[BTS] SGOTM 24 nostalgia

[nanoprince]

Some notes here, not for conclusion. We may check all these on demo-map later.

1. VICTORY TYPE
I agree with SOS in diplomatic victory as alternative target, but never the main target.
If we have ENOUGH MILITARY FORCE, domination victory will be much faster than diplomatic victory.
We don't have to bother with all those later techs, Physics, Electricity, Radio, Mass media which will cost at least 20 turns even though we have many G.S.s .
What's we all know is that there is hardly any Civilization 4 below deity. Barbarian 4 is always more efficient for empire, unless games under special restricts.

2. ENOUGH MILITARY FORCE
What is enough for a 220T domination? Here list some plan.
1) 150T —— about 50 fighting and siege units with enough overseas transportation in 1 fleet
2) 180T —— about 100 fighting and siege units with enough overseas transportation in 2 fleets
3) 200T —— about 150 fighting and siege units with enough overseas transportation in 3 fleets

4) for 1) 2) 3) below
We need to build about 200 fighting (considering the losses) and siege units and about 40 galleons in total.

5) That will require about 60 drafts and other about 13,000 hammers.
If we have 4000 hammers production in cities in 65 turns (135-200 turn, considering the low production of forests), we need other 9000 hammers in slavery.
That's about 300 pops killed in slavery. It is easy to do in 65 truns (135-200 turn, considering those occupied cities).
So what we actually require is MORE HAPPINESS for slavery and drafts.


3. MORE HAPPINESS
Here we can see that theaters and the Great Theater will be surely needed.
The only difference is that if we have Aesthetics/Drama before or after Astronomy.
This question may be kept for later discussions.

About the theater
Pyramids can support the population to 9 to 10(with religion). I think it is enough, taking 3-fish city as example, 3 fish +7 specialist =10 population. Theater is an investment of average 100 c 50 h for 2c/pop (with 20 food for each pop) , not so good. Of course, after we finish astronomy, we can consider it. Maybe it can be traded. The importance of Astronomy is because of trade routes and war. We should have consensus about the ROI of war already

I may still keep a door open for diplomatic victory. Physics/Electricity can be bulbed with a gain of great scientist. Radio can be obtained from liberalism. Mass media can be bulbed by great merchant and the united nation can be built with great engineer. In my opinion it may be faster than domination victory.

 

[sossos]

T62 6pop+2pop+Pyramids.
If you like it, I will write down the details.

 

[nanoprince]

That's a really a fast pyramid!
But not a balanced opening maybe.
2 cities in T62 seems to be too slow in expansion.

I played a video of 5 cities with pyramid in T78, followed with 6th cities in T81. I will upload this video in qq.
If T78 pyramid is fast enough, I think this would be much faster opening.

T62 6pop+2pop+Pyramids.
If you like it, I will write down the details.

 

[nanoprince]

This video had recorded the choice of 2 corns in capital.
I will try sitting in initial point later.

That's a really a fast pyramid!
But not a balanced opening maybe.
2 cities in T62 seems to be too slow in expansion.

I played a video of 5 cities with pyramid in T78, followed with 6th cities in T81. I will upload this video in qq.
If T78 pyramid is fast enough, I think this would be much faster opening.

 

[nanoprince]

BTW，how to download the initial file？

T62 6pop+2pop+Pyramids.
If you like it, I will write down the details.

 

[sossos]

BTW，how to download the initial file？

It's here. Click the "start" save of the team nostagia.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php

 

[sossos]

That's a really a fast pyramid!
But not a balanced opening maybe.
2 cities in T62 seems to be too slow in expansion.

I played a video of 5 cities with pyramid in T78, followed with 6th cities in T81. I will upload this video in qq.
If T78 pyramid is fast enough, I think this would be much faster opening.

T78 should be fine. As long as no AI has stone in the capitol, I think we can get Mids with over 95% chance at T78.

I'm fine with this start, though I personally prefer 99% odds.

BTW, T62 Mids can also guarantee 6 cities at T81 if needed. There are 18 food surplus/turn, so we'll have 250 food in the next 16 turns. 50 food for the granary at corn city and 200 food for 3 settlers.

 

[nanoprince]

4 openings are provided up to now! Thanks to the first trial of SOS and other guys' advice.
Here let's discuss. And then vote it if necessary.

