[BTS] SGOTM 26 - The Indecisive

[Folket]

Hi, I did not get time today. I will play tomorrow morning. I'm fine with playing until BW.

Completing granary a turn early is good. WB in BB makes sense. I will reconsider in the game when I see what we have in the west.

In general I prefer cottages in Bibracte as we need to grow them as we have a lot of teching to do. I do not see anything we need to whip in Bibracte.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Hi, I did not get time today. I will play tomorrow morning. I'm fine with playing until BW.

Completing granary a turn early is good. WB in BB makes sense. I will reconsider in the game when I see what we have in the west.

In general I prefer cottages in Bibracte as we need to grow them as we have a lot of teching to do. Absolutely.I do not see anything we need to whip in Bibracte.

Was thinking library and/or worker, but cottaging is certainly reasonable, may well be preferable.

 

[Folket]

turn 59
met Russia in a work boat north of 6R
stonehedge was built

Spoiler Log :

Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Twin Clams (TC). Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 58, 1680 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 59, 1640 BC: Bibracte can no longer work on Stonehenge. The lost ℤ is converted into 114ℴ!
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Beaver Bay (BB) can no longer work on Stonehenge. The lost ℤ is converted into 75ℴ!
Turn 59, 1640 BC: The borders of Canal City (CC) have expanded!
Turn 59, 1640 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Canal City (CC). Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 60, 1600 BC: Canal City (CC) has grown to size 4.
Turn 60, 1600 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in 6R. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 61, 1560 BC: Your population: 24 (39.34%) exceeds the Domination Limit: 23 (39.00%)
Turn 61, 1560 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 62, 1520 BC: The borders of 6R are about to expand.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Will look at save and post comments before 7 AM your time.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Making good progress. Let’s discuss some before proceeding. What are your thoughts on the following:

Why Polytheism instead of Writing? Writing was the plan. Do you want to found Judaism as our state religion and perhaps run OR or build the Temple of Artemis?

When would be best to revolt to Slavery? We could whip the lighthouse in BB into a workboat for a new western city (leaning toward 6W of 6R, as city will not grow well if we try to utilize all 4 land-based resources), and there will be granaries and lighthouses to whip in other cities fairly soon.

The Sioux are no longer an imminent threat (blue now), so perhaps we should put all spy points on Russia. Note they are a larger empire than the Sioux and probably will have more tech to steal.

The chariot we’re building in Bib will cost us 1 gold in maintenance and does not seem needed. Why is this preferable to producing a worker and a library there?

No copper in our territory, and the copper that’s visible does not look worth acquiring. Wonder if the same will be true for iron. Looks like trading resources may become critical, so, therefore, is exploration and making contacts.

Just dawned on me that Domination would be impossible with the territory of only 7 cities, but Conquest is in play.

Map maker may have wanted us to choose between working with either stone or marble, but both would be possible with expansion. Have you looked at our wonders agenda in this light?

Have you tried to contact other team members. I have no previous relationship with any of them.

Do you want to keep playing or hand off? Either is just fine with me.

 

[Folket]

Sorry, weekends are unpredictable.

Making good progress. Let’s discuss some before proceeding. What are your thoughts on the following:

Why Polytheism instead of Writing? Writing was the plan. Do you want to found Judaism as our state religion and perhaps run OR or build the Temple of Artemis? We have not put any beakers into any tech yet. Polytheism is an interesting choice. It would delay any AI from getting Theology and give us the possibility of using a great prophet to bulb Theology. Also we can change to slavery and OR in the same turn.

When would be best to revolt to Slavery? We could whip the lighthouse in BB into a workboat for a new western city (leaning toward 6W of 6R, as city will not grow well if we try to utilize all 4 land-based resources), and there will be granaries and lighthouses to whip in other cities fairly soon. Either now or after we have polytheism.

The Sioux are no longer an imminent threat (blue now), so perhaps we should put all spy points on Russia. Note they are a larger empire than the Sioux and probably will have more tech to steal.
Makes sense. But then Russia is not a land neighbour so it is very unlikely that they would declare war.

The chariot we’re building in Bib will cost us 1 gold in maintenance and does not seem needed. Why is this preferable to producing a worker and a library there?
I do not see a great need for more workers but growing will allways be useful. We can leave the chariot half built in case something happen.

No copper in our territory, and the copper that’s visible does not look worth acquiring. Wonder if the same will be true for iron. Looks like trading resources may become critical, so, therefore, is exploration and making contacts.
I have found that buying strategic resources from the AI to be a pain.

Just dawned on me that Domination would be impossible with the territory of only 7 cities, but Conquest is in play.
Conquest with cavalry and galleon chain is an option. My intuition says it is more expensive than AP.

Map maker may have wanted us to choose between working with either stone or marble, but both would be possible with expansion. Have you looked at our wonders agenda in this light?
I found the settling spot to be so bad that I have not considered it.

