paris' Wheat

Galley 2 (1SE of London) sails into Orleans and unloads 2 Spies
Spy 003 heads toward Paris
Spy 005 heads toward Paris

Galley 4 sails 1SW (1E London) and waits for Spy pickup

Scout moves 1S G, 1S G

Axe 3 remains active on Fur

~~~~~~~~~~~ Save and decide next target is northern Russian cities or Munich
Turn 90 625BC

London
build: Monastery
Works: Fish, Horse

London's Spy boards Galley 4
Galley 4 sails into Orleans and unloads
Spy 003 moves 2SW G Riv (1SW of Paris)
Spy 005 moves 2SW G Riv (1SW of Paris)

Turn 91 600BC

London
build: complete Monastery (with at least 4 overflow)
Works: Fish, Horse

Spy 003 moves 1SE G Wheat (3S Paris), 1S to join card game comments that they should be playing chemin de fer as a nod to the Orient Express
Spy 005 moves 1SE G Wheat (3S Paris), 1S to join card game and orders a snifter of XO Cognac

Turn 92

London
build: Missionary (need at least 10 hammers total for turn 93 whip)
Works: Fish, Horse

Turn 93

London
build: 1-pop whip Missionary
Works: Fish, Horse

Turn 93

London
build: 1-pop whip Missionary
Works: Fish, Horse

Turn 93

London
build: 1-pop whip Missionary
Works: Fish, Horse

Jersey Joe · Jul 30, 2016

Here is a thought:
Instead of putting Paris settler on Galley, settler moves 1NW, 1N and on turn 90 moves 1W and builds a second gift city 1S of the Fish that is to the northwest of Paris. The fish is netted so the city could grow to size 2 and whip the unit that will recapture it.

We could then gift 2 or 3 (if include Lyons) cities to Hattie. To be cheezy we could gift her a couple of scouts (1 in each city) and have Units built in Paris capture the cities and get extra promotion.

Dhoomstriker · Jul 30, 2016

Jersey Joe said:
Here is a thought:
Instead of putting Paris settler on Galley, settler moves 1NW, 1N and on turn 90 moves 1W and builds a second gift city 1S of the Fish that is to the northwest of Paris. The fish is netted so the city could grow to size 2 and whip the unit that will recapture it.

That location is secured as being ours at a later date, and until we have enough Worker turns to start building Cottages, it's not going to do a lot for us.

Meanwhile, every City that we settle which we don't have to capture makes for an easier AI to conquer.

In hindsight, with current knowledge of the scenario, I would have played it very differently:
Currency instead of Horseback Riding
REX with Galleys in all directions
Liberate and recapture multiple Cities at Hatty (without Stonehenge, it would be a lot easier to keep 0 Culture in said Cities and grow them to Size 2 first)
Get Hatty to Friendly while owning all of the land around her two initial Cities
Trade like mad with a Friendly Hatty, which is even cheaper than stealing techs and fits better with our Academy approach; stealing techs is still very efficient, but it's even cheaper to pay zero Commerce for a tech than to pay a sum of EPs for a tech

We played differently, but we could have actually settled a Gems City in England peacefully and probably could have settled 3 Cities in Scandinavia peacefully before Russia got there. Hatty has not been REXing, which is a bit of a random situation, so we're lucky that we might still be able to get some good City locations that she has yet to settle that we might not have otherwise been able to settle if she'd randomly chosen to REX. Let's not waste this opportunity.

Even if the Cities around Hatty are no better than 1 Fish (as we can see to the south-east of Lisbon) and sharing Lisbon's seafood for a second City, it's better that we settle them than let Hatty settle them and have to conquer them from a technologically-advanced AI. At any time, she can tech Feudalism and there isn't anything that we could do to stop her, and it's cheaper to settle Cities ourselves than to capture Longbow-defended Cities, when those Cities are relatively-newly-settled by an AI.

Yes, capturing mature Cities that are defended by Longbowmen is better than settling fresh Cities, but we're talking about us settling fresh Cities versus Hatty settling fresh Cities that would be more expensive in troops to conquer than to settle ourselves, and we'd get said Cities sooner by building them ourselves, seeing as how we have only a total of 1 Galley that could be used to start a war with Hatty.

