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[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    :rotfl:


    Oh, I have a way: capture a city that already has them from another civ :mischief:
     
  2. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

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  3. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    I'm going to be on a team, so don't reveal anything to me.
     
  4. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Wow.

    If I've got the gist of this - infiltrate a Civ, preferable on an Island / another continent. Gift them 3 cities on your continent, see a colony formed and capture 2 of the 3 cities immediately (no garrison due to revolt??). Eventually kill the master, exile the former vassal offshore, gift 3 cities and watch them create another vassal. The vassal and vassal's vassal will have the same EPs as the master.

    Holy smoke.
     
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    and the same tech.

    No, it has 2 warriors (usually--you can control this). If we had used England, it would have had 2 redcoats :eek:

    You don't have to kill the master. We did that because Korea will talk much faster/easier than Toku. DeGaulle is better, but we could get him set up as fast.
     
  6. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Ah - that's what that discussion was about!

    Of course yes, I see.
     
  7. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Great work figuring this out Elitetroops. :goodjob:
    So there are TWO checks when an AI is considering capitulation, and if either are true then the AI will say "We are doing fine on our own"

    Yes, iPersonalityModifier is almost certainly iVassalPowerModifier.
    And iPowerMultiplier is most likely that 1.4 hardcoded into the game when trying to get capitulation.

    || is an something of an OR logical operator yes?
    If the statement to the left of || is true, or the statement to the right of || is true, then the consequences get activated (AI won't vassal!)?
    I'm not a coder, so I can only struggle imprecisely.

    We saw over and over again that if 1.4 times the AI soldier count was greater than World's Average Power, the AI wouldn't vassal.
    So the lefthand part of the || statement was easy to understand.

    The righthand part of the || statement 3 * iVassalPower > 2 * iMasterPower never seemed to be an issue when the human was the strongest civ in the game. :hmm:

    Hmm, so iMasterPower starts out as whatever number GET_TEAM(eTeam).getPower(false) brings?
    I'm guessing that is perhaps Soldier count of the human player without counting any of the Human's vassal's power?

    So we start with the Human's Soldier count.
    Then it gets adjusted for war success.
    Assuming the human has 40 war success and the AI has 0, then the human Soldier count gets multiplied by (2*40)/(0+40)=80/40=2
    Hah, that's great!

    If the AI got 4 war success, then it would be (2*40)/(4+40)=80/44=1.818
    Gah, the multiplier shrunk! :eek:

    Anyway, it gets a 2nd adjustment if the human is the Worst Enemy of the AI, which is pretty likely if the human is trying to capitulate the AI.
    human Soldier count gets multiplied by 3, then divided by 4.
    That is the same as multiplying by 3/4 or 0.75.

    So if the human gets 40 war success, the AI gets 0 war success, and the human is the Worst Enemy of the AI, all likely if 4 city gifts followed by war occurred,
    then the iMasterPower is simply 2*0.75 or 1.5 times Human's Soldier count.
    So a human with 1,000,000 Soldiers would have iMasterPower=1,500,000 ultimately.

    Now we are back to the final test, 3 * iVassalPower > 2 * iMasterPower
    That is the same as iVassalPower greater than 2/3rds iMasterPower
    If True, then then AI won't vassal.

    iVassalPower > 2/3 * iMasterPower
    1.4 * AI Soldiers (both master and any vassals it has) > 2/3*1.5* Human Soldiers
    1.4 * AI Soldiers > 1 * Human Soldiers

    Hah!, that's great

    1.4 * AI Soldiers is greater than World Average Power, won't vassal
    OR
    1.4 * AI Soldiers is greater than Human Soldiers, won't vassal

    Something seems fishy. :confused:
    Under ideal conditions of 40 flawless war success, we should be seeing the AI capitulate if the Human has a 1.4 Power Ratio (or higher) with the AI if the AI has iVassalPowerModifier=0.
    But we are seeing it at 1.5 power ratio, 1.2 power ratio, and 1.08 power ratio?
    Let me test some more.

    How is the AI capitulating at all if the human has a lower than 1.4 power ratio?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  8. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Spot on.
     
  9. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Thanks! :)

    My posts when I read them weeks later,
    I can't make heads or tails about what I was talking about without screenshots.
    And I always missed my important points rereading until I started bolding the important parts.
    Then it dawned on me that I better do those things for others too if they read anything like me.