Have you tried to contact other team members. I have no previous relationship with any of them.
Nope, I can PM them but they should be getting notifications either way.

Do you want to keep playing or hand off? Either is just fine with me.
I think I can do a few more turns. Let us just agree on a tech path first.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Why Polytheism instead of Writing? Writing was the plan. Do you want to found Judaism as our state religion and perhaps run OR or build the Temple of Artemis? We have not put any beakers into any tech yet. Well that’s puzzling. How do we get 156 beakers in one turn plus overflow when we are only producing 66? Polytheism is an interesting choice. [Please explain this. Are you reasoning that, once Monotheism is researched and Judaism is founded, the AI will temporarily abandon that research path toward Theology?] It would delay any AI from getting Theology [Wouldn’t there be a chance one of the AI could already be researching Mono and would either complete it before we do or not abandon a tech they had invested in?] and give us the possibility of using a great prophet to bulb Theology. Also we can change to slavery and OR in the same turn. Theology (and AP) I do understand the value of, and the double switch as well. Wondering if we are in a position to take advantage of OR. Wouldn’t Mono likely be founded in 6R, and we’d have to get the free missionary to the mainland (probably to Bib) to spread religion and utilize OR. If 6R is not the likely site of Judaism, then I’m much more positive about a Poly>Mono scenario, but my vague memory is that the last city founded is often the seat of a new religion. Do you know/think differently?

When would be best to revolt to Slavery? We could whip the lighthouse in BB into a workboat for a new western city (leaning toward 6W of 6R, as city will not grow well if we try to utilize all 4 land-based resources), and there will be granaries and lighthouses to whip in other cities fairly soon. Either now or after we have polytheism. Isn’t it Mono that we want to get to quickly? Mono will likely yield a state religion, plus allow a double switch of civics and missionary building. What is the immediate value of Poly?

The Sioux are no longer an imminent threat (blue now), so perhaps we should put all spy points on Russia. Note they are a larger empire than the Sioux and probably will have more tech to steal.
Makes sense. But then Russia is not a land neighbour so it is very unlikely that they would declare war. Yes, so it’s a matter of where we might steal techs. At least that’s my thinking. I’m a Vanilla player, so my experience with tech stealing is limited to SGOTMs, which have been out of mind lately. Certainly prefer your judgment on espionage matters.

The chariot we’re building in Bib will cost us 1 gold in maintenance and does not seem needed. Why is this preferable to producing a worker and a library there?
I do not see a great need for more workers but growing will allways be useful. No argument about the value of growth, but I would argue that a worker is like an investment. It just keeps producing value by improving infrastructure. However, given that a worker will cost us 1 gold per turn right now, it’s a close call. We can leave the chariot half built in case something happen. What else is there to build if we don’t tech Writing? The Temple of Artemis? Is that likely to be constructed any time soon by an AI? Maybe we leave a worker half built too?

No copper in our territory, and the copper that’s visible does not look worth acquiring. Wonder if the same will be true for iron. Looks like trading resources may become critical, so, therefore, is exploration and making contacts.
I have found that buying strategic resources from the AI to be a pain. Yes, but do you see a viable alternative?

Just dawned on me that Domination would be impossible with the territory of only 7 cities, but Conquest is in play.
Conquest with cavalry and galleon chain is an option. My intuition says it is more expensive than AP. Could well be. We should have a better idea when we know more of the map. When I look at the Power graphs of the two leading teams at Central, it sure looks to me that they went in that direction. If you haven’t looked at that, please do. Like to know if you think they could have achieved those graphs without Conquest. I’m not a builder, so have no feel for how the kind of massive infrastructure that this game requires will affect Power.

Map maker may have wanted us to choose between working with either stone or marble, but both would be possible with expansion. Have you looked at our wonders agenda in this light?
I found the settling spot to be so bad that I have not considered it. It is bad, though iron might show up there. Still, cutting construction costs in half on wonders would be significant and would allow 2-for-1 hammers-to-gold conversions. Do think it should at least be considered. Is there a desirable slate of the needed wonders most of them only requiring one of stone/marble? Have you experienced less pain trading for stone and marble?

Have you tried to contact other team members. I have no previous relationship with any of them.
Nope, I can PM them but they should be getting notifications either way. How about making the gesture, then we can proceed at will.

Do you want to keep playing or hand off? Either is just fine with me.
I think I can do a few more turns. Let us just agree on a tech path first. That works for me. I’d like to know your responses to the issues I’ve raised above before making an argument for the next tech.

 

[Folket]

You make a good point. We should be able to determine if Sitting Bull or Peter has Polytheism by counting number of extra beaker we are getting. If they do we should tech writing and trade for Polytheism.