Opening Option 1 (OO1 in brief)
City Order: B(Capital) → C → A
Tech Order: Mining → Bronze → Mystery → Masonry → Wheel → Potery → Hunting
Feature: fastest in development, slowest in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T86.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 85%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆☆☆
For T86，
7 cities and 4 workers. 3 cities with granary and 20grid-improvements, including a well-developed 3-fish city.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆☆
For T86，
9 trees will be cut.
_______________________________________________


Opening Option 2 (OO2 in brief)
City Order: B(Capital) → A → C
Tech Order: Mining → Bronze → Mystery → Masonry → Wheel → Hunting → Potery
Feature: faster in development, moderate in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T78.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 95%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆☆
For T78，
5 cities and 3 workers. 3 cities with 20grid and improvements. 2 cities with granary.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

11 trees will be cut.


_______________________________________________


Opening Option 3 (OO3 in brief)
City Order: A(Capital) → B → D and C
Tech Order: Hunting → Mining → Bronze → Masonry → Wheel → Potery
Feature: moderate in development, faster in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T72.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 98%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆
For T72，
5 cities and 3 workers. 2 cities with granary and basic improvements.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

10 trees will be cut.


_______________________________________________


Opening Option 4 (OO4 in brief)
City Order: A(Capital) → B
Tech Order: Hunting → Masonry → Mining → Bronze → Wheel → Potery
Feature: slow in development, fastest in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T62.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: > 99%.

b) Cites development ☆☆
For T62，
2 cities wih pops of 6 and 2.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

10 trees will be cut.

T78 should be fine. As long as no AI has stone in the capitol, I think we can get Mids with over 95% chance at T78.

I'm fine with this start, though I personally prefer 99% odds.

BTW, T62 Mids can also guarantee 6 cities at T81 if needed. There are 18 food surplus/turn, so we'll have 250 food in the next 16 turns. 50 food for the granary at corn city and 200 food for 3 settlers.

 

[nanoprince]

here is the city locations

A: initial point
B: for 2 corns
C: for 3 fishes
D: for the cattle

4 openings are provided up to now! Thanks to the first trial of SOS and other guys' advice.
Here let's discuss. And then vote it if necessary.

Opening Option 1 (OO1 in brief)
City Order: B(Capital) → C → A
Tech Order: Mining → Bronze → Mystery → Masonry → Wheel → Potery → Hunting
Feature: fastest in development, slowest in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T86.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 85%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆☆☆
For T86，
7 cities and 4 workers. 3 cities with granary and 20grid-improvements, including a well-developed 3-fish city.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆☆
For T86，
9 trees will be cut.
_______________________________________________


Opening Option 2 (OO2 in brief)
City Order: B(Capital) → A → C
Tech Order: Mining → Bronze → Mystery → Masonry → Wheel → Hunting → Potery
Feature: faster in development, moderate in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T78.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 95%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆☆
For T78，
5 cities and 3 workers. 3 cities with 20grid and improvements. 2 cities with granary.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

11 trees will be cut.


_______________________________________________


Opening Option 3 (OO3 in brief)
City Order: A(Capital) → B → D and C
Tech Order: Hunting → Mining → Bronze → Masonry → Wheel → Potery
Feature: moderate in development, faster in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T72.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 98%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆
For T72，
5 cities and 3 workers. 2 cities with granary and basic improvements.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

10 trees will be cut.


_______________________________________________


Opening Option 4 (OO4 in brief)
City Order: A(Capital) → B
Tech Order: Hunting → Masonry → Mining → Bronze → Wheel → Potery
Feature: slow in development, fastest in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T62.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: > 99%.

b) Cites development ☆☆
For T62，
2 cities wih pops of 6 and 2.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

10 trees will be cut.

4 openings are provided up to now! Thanks to the first trial of SOS and other guys' advice.
Here let's discuss. And then vote it if necessary.

Opening Option 1 (OO1 in brief)
City Order: B(Capital) → C → A
Tech Order: Mining → Bronze → Mystery → Masonry → Wheel → Potery → Hunting
Feature: fastest in development, slowest in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T86.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 85%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆☆☆
For T86，
7 cities and 4 workers. 3 cities with granary and 20grid-improvements, including a well-developed 3-fish city.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆☆
For T86，
9 trees will be cut.
_______________________________________________


Opening Option 2 (OO2 in brief)
City Order: B(Capital) → A → C
Tech Order: Mining → Bronze → Mystery → Masonry → Wheel → Hunting → Potery
Feature: faster in development, moderate in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T78.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 95%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆☆
For T78，
5 cities and 3 workers. 3 cities with 20grid and improvements. 2 cities with granary.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

11 trees will be cut.


_______________________________________________


Opening Option 3 (OO3 in brief)
City Order: A(Capital) → B → D and C
Tech Order: Hunting → Mining → Bronze → Masonry → Wheel → Potery
Feature: moderate in development, faster in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T72.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: 98%.

b) Cites development ☆☆☆
For T72，
5 cities and 3 workers. 2 cities with granary and basic improvements.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

10 trees will be cut.