    It is years of aping better posters' good habits that got me where I am today. :lol:


    Thanks for checking on this Elitetroops. :thumbsup:
    So Land Target only affects Peace Vassals after all.
     
  10. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    It seems to be moving pretty slow, so I'll try a crack at it the hard way and just paste over everything manually.

    Please Maximize your screen to properly display Spoilers inside Spoilers.
    Small screens will just cut words off, so don't even try to read this on a cell phone.
    If you still experience post cuttoffs, maximize->minimize->maximize screen on web browser with the top right button should get everything to show.


    **To see the tiny screenshots inside Spoilers of Spoilers, right click the screenshot and select View Image**

    Secret Homies Private Dialogue

    Can't sue me, I have permission!
    Spoiler :

    Page 1 of 20, December 19th 2017 to December 21st 2017:
    Spoiler :

    Oh lord, that is a lot of work.
    Especially the quotes within quotes.
    The ones from closed threads are even worse!:cry:

    Page 2 of 20, December 22nd 2017 to December 22nd 2017:
    Spoiler :

    Page 3 of 20, December 24th 2017 to December 30th 2017:
    Spoiler :

    Page 4 of 20, December 31st 2017 to January 22nd 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 5 of 20, January 22nd 2018 to February 3rd 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 6 of 20, February 3rd 2018 to February 19th 2017:
    Spoiler :


    It will take 5 more hours to do Pages 7 through 20. :cry:
    I'll add more when I get time this week.

    Page 7 of 20, February 19th 2018 to February 20th 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 8 of 20, February 20th 2018 to March 5th 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 9 of 20, March 5th 2018:
    Spoiler :
    Continued in Part 2 a few posts from now :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
    SittinDown, Fippy and Noble Zarkon like this.
  11. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Yes, something is fishy. Mabe it was too early to claim it was solved, because I also then noticed that I can't make the math match exactly. What I did confirm in my tests is that war success does make a difference, as does worse enemy. When I capped him with 1.2x his power, I was not worst enemy. When I did it with 1.09x his power, I had gathered probably close to 200 war success.

    I would suspect that, like when calculating RefuseToTalk duration, war success is actually war success+1. Otherwise, before any battles are fought, the formula would divide by zero and the universe would implode. :nono:

    When you add +1 war success to both parties, the formula behaves slightly differently. Now I would need 1.44x enemy power to capitulate as worst enemy with 40-0 war success. But that still not quite correct. For some reason the number comes out a bit too small... Or, actually when I tested these, I probably had some vassals of my own. Those might make a difference. Not at civ computer now, can't test.

    There's also

    int iVassalPower = (getPower(true) * (iPowerMultiplier + iPersonalityModifier / std::max(1, iMembers))) / 100;

    which seems to divide personality modifier with 1 or iMembers, whichever is larger (std::max = "pick larger of", I believe). If I recall correctly, iMembers had something to do with members on team, which would mean vassals. However, that would seem odd, that vassalpower is smaller the more vassals they have. I think I must have misunderstood something there.
     
  12. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Oh!
    Yes, dividing by 0 is very bad! :o

    I wonder if that is why the human player always gets a free +1:science: even with 0% slider.
    Maybe somewhere in the billion lines of code, there is a "divide by the human tech rate" somewhere? :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  13. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    There is, when tech slider tells you how many turns left. ;)
     
  14. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Secret Homies Private Dialogue Part 2!

    Please Maximize your screen to properly display Spoilers inside Spoilers.
    Small screens will just cut words off, so don't even try to read this on a cell phone.
    If you still experience post cuttoffs, maximize->minimize->maximize screen on web browser with the top right button should get everything to show.


    **To see the tiny screenshots inside Spoilers of Spoilers, right click the screenshot and select View Image**

    Page 10 of 20, March 5th, 2018 to March 7th, 2018: (Each page should have 20 posts)

    Spoiler :

    Page 11 of 20, March 7th, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 12 of 20, March 7th, 2018 to March 8th, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 13 of 20, March 8th, 2018
    Spoiler :

    Page 14 of 20, March 8th, 2018 to March 9th, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 15 of 20, March 9th, 2018 to March 26th, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 16 of 20, March 26th, 2018 to March 27th, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 17 of 20, March 28th, 2018 to April 4th, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 18 of 20, April 4th, 2018 to April 7th, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 19 of 20, April 7th, 2018 to May 1st, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Page 20 of 20, May 1st, 2018 to May 3rd, 2018:
    Spoiler :

    Done!
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    Noble Zarkon likes this.

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