Yes, monotheism is what we want. I must have been tired. Poly would give us a wonder to dump hammers into. Judaism does not come with a missionary. But with 3 food resources 6R could run a priest.

For stealing tech Sitting Bull may be the better option as Peter is willing to trade 20+ techs before fearing we are becoming to advanced. It will be cheaper to trade for his techs then stealing them.

As for worker. I can see a need for three cottages in twin clams but otherwise I do not see that much investment to be done.

Buying strategic resources are usually terribly expensive. I would not count on it happening.

Just building will not add much power. So they have most likely gone for conquest.

You do make a valid point. As we do not see any better spot to settle we could drop our settler on stone, crab whale. Which wonder will this city build?

I will PM them.

 

[Cactus Pete]

You make a good point. We should be able to determine if Sitting Bull or Peter has Polytheism by counting number of extra beaker we are getting. Can you educate me on how that can be determined? If they do we should tech writing and trade for Polytheism.

Yes, monotheism is what we want. I must have been tired. Poly would give us a wonder to dump hammers into. That would seem sub-optimal. Judaism does not come with a missionary. Sorry, my ignorance. But with 3 food resources 6R could run a priest. How would that work? Wouldn't we have to build a temple to run a priest, and wouldn't we need to tech Priesthood to build a temple. Also, we would need to research Masonry to tech Monotheism. All of which leads me to argue for Writing next, Slavery, building libraries, and obtaining Open Borders.

For stealing tech Sitting Bull may be the better option as Peter is willing to trade 20+ techs before fearing we are becoming to advanced. It will be cheaper to trade for his techs then stealing them. Understood. That's the plan, then.

As for worker. I can see a need for three cottages in twin clams but otherwise I do not see that much investment to be done. If we tech Iron Working after Writing, then we should start roading the gems, plus there are roads to build connecting our empire and forest to pre-chop.

Buying strategic resources are usually terribly expensive. I would not count on it happening. Understood. Like to know where the iron is.

Just building will not add much power. So they have most likely gone for conquest. Understood. So, you are arguing that AP victory would be less expensive than Conquest. Assume by less expensive you are also implying quicker. I don't have any feel for that. Do have evidence that Conquest is remarkably quick. Thinking capture gold and perhaps extorted tech might make up for the greater hammers needed to field an army. I an open to an AP victory if you have a reasonable expectation that it can be done quicker than Conquest (and, of course, meet game requirements). We might need a different approach to win.

You do make a valid point. As we do not see any better spot [ Well, there is that site north on BB.] to settle we could drop our settler on stone, crab whale. Not disagreeing, but why stone rather than marble? Which wonder will this city build? Let me get back to you on that. Don't think it's pressing at the moment.

I will PM them.

Hope we get some response.

The Mono route seems inefficient to me. Some of the needed tech could well be available via trade, and I question whether we can take much advantage of OR right now. I'd like to go Writing > IW. If that doesn't look good to you, explain why, and let's discuss more. If your on board with that tech route, then go ahead and play if you like..

 

[Folket]

No I was also thinking writing and picking free techs is the better option. But after writing I think we should get Judaism and a temple before iron working or mathematics.

We get 20% free beakers because we have a prerequisite tech and you can get up to 20% extra from other players having the tech. So if we determine we get 26% extra both Sitting Bull and Peter has Polytheism, if it is 23% it is only one of them and if it is 20% it is neither of them.

 

[Cactus Pete]

No I was also thinking writing and picking free techs is the better option. But after writing I think we should get Judaism and a temple before iron working or mathematics. Certainly concur with Writing next, but the rest of this seems contradictory. We can't get Judaism and a Temple without researching Poly, Masonry, Priesthood, and Mono. None of those will be free until we have Alpha and can trade techs.

Don't we want to wait for the AI to offer us Alpha in a trade and then gain those techs via trades?

We get 20% free beakers because we have a prerequisite tech and you can get up to 20% extra from other players having the tech. So if we determine we get 26% extra both Sitting Bull and Peter has Polytheism, if it is 23% it is only one of them and if it is 20% it is neither of them.

OK, think I follow that. If it's 26%, yielding 83.16 beakers, then we would barely make Poly in one turn if the previous tech was almost completed the previous turn. Not sure how we would get Mono in 2 turns, though, which is what the game says. Do you understand that?

Would prefer IW next over Math, as we are going to want to settle another city soon and would like to know where the iron is; plus, we can then take advantage of the gems in our capital that will be building a library. After IW, unless we want to start chopping to completion, let's consider setting research at zero until we build libraries and can then take maximum research advantage from our hoarded gold.

Would add gold from pillaging to the possible Conquest process.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We really do need to be making progress.

 

[Folket]

Yes, I just woke up and realized that. Could you take it here because I have had technical problem and all my focus has been on getting some results for a presentation on Friday?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, I just woke up and realized that. Could you take it here because I have had technical problem and all my focus has been on getting some results for a presentation on Friday?

