[BTS] SGOTM 26 - The Indecisive

[Cactus Pete]

I suggest you do not read through the thread. Look at the game and the last page to see what is happening now.

Yes, there would certainly be a law of rapidly diminishing returns to go back very far.

 

[Cactus Pete]

PPP:
Spread Judaism to large Russian cities.
Tech astronomy -> gunpowder -> trade for engineering -> chemistry -> 1 turn until completion of liberalism -> scientific method -> liberalism -> biology. Concur.

Bibracte,
build fail gold, make farms. We have a barracks here. Once we have Gunpowder for muskets and Engineering for trebs, especially if the Sioux still do not have Feudalism and lbs, might be time to start building an army.

Beaver Bay:
Work max food,

Twin Clams:
Avoid working ocean tiles. Was doing so to get growth. What about farms here?

6R: Fine with this.
4 pop whip forge into MoM
then 2 pop whip courthouse into MoM

CC:
Library then harbour and last a jewish monastary. Going to battle with the Sioux, a barracks here would be useful, and a galleon makes sense here.

5W
2 pop whip forge then a library and last a harbour.

Island Town:
4 pop whip a forge. Put one turn into a galley. Whip Galley once we have astronomy. This doesn't seem optimal. We only have the HE to build here, and we don't need a forge for that. There are several required building already partially built that we can whip into the needed galleon. (If you want a useful unit, not sure a cat wouldn't be more helpful than a galley.)

Play until we have a galleon that can meet our southern naeighbours.

Good with that.

Don't let us miss out on circumnavigation.

 

[Folket]

A forge will give us 7-8 extra hammers per pop we whip. More after Kremlin. 16 hammers cheaper drydock and 27 hammer cheaper heroic epic. I was think we would just work water tiles while whipping in island city. 16 hammer per musket. So if we whip 5 muskets it is a net gain.

I think a forge would be fine but the gain is very small and loosing 4 pop seems like to much of a waste. I will not whip a forge in IT.

Playing now.

 

[Folket]

turn 146
1500 gold from GM.

turn 148
Sitting Bull started to research Feudalism.
Finished Astronomy and started Gunpowder.
Spread Judaism to Rostov.

turn 149
Germany asked for Music. I see no good reason to give it away and declined.
Germany is now willing to trade us HBR.

turn 150
Seems like Germany is building a wonder in Berlin.

turn 150 again?
Got a vote about AP resident.
Met Charlemagne. He is technologically backwards. I give him 8 gold and sign open borders.

Spoiler Log :

Turn 143, 660 AD: You have constructed a Jewish Temple in Twin Clams (TC). Work has now begun on a Harbor.

Turn 144, 680 AD: You have constructed a Forge in 6R. Work has now begun on Mausoleum of Maussollos.
Turn 144, 680 AD: You have constructed a Forge in 6R West (5W). Work has now begun on a Christian Temple.

Turn 146, 720 AD: You have constructed a Library in 6R West (5W). Work has now begun on a Christian Temple.
Turn 146, 720 AD: William the Conqueror (Great General) has been born in Vienna (Charlemagne)!

Turn 147, 740 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 147, 740 AD: Horatio Nelson (Great General) has been born in Mecca (Saladin)!

Turn 148, 760 AD: 6R has grown to size 11.
Turn 148, 760 AD: Canal City (CC) has grown to size 14.
Turn 148, 760 AD: Canal City (CC) can hurry Galleon for 2⇴ with 28ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.
Turn 148, 760 AD: 6R West (5W) has grown to size 10.
Turn 148, 760 AD: 6R West (5W) can hurry Harbor for 2⇴ with 30ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 32 turns.
Turn 148, 760 AD: The borders of 6R West (5W) are about to expand.
Turn 148, 760 AD: Judaism has spread in Rostov.
Turn 148, 760 AD: Clearing a Forest will create 30 ℤ for Beaver Bay (BB).
Turn 148, 760 AD: Beaver Bay (BB) will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 148, 760 AD: Island Town IT will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 148, 760 AD: You have constructed a Harbor in Twin Clams (TC). Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 148, 760 AD: You have constructed a Courthouse in 6R. Work has now begun on Mausoleum of Maussollos.
Turn 148, 760 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Canal City (CC). Work has now begun on a Harbor.
Turn 148, 760 AD: The borders of 6R West (5W) have expanded!
Turn 148, 760 AD: You have constructed a Harbor in 6R West (5W). Work has now begun on a Christian Temple.
Turn 148, 760 AD: You have trained a Galleon in Island Town IT. Work has now begun on a Dun.