In the medium-term, we should be thinking about having Lyons 2-pop-whip as many Galleys as it can, so that we can have both a northern navy and a southern navy. Joao would be easier to conquer if we took Oporto before Lisbon, denying him access to Iron at the start of a war, for example.

Jersey Joe said:
We could then gift 2 or 3 (if include Lyons) cities to Hattie.

For what reason? If we had Feudalism, then sure, we could gift 4 Cities to Hatty and Capitulate her due to getting the required 40 War Success in order to get Capitulation. Doing so might actually be a valid strategy if she ever techs Feudalism for us to steal it from her. After capitulating her, we'd be unable to capture Wonders that she has built, so we may want to consider first capturing The Apostolic Palace, and capturing her Cities is going to be far more efficient if we can settle Cities around her and keep her from expanding. We'd need to first do testing around Capitulation, though--people on the forums, I believe, have an incorrect belief that a Vassal will trade a ton of techs with you, but I think that there are still limits (perhaps WFYABTA, perhaps no trading of monopoly techs, perhaps some other restriction), so we'd need to do some testing to see what the limits actually are before deciding to Capitulate Hatty.

Otherwise, what is the purpose of gifting her Cities? Gifting a heavily-whipped City and immediately recapturing it will reset whipping Unhappiness, but gifting a newly-founded City offers no such benefit, as whipping Unhappiness won't have accumulated.

There is a cost involved with every City gift that we recapture:
- The Food box is emptied
- The Hammers are reset to zero
- Great People Points are reset to zero
- Buildings can be destroyed
- We don't get the value of the worked squares for any turn where we don't own the City
- Population points can get whipped away by an AI if we don't recapture the City immediately and if the City is larger than Size 1

There needs to be a reason to gift a City and the benefits should outweigh the costs.

Jersey Joe said:
To be cheezy we could gift her a couple of scouts (1 in each city) and have Units built in Paris capture the cities and get extra promotion.

I like the way that you are thinking, but 15 Hammers for a one-time 1 XP is a very poor trade. I'd rather have another Unpromoted Chariot than have 2 XP on another Unit from killing 2 Scouts that cost as much as a Chariot. But, listen, we can do much better:
What if 1 gifted Scout could get you ONE XP PER TURN? Yes, we can do that if we build a Catapult and gift a Scout. Each turn, the Catapult attacks the Scout with 99+% odds of winning and a chance of retreating even if we might otherwise lose the fight, so it's almost a guaranteed win, and you get 1 XP for a Catapult attacking and surviving, while the Scout stays alive. Rinse and repeat on the following turn. Do that with a stack of 5 gifted Scouts and 5 Catapults and laugh as the Great General Points start rolling in, and then after 10 turns your 0-XP Catapults have City Raider III (well, maybe a few more turns than 10 turns as you have to count logistical time of moving next to the Scout and the Scout has to start healing so you might have to wait 2 turns after the first attack for it to heal sufficiently for us to make the next attack).

Meanwhile, you get Great Generals that can be joined to existing Units... which could include, say, 5 Galleys getting 4 XP each for Flanking I + Navigation I Promotions so that you have 5 Galleys that can move 3 squares per turn (Navigation I requires Flanking I and gives naval Units +1 movement point).

Are you getting excited yet? I hope so! A fast-moving navy, near-infinite Great General Points, and eventually being able to capitulate Hatty--all very exciting stuff. But, it will be a lot easier to capture The Apostolic Palace and capitulate her if she has a smaller empire, and settling Cities adjacent to her Culture to force her to have to put Settlers on Galleys before she can expand is the recipe to make it work.

Jersey Joe said:
If the Galley North of Cologne sails over to England and picks up Woodie he could capture Churchill's worker (assuming worker builds pasture) just after peace treaty ends.

That's completely unnecessary and our Galley 2 aught to remain around London to transfer troops between England and the mainland, with our other 4 Galleys giving us the best chance of success as we can get in the war against Stalin by having 4 Galleys worth of troops able to assault the 3-Fish City after we've dealt with Vlad and Yakutsk.

The whole point of Woodsman II is that a BtS AI thinks that our Axeman can only move 1 square when our Axeman can move 2 squares, so a Woodsman II Axeman will surprise a Worker by capturing it without needing to involve a Galley.

BtS Workers are greedy--they will perform Worker actions whenever they think that they are out of range of enemy Units. Those Workers are not programmed to recognize the Woodsman II Promotion, which is the entire point of us taking that Promotion--so that we do not need a Galley to sneak up on Churchill's Workers. Vanilla (non-BtS) Workers acted differently by cowering inside of Cities whenever an enemy Unit was anywhere near to the City, so you could easily stop an AI from improving its Cities just by parking a Military Unit near to their Cities. BtS Workers are "smarter" in that they continue working under said conditions, frustratingly Chopping out Units just out of reach of most of your Units. However, a Woodman II Unit is special, because BtS Workers are not programmed to recognize it as giving a Unit an extra movement point. Woodsman II punishes BtS Workers for being so greedy by them trying to keep working when a threat is nearby and them not recognizing the Woodsman II Promotion as a way to sneak up on them.

I'd like to avoid declaring war on Churchill until we first have a City to gift to him, so that we can actually focus on capturing/razing Nottingham soon after declaring war, rather than starting a war, letting him build up Military Units, and then having a tough time conquering Nottingham (whether we raze it or we keep it, the smaller the number of defenders when we capture Nottingham, the better). One option is to first capture Vlad. Another option is to first capture Munich. Either one of those Cities could then be gifted to Churchill, after which point we could steal his Worker with our Woodsman II Unit and have our other Military Units (built in York and maybe London) move adjacent to Nottingham, then have our Units attack Nottingham on the following turn, probably also including the Woodsman II Unit being able to attack.

Jersey Joe said:
I was a little concerned about asking Fred for Open Borders this turn (Fred has many troops close to our border).

I'm not sure that I understand this concern. Frederick's troops appear to be headed toward Alex. It won't be a shorter path to Alex through our lands, so Frederick isn't likely to send anything but an exploring Unit into our territory, and even if he does, it would get teleported out of our territory to a location that we could know in advance (due to having a very accurate test game--thank you once again) before we declared war the next time. So, don't worry about Opening Borders for that reason.

My fear is that if we delay Opening Borders, Frederick could sign a Peace Treaty with Alex and then we would be unable to get Open Borders with Frederick until Frederick randomly forgets (a 1 in 10 chance each turn) that we Closed Borders with him or an extra 10 turns have passed and we can bribe Alex to declare war on Frederick again. Even if Frederick randomly forgot, without Alex being his Worst Enemy, we'd likely be Frederick's Worst Enemy and thus we would not be able to get Open Borders with Frederick.

By joining the war on Frederick's side, Frederick will be far less likely to sign a Peace Treaty with Alex, since Frederick's side will be the "clear winners" in the fight and he'd be out for blood with the confidence of having our Power fighting on Frederick's side of the fight. In that way, we keep the two of them at war so that after our next mini-war with Frederick, we'd again be able to get Open Borders with Frederick (when Frederick really starts to hate us), since Frederick will Open Borders at Furious, but not with his Worst Enemy, and with them remaining at war, Alex should continue to be the Worst Enemy (and if not, a small tech gift to Frederick after the next mini-war with Frederick would restore Alex to being Frederick's Worst Enemy). It might even be that "being on the same side in a war" will trump the "will not Open Borders with my Worst Enemy" behaviour, but then again, that situation involves us getting into the war against Alex in the first place.