Appreciate the pressure of a presentation. Break a leg.

I don't like playing without agreement on path forward, and I'm not at all sure that my planning is as good as yours, but we do need to get going or I fear we won't be able to finish in time. So, I will play according to my best thinking as far as I can, unless/until I run into some big issue. I will post what I've done on Friday so that you can review Saturday morning. Please give me some feedback then on your analysis of the situation and the best path forward and let me know what your status is. Right now, it looks like I will have Saturday free, so could get some more time in, especially if I get your feedback; but, if you will be able to get fully involved and take over play at that point, then we'll go that route.

 

[Folket]

I think we are in agreement on writing. Get writing and let us see what techs the AI has to trade. Try around and see what trades are possible then we can discuss where to go next.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think we are in agreement on writing. Get writing and let us see what techs the AI has to trade. Try around and see what trades are possible then we can discuss where to go next.

Think we need Alpha to trade (see post 351), but I'll double check. If can't trade, plan to go IW and then set research at 0%.

 

[Folket]

oh, it was long since I played this game. In that case I would prefer getting monotheism and priesthood first. I think it the best shot at winning faster. Our limiting factor here is our ability to get a great prophet.

 

[Cactus Pete]

oh, it was long since I played this game. In that case I would prefer getting monotheism and priesthood first. I think it the best shot at winning faster. Our limiting factor here is our ability to get a great prophet.

Well, I don't know enough about BtS to feel very comfortable arguing against that; nonetheless, I just don't see using our gold to research Masonry, Poly, Mono, and Priesthood (and we can't achieve all of those without putting research at zero for a few turns), plus building a temple as the fastest route. It's not clear that you recognize this issue. You've left it with me, so I'm going to do what I'm comfortable with and hope you understand.

 

[Folket]

Well, I don't know enough about BtS to feel very comfortable arguing against that; nonetheless, I just don't see using our gold to research Masonry, Poly, Mono, and Priesthood (and we can't achieve all of those without putting research at zero for a few turns), plus building a temple as the fastest route. It's not clear that you recognize this issue. You've left it with me, so I'm going to do what I'm comfortable with and hope you understand.

ok

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played 10 turns to 1,000 BC

Got Writing in two turns and opened borders with both the Sioux and Russia, gifting resources to Russia. Sent both wkbts and a chariot exploring. Not finding much in Sioux territory, so wondering if it is useful to put all spy points there, as not clear they will be able to do much research. So far, map looks reasonably Conquestable.

Whipped lighthouse in BB into wkbt and sent it toward 6R for use in establishing 6Rwest. If we settle on island and gain access to whales, then now thinking we want that city 5 (not 6) tiles west of 6R.

Completed chariot in Bib and built library. Sent chariot to 6R to serve as MP and possibly to later board a galley and help explore western overseas land mass.

Great Wall built in a far away land in 1240 BC.

Whipped a granary into lighthouse in TC and have since completed the lighthouse and begun a library there. Whipped a granary into lighthouse in 6R last turn and just whipped a granary into a lighthouse in CC this turn. Waiting to whip granaries when food box is half full and waiting to whip other buildings for a turn or two until the population is ready to expand has worked out well.

Researched IW, but only found iron in the inhospitable arctic. (Evil mapmaker at work) BTW, without metal, Sioux look to be an easy target.

Researched Masonry in order to have something to build after completion of library in Bib, then put research at 0%.

One of our western cities was asked to join the German empire, so presume Germany lies fairly close at hand. Hope we can make some more AI contacts soon.

Did not build cottage on Bib tundra tile, as thought it more pressing to prepare roads to future gem mines and then to mine the gems. Did make a one-turn chop on the roaded forest 1S of Bib. (Have roaded several forest tiles to connect territory and prepare for eventual chopping, but that is the only actual chop I made.)

Once gem mines are completed, suggest one of workers moves to road the rice (needed with granaries for food security) and then the forest toward TC.

Looks like time to decide where to put our other two cities and prepare a tentative plan for which city will satisfy which face of our god. Thinking General would be the easiest to build and might be viable on the marble/stone island. Isn’t Corporate headquarters built by a GP so it wouldn’t require hammers from the city? We’d need a missionary to put in a galley with a settler, unless we can settle that island city right before a religion is researched (I think).


BTW, in the game scenario write up, Ironworks is listed as a required building for the Engineer city, but Ironworks does not exist in my game. It is not in the Civelopedia and nowhere to be found on the tech tree. (Check out the save, which is registered at Central.) It would be hard enough to build (I would think) without access to iron but impossible if the building is fictional. What is the explanation for this? Is it like one of your neutrinos – real but not directly observable? Was this discussed before I came aboard?

It will be about 12 hours before I can get back to the game. Look forward to getting your input then. In particular,let me know if you want to play now.