Turn 149, 780 AD: Bibracte can hurry Observatory for 2⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 149, 780 AD: Beaver Bay (BB) has grown to size 9.
Turn 149, 780 AD: Twin Clams (TC) can hurry Market for 3⇴ with 30ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 29 turns.
Turn 149, 780 AD: Bismarck will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 149, 780 AD: Peter will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 149, 780 AD: 6R will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 149, 780 AD: Canal City (CC) will grow to size 13 on the next turn.
Turn 149, 780 AD: 6R West (5W) will grow to size 9 on the next turn.

Turn 150, 800 AD: 6R has grown to size 10.
Turn 150, 800 AD: Canal City (CC) has grown to size 13.
Turn 150, 800 AD: 6R West (5W) has grown to size 9.
Turn 150, 800 AD: Island Town IT can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 22ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.
Turn 150, 800 AD: Sitting Bull has 50 gold available for trade.

 

[Folket]

Given that Sitting Bull soon with have longbows I suggest we delay any war plans since we have a long window to fight him with trebs and muskets now that we missed muskets vs archer window. Let us focus on getting to Biology and research.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Given that Sitting Bull soon with have longbows I suggest we delay any war plans since we have a long window to fight him with trebs and muskets now that we missed muskets vs archer window. Let us focus on getting to Biology and research.

Concur.

I will look at save and post a plan in a few hours.

Please explain the value of Christian temples.

What is your guess as to what wonder is being built in Berlin, and how do you know one is in construction?

 

[Folket]

I just see in the espionage screen that Berlin has many hammers into something. Looks like 150 hammers. I posted the formula on some page here. I have a conference this week and need to present on Friday so I'm pretty tired.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I just see in the espionage screen that Berlin has many hammers into something. Looks like 150 hammers. I posted the formula on some page here. I have a conference this week and need to present on Friday so I'm pretty tired.

Understood. Hopefully we'll get some help soon.

Note that Rome has marble. Are they building a wonder?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Plan for T150 and going forward:

Hold galleon to pick up CC missionary and sail toward France and Arabia.

Trade/gift with Germany to get HBR, 50 gold, and map

Bring IT galleon back to pick up a Christian missionary

Bib – Chop observatory this turn and switch back to Itza

BB – build Itza and then back to observatory (cheaper than a university); road tundra hill and then chop the plains forest with fresh water and then farm it.

TC – Wondering if U of Sank will be built by AI or, even if so, in a timely manner, so building a Christian missionary (If monasteries are going to obsolete with SM, then don’t we need to build more Christian missionaries soon?)

6R – Whip Dun into MoM [Any reason not to chop forests into MoM?]

CC – Complete missionary, then pre-build dun and whip into observatory

IT – Build library, then whip it for 2 pop into Itza for one turn, then complete pre-build of dun



Tech path:
Calendar -> Priting Press -> Astronomy -> Gunpowder -> Engineering -> Chemistry -> Scientific Method -> Biology (with liberalism)

Plan to tech Liberalism for a turn after Gunpowder to see what Peter chooses to research next. If it is not Guilds or Nationalism, then will try to trade him that choice for Engineering (and 50 gold). If have to wait another turn for Peter's next choice, then will continue to build Lib.Chemistry next.

Anything I need to be wary of regarding AP voting or diplomacy?

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

When do you plan to play? I can have a look at the game in about 10 hours. I can take the next round for sure if you need it. I have some free time till friday.

 

[Folket]

I suggest you do not delay trading with Peter. He could decide to start the notre dame and refuse to trade the tech with us. I suggest we trade him Astronomy.

We can manipulate the timing of AP votes by not having anything to vote on. So try to spread to cities that does not want to get liberated. Perhaps Aachen and Tours. Avoid spreading to one of the AIs to avoid the victory vote to be available. I suggest we delay spreading to France or Germany. That means sending the Taoist missionary to Cologne or tours to prevent Christianity from spreading there by chance.

I guess you mean to tech trade with HRE for 50 gold and HBR?

Bismark har 208 hammers into something in Berlin.

I now see that Cahokia has a castle. How annoying. Moscow, Berlin and Aachen also has one.

You can't build Itza in Bib, we loose the game if it finishes. Build ankor wat instead. I can't believe I forgot to chop observatory. So obvious now.

Reason to delay choping MoM is if Germany is building it. Being ahead and 25-30 hammers a turn it does not feel safe. If Germany finishes an other wonder I think we are safe. Otherwise we should chop forests into MoM 3 turns before reaching 300 hammers and we can whip 5 pop to finish it. Hopefully he is building statue of Zeus.