_______________________________________________


Opening Option 4 (OO4 in brief)
City Order: A(Capital) → B
Tech Order: Hunting → Masonry → Mining → Bronze → Wheel → Potery
Feature: slow in development, fastest in Pyramid

a) Pyramid speed ☆☆☆☆☆
Pyramid will be built up in: T62.
Odds of finishing Pyramid: > 99%.

b) Cites development ☆☆
For T62，
2 cities wih pops of 6 and 2.

c）Trees protection ☆☆☆

10 trees will be cut.

 

[nanoprince]

I totally agree with SOS that Pyramid is critically important！
So I would prefer OO3 now， with pyramid finished in about T72. We may have a success odds of maybe 98%

 

[nanoprince]

here is the video of plan 2
http://www.bilibili.com/video/av8447609/

some notice
1) general discuss at 1:00, capital position
2) discuss about land-link and sea-link at 4:00
3) about tech roadmap at 8:00

 

[sossos]

@nanoprince

Good summary and great video. I think video is efficient and will start to use it later.

I also vote for OO3.

 

[obeliskgolem]

Hello Team,

I'd also prefer the OO3 option since it provides more hammers which might be used to handle some unexpected issues at early stage.

We might have the chance of Religious Victory as well. The Great Engineer via Pyramids can haste Apostolic Palace. As we all know, Religious Vic is always the fastest way to win, though we still need to get Medicine before that.
Another advantage of Religious Victory is that we can keep the diplomatic relation with other AIs at "Pleased". "Pleased" means we can ask AIs to change their civic (simultaneously) in most of the time. For those AIs which requires "Friendly" relation, we can use military force or spy.

(8 "Friendly" required AI: Alexander, Frederick, Louis XIV, Mao, Ramesses II, Stalin, Tokugawa, Victoria)

I agree with Nano that we should set the goal for a Domination Victory first while we can also keep an eye on RelVic.

 

[flager]

OO3 +1

 

[nanoprince]

I' met some trouble with buffy mod installing.
We are looking forward to fixing it tomorrow, with the help of team guys.
And then let's begin！！

 

[nanoprince]

I will live 0~15T online and discuss on qq. And also record the game by video.

According to team discussion, OO3 would be my first choice.

I' met some trouble with buffy mod installing.
We are looking forward to fixing it tomorrow, with the help of team guys.
And then let's begin！！

 

[nanoprince]

Here is the link of 0~15T living record.
The map was totally different from our first idea.
1 hour was taken for only 15T!
Much time was used for online audio discussion with teammates.
I gave some detailed notes on the savefile.

http://www.bilibili.com/video/av8493654/

 

[nanoprince]

BTW, the demo-map would be modified a little.
The start point is not GREEN HILL, but YELLOW HILL with 2 hammers.

Here is the link of 0~15T living record.
The map was totally different from our first idea.
1 hour was taken for only 15T!
Much time was used for online audio discussion with teammates.
I gave some detailed notes on the savefile.

http://www.bilibili.com/video/av8493654/

 

[sossos]

It's a pity I missed the miracle time. Wow, stone and Persia. Good job Nano!
I'll list the current thought for open discussion soon. My plan is as below:
Feb 8 List the topics for brainstorming
Feb 9 collect the inputs and make a plan
Feb 10 Play test game to collect more feedback
Feb 11 Vote and make final decision
Feb 12 Play for both real game and test game.

 

[sossos]

Initial thoughts

1. City development, the corn city is wonderful, so the initial plan is still 4->2 whip. We may have too many hammers, so I will have citizen work more on the water when growing.
2. Wonder:
The Pyramids. Maybe we need let Persia build it for us if he can settle the stone earlier
The Great Light House. We have 5 coastal city spots, at least 2 neighbors and some islands. We need writing/sailing ASAP, so this might be an option.
Stonehenge, just for failed gold
The Great Wall, for failed gold
Oracle, it's off track now. Mostly we need to research Alphabet->Currency as we have neighbors.
3. Military: Steal worker and war against Persia. This is not preferable for me because at Emperor level we need stronger AIs to tech for us and Darius is a very good tech partner.
For defence, I don't think we need too many warriors either at this difficuly level for barbarians.
4. Scout: Do we need work boat to scout Persia's direction? Personally I still don't like it too early. We may just need one when we take writing as the next tech
5. Worker: In the next 15 turns, 12 turns are for the 3 resources and let's see whether we can get Bronze in 13 turns. If yes, we can chop without wasting any turns.
6. Tech path: after Bronze Working, we may need to research too many techs. What if we go animal husbandry->writing-alphabet after bronze working? A bit late as we've researched mining.