Jersey Joe said:
If we declare war on Staliin (I know there is no Peace Treaty) does our Reputation take a hit?

I strongly suggest that we do not declare war on Stalin until our troops are in position to capture his Cities, so that he doesn't have turns of empire-wide troop-spamming before we start to capture his Cities. Plan for every one of his Cities to switch to building Military Units on the turn that we declare war on him. So, if, say, we land Units next to Vlad on the first turn of war, he might not have time to whip a Unit (because he'd have to cold-whip it), but if we land Units next to Vlad on a turn after the first turn of war, expect him to have put some Hammers into a Military Unit and therefore he could easily whip a Military Unit.

Stalin will hate us by -3.

Any of the AIs who are Pleased or Friendly toward Stalin will hate us by -1, even if we haven't met them, since those AIs will have met Stalin (by the very definition of having a Diplo Attitude toward Stalin, such an AI will have already met Stalin--those AIs who have not met Stalin will not have a Diplo Attitude toward him).

Of the AIs whom we have met, none of them would hate us by -1 for declaring war on Stalin, since the AIs whom we have met are not Pleased or Friendly toward Stalin.

Jersey Joe said:
Lyons (done)
build: 2-pop whip Galley
Works: Fish, Fur

I'm not sure what you mean by "done," but Lyons isn't done since it's currently working Fish and GH Riv Mine Wine. I don't mind if we work Fish and Wine on T89, since we'd still grow to Size 3 in 2 turns that way, but please switch to Fish and Fur on T88, so that we ensure that we will earn that extra 1 Food needed to grow the City in 2 turns. We need 9 Food and we make 4 Food when working Fish + Wine and we make 5 Food when working Fish + Fur. The difference between getting 10 Food instead of 9 Food may or may not make a difference in growing 1 turn faster on a future turn--if not, then getting 9 Food is just as good as getting 10 Food, if we can see a need for the extra Hammers. Personally, I would like to see Orleans keep 2-pop-whipping Galleys, so I'd emphasize a focus on Food if we don't want to sit down and do the calculations.

Jersey Joe said:
Cologne (in revolt) build Axeman: (sheep + iron for 1 pop whip)

Yes, but let's not "take" the Iron in Cologne yet, so that Orleans will automatically work the Iron whenever it's at Size 3. It may or may not make a difference; I haven't checked.

Jersey Joe said:
Galley 4 (on Orleans' Fish) wakes up and sails 2W toward London (to pick up Spy)

Please send this Galley toward Russia. We really should be using all Galleys except for Galley 2 at Russia. This point is critical to follow if we are going to declare war on Stalin, as Galley 4 is the furthest away Galley and we need it close to Russia as soon as we can get it there.

There's no need for a second Galley at England (one turn of difference for a late-arriving Spy isn't going to do much for us), but if we are going to at all be serious about capturing the 3-Food City from Stalin, we'll need to have 4 fully-loaded Galleys unloading troops there after first dealing with Vlad and Yakutsk.

We're actually going to have some tricky Galley logistics with Galley 1 having to take care of two boatloads of troops, and possibly Galley 5 also having to take care of two boatloads of troops.

Jersey Joe said:
Worker 1 moves 2SE into Paris, 1sw to G Riv, partial builds Cottage and STOPS

That's a great idea, nice catch! :goodjob:

Jersey Joe said:
Spy 003

Haha, funny stuff! :lol:

Jersey Joe said:
Galley 4 sails 1SW (1E London) and waits for Spy pickup

Please don't do that. Galley 2 is sufficient for shuttling troops between London and the mainland.

Jersey Joe said:
Axe 3 remains active on Fur

