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[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    correct. That's only peace vassals.
    Code:
        case TRADE_SURRENDER:
            return GET_TEAM(getTeam()).AI_surrenderTrade(GET_PLAYER(eWhoTo).getTeam(), 140);
            break;
    140 is hard coded as the default and modified by iVassalPowerModifier. So Church and Roos are 1.4 since iVassalPowerModifier=0.
    Mansa, for example is -20. So he's 1.2.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    SB is 50, so that 1.9x
     
  3. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    We dug into this issue a while back starting here
    Then again later here

    I believe WT discovered the 1.4 thing from reading code.

    Historically, it also popped up here in great detail.
    The key point is this line:
    Since none of the AI we were dealing with had vassals :whew:, all of them calculated their power when considering the World Average Power as Power = (Power_AI)*(140+iVassalPowerModifier)/100
    So if England had 160,000 Soldiers, they calculated their power as 160,000*(140+0)/100 = 224,000 Soldiers and would capitulate if this number was lower than World Average Power.
    If De Gaulle had 160,000 Soldiers, he calculated his power as 160,000*(140-20)/100 = 192,000 Soldiers
    If Sitting Bull had 160,000 Soldiers, he calculated his power as 160,000*(140+50)/100 = 304,000 Soldiers

    Since Average World Power is so hard for the human player to raise, this makes civs like Sitting Bull and Ghenghis Khan quite hard to capitulate in practice.
    Sitting Bull also takes the longest before willing to talk peace iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold=12. :mad:
    He should be 11/10 for Resists Capitulation.

    We also found out that if 1 AI was vastly more powerful than the human player, the 1.4 goes out the window. :confused:
    This whole business is littered with damn mysteries.
    Did anyone figure out Freedom Appreciation?
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2018
  4. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Thank you very much for clarifying those! :thumbsup:

    Btw. Did I come to the correct conclusion that the details about the mechanics and execution of your super secret EP liberation trick were not discussed in this thread? Tried to find the plan laid out, but couldn't.
     
  5. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    It was all hashed out, schemed, and plotted in a private discussion.
    We are currently trying to have it merged into this thread, but we might just have 1 long post quoting everything.
     
  6. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Freedom Appreciation is how many +diplo they have towards master when liberated as colony.

    Regarding the vastly more powerful AI, what I found in my tests was that you still always had to have at least 1.5x their power. You are pretty close in your test:
    But for some reason it seems you need slightly more than 1.5x their power.
    Thanks, this would be much appreciated! :) The great thing with SGOTMs is that the threads leave behind such a wealth of information and strategies to explore. Would be a shame if some of it was tucked away in a private conversation forever.
     
  7. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    I was referring to settling your two GPs. That's about as early as you can accelerate. ;)
     
  8. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I found a XenForo addon that might be able to export it for us. It's my fault for going private. If we decided not to use the tactic, I want to protect the secret a while longer.

     
    Noble Zarkon and elitetroops like this.
  9. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Espionage and AP are 2 added expansion features, and imo not as well balanced and thought out as the base game.
    Proof being delivered often in sgotm or HoF games, or even just regular ones.

    I always was happy with sgotm, much credit to for example Alanh for making this competition very professional.
    But this time will be as good as any other, for saying..certain aspects are really questionable for professional and competitive play.

    Imo, and really just imo, this stops us from getting more players and an overall bigger "tournament".
    There are so many peoples who are not interested in features that overthrow basic requirements of an excellent Civ4 game, maybe the best game ever created (certainly for us :)).

    Exploit? Wrong word imo, it's usually standing for negative actions and abusing games.
    I would word this differently..we are not excluding some parts of this game that should not appear in tourney play.
    I follow multiplayer threads for fun reading, and those guys simply exclude stuff like EP missions, they know it's ment for casual players just enjoying game features, but was never balanced enuf for competitive play.
    i would encourage everybody involved in sgotm to think about that.
     
  10. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Forget about that. Here I can cap Roosevelt with only 1.2x his power:
    Spoiler :


    Average power exactly 1.4x Roosevelt's power.

    That's weird, because in a previous test with wimpy De Gaulle I always needed 1.5x his power.

    This subject would probably deserve it's own thread in S&T to figure out the exact mechanics.

    Edit: Solved

    Next I managed to cap him with 1.09x his power. Here is the relevant part of the code:

    Code:
           int iMasterPower = GET_TEAM(eTeam).getPower(false);
           int iVassalPower = (getPower(true) * (iPowerMultiplier + iPersonalityModifier / std::max(1, iMembers))) / 100;
    
    .....
    
               iMasterPower = (2 * iMasterPower * iTheirSuccess) / (iTheirSuccess + iOurSuccess);
    
               if (AI_getWorstEnemy() == eTeam)
               {
                   iMasterPower *= 3;
                   iMasterPower /= 4;
               }
    
    .....
    
           if (iVassalPower > iAveragePower || 3 * iVassalPower > 2 * iMasterPower)
           {
               return DENIAL_POWER_US;
           }
    Apart from the average power check, there's also a check that MasterPower is high enough. Master powered is influenced by war success and it gets quite a big hit if you are worst enemy. So if you are weak in relation to the subject you try to capitulate, your best bet is to not be their worst enemy. War success also has an effect, but it is very minor.

    VassalPower is multiplied by iPowerMultiplier and iPersonalityModifier, whatever those are. I think the latter is related to iVassalPowerModifier.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I think by time of capping we had declared on most civs at least 1-2 times. Apart from Romans and Ottoman. Near end we were pretty much worst enemy with most AI.

    Congrats on the gold. Didn't upset the party this time but we stole the wooden spoon instead.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    iPowerMultiplier is the hardcoded 140.
    and yea, iPersonalityModifier is iVassalPowerModifier.
     
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  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Have to say Elite's knowledge of game functions has been amazing this game. Always seemed to be able to figure out problems using knowledge of the game. When your solving stuff that Home Slices didn't solve you are doing well. We do need someone who actually reads the forums more for new tricks and old tricks that are around. Least we keep your team honest on dates.
     
  14. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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  15. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

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  16. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I promise to double my participation in this next one!! If you'll have me, of course. ;)
     
  17. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    From the looks of it, we'll all have to quintuple our participation. Wonder what the screenshot will show.
     
  18. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Deal. I'll quintuple my participation then.

    This does sound like quite a challenge and it will go deep into the game. Sounds interesting too.
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Whew, that is a lot of tech in SG26. I guess it's been a while since we had to research much. Although... I may have a way to get some of those buildings without the required tech :mischief:
     
  20. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    shhh...we don't want to scare Fippy and elite off.

    Let me guess...ice sculptures?
     

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