~~~~~~~~~~~ Save and decide next target is northern Russian cities or Munich

I'm going to assume that you mean to stop play at this point before figuring out the logistics of our Military Units and our 4 Galleys (not counting Galley 2). I'd probably not Skip Axeman 3's turn just yet, leaving him as the last Unit to act on any turn. That way, if our plans involve waking up a Unit who has already Fortified for the turn, an accidental keypress on the Spacebar key or the Enter key won't advance the turn before we can wake up said Unit.

Jersey Joe said:
London's Spy boards Galley 4
Galley 4 sails into Orleans and unloads

I see what you're trying to do, but without 4 Galleys at Russia, the war on Stalin is going to be a lot harder. That Spy being delayed by 1 turn by sailing on Galley 2 is an acceptable cost as such a late-arriving Spy is just going to try to steal a cheap tech such as Polytheism or perhaps Steal Treasury, so the extra turn of Stationary Bonus that we could feasibly earn would only be a difference of a couple of EPs (and a difference of 0 EPs if the Spy fails in its Mission, since 0 EPs are spent when a Spy dies, so just pretend that this Spy is the Spy who will fail its Mission), whereas only being able to drop off 6 troops at the 3-Fish City, which is a well-established City (it existed when The Great Wall was built) would likely mean not being able to capture said City... even having 4 Galleys full of troops might not be enough, but 3 Galleys full of troops almost certainly won't be enough to capture that 3-Fish City from Stalin.

We're already asking our troops to perform miracles, but let's try our best to make the miracles more possible to achieve.

Thanks!

Jersey Joe · Jul 30, 2016

Dhoom; I agree with your comments and will adjust the PPP accordingly. If it is okay with you I will just play with our posting the revisions (posting this now since I see you are online)

The "Lyons (done)" was left over from when I was playing the previous turn set and marking the cities I had whipped (in retrospect typing whipped instead of done would have been better). I left it there as a reminder that I cannot change my mind about whipping that city this turn.
I did change the tiles it would be working in the PPP and will check those agree with the actual game.

"Cologne (in revolt) build Axeman: (sheep + iron for 1 pop whip)" is a note for future reference. I just started to do that to save looking back through pages of posts to find out what our current thoughts are about something that will occur 5 turns in the future. Similarly, I have included the micro for London getting the missionary built.

My concern with Fred's troop movements is owing to my not having fought many quick limited engagement battles and not knowing how the AI will behave. I appreciate you taking time explain the likely behavior of Fred's troops. You have alleviated my concern about this matter. :goodjob:

Dhoomstriker · Jul 30, 2016

Jersey Joe said:
If it is okay with you I will just play with[out] posting the revisions

Fine by me.

Thanks for explaining your notations. It makes sense to me for you to build your future PPP as you go; it's certainly easier to keep track of our ever-changing minds that way. Heh heh. :cool:

Jersey Joe said:
since I see you are online

A user login lasts for 15 mins since the last page refresh, so sometimes a person can appear to be online after they've already high-tailed it outta here.

Jersey Joe · Jul 30, 2016

T88, 675BC:
Trade Writing to Fred for 50 gold
We Declare War on Alex
We Open Borders with Fred
Trade Copper to Stalin for 4 Gold per Turn, Wheat, and Cow

Our Chariot moving south notices that:
Munich Defended by Spearman (no promotion); Archer (no promotion); Archer (City Garrison I) and that there is a Blue glow from Munich like one of its troops is eligible for a promotion.

T89, 650
We have 923 EPs on Hatty (With the bonus we get from Gift city I estimate we need about 1150 EPs to steal 10 techs from Hatty)
No longer distracted by the Blue glow our Chariot notices:
Berlin Archer (Guerilla I); Axeman; Spearman (Combat I); Archer; (Spearman and Archer entered this turn mobht be going South)
Munich Spearman promoted to Combat I
We also findout that some Russian cities are defended by Archers.
Vladivostok Archer
Yakutsk Archer; Archer; Workboat;
St. Petersburg Archer; Archer; Worker;

In an attempt to get NobleZarkon to post:

Ruby Bay is founded next to Elie Ness in the Highlands of England.

I have not yet whipped our cities this turn. I want to check on their micro's for the next few turns. The 2 cities I have in mind are Paris and Orleans. For Paris you mentioned the possibility of 2-pop whipping a Horse Archer into a spy and I wonder if we might not do the same in Orleans (especially given the number of archers Russia has). More on this in a separate post.

Here are the logs:
Session Turn Log from 675 BC to 650 BC:

Spoiler :

Autolog:

Spoiler :

The Save:

Cactus Pete · Jul 30, 2016

Haven't looked at the save yet, but certainly seems that Joe has brought us well forward.

Have emails and voice mails in abundance to deal with, but will try to get back involved ASAP.

Where is the rest of our team?

SGOTM 23 - Xteam

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