Look for opportunity to sell resources for gold. Germany wants clams and silver. HRE wants silver and fur.

 

[Folket]

You have green light to play from me, but wait for RRRaskolnikov to give feedback.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I suggest you do not delay trading with Peter. He could decide to start the notre dame and refuse to trade the tech with us. I suggest we trade him Astronomy. Makes sense. Will do.

We can manipulate the timing of AP votes by not having anything to vote on. So try to spread to cities that does not want to get liberated. How does one determine whether or not a city "wants" to be liberated? Perhaps Aachen and Tours. Those are targets, then. Avoid spreading to one of the AIs to avoid the victory vote to be available. Follow that. I suggest we delay spreading to France or Germany. That means sending the Taoist missionary to Cologne or tours to prevent Christianity from spreading there by chance. Taoism to Cologne, then.

I guess you mean to tech trade with HRE for 50 gold and HBR? That is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

Bismark har 208 hammers into something in Berlin.

I now see that Cahokia has a castle. How annoying. Moscow, Berlin and Aachen also has one.

You can't build Itza in Bib, we loose the game if it finishes. I knew that, but glad you corrected it. Build ankor wat instead. Yes. I can't believe I forgot to chop observatory. So obvious now. Everyone needs an editor.

Reason to delay choping MoM is if Germany is building it. Being ahead and 25-30 hammers a turn it does not feel safe. If Germany finishes an other wonder I think we are safe. Otherwise we should chop forests into MoM 3 turns before reaching 300 hammers and we can whip 5 pop to finish it. Hopefully he is building statue of Zeus. Follow that. Will hold off on chopping.

Look for opportunity to sell resources for gold. Germany wants clams and silver. HRE wants silver and fur.

Will do.

 

[Cactus Pete]

When do you plan to play? I've put in planning time, so I want to play in the next 24 hours. Please give me your feedback on the plan as outlined above and adjusted for Folket's comments as soon as you can. I can have a look at the game in about 10 hours. I can take the next round for sure if you need it. I have some free time till friday.

My schedule is pretty full until Saturday, and Folket has even more pressing RL demands, so it would work out well if you can post a plan and play after me. I will post a report in the thread and a save at Central in about 25 hours.

 

[Folket]

If you look in espionage. If cost for sabotage production is higher then city revolt they have 110 hammers into something. You can then use Hammers = (Sabotage Production / City Revolt) * (650/6) to determine exact number of hammers. I did not see any other wonder building. But they could have started a wonder, but we can tell if it is wonder, building or unit unless there are many hammers.

I do not knew when things can be liberated. But in general I think culture is very important. So when you spread to Arabia use your judgement to determine which city they are going to loose last in a war. It seems like Arabia is loosing a war against the HRE right now. Given that the capital probably has a castle it might be a good spot.

I think you can go ahead and play. RRRaskolnikov will probably have more feedback once he/she has played a set and formulated a strategy.

 

[Folket]

Just for reference. Our objective at the moment is

Prophet- CC: Dun, Temple, Monastery, Cathedral, Moai Statues, Great Wonder generating Great Prophet points (AP)

Merchant – BB Dun, Temple, Market, Bank, Wall Street, Great Wonder generating Great Merchant points (Eiffel tower)

Artist – 6R: Dun, Temple, Theatre, Broadcast Tower, Globe Theatre, Great Wonder generating Great Artist points (MoM)

Scientist – Bib: Dun, Temple, Library, Lab, Oxford University, Great Wonder generating Great Scientist points (GLib)

General- island or Cahokia: Dun, Temple, Barracks, Drydock, Heroic Epic, Corporation HQ

Engineer – TC: Dun, Temple, Forge, Industrial Park, Ironworks, Great Wonder generating Great Engineer points (Mids)

Spy – 6W: Dun, Temple, Courthouse, Intelligence Agency, West Point, Great Wonder generating Great Spy points (Kremlin)

Maybe RRRaskolnikov can put this in post 2 so it is easy to find?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Maybe RRRaskolnikov can put this in post 2 so it is easy to find?

I put it in post 2 for you.

 

[Folket]

I put it in post 2 for you.

Thanks

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Tx Folket for this post, I nearly asked for something like that but thought I would figure it out when logging in.
I am a he

 

[Folket]

So things we need to achieve.
1 Christian city for each nation.
Have one non Christian ai love us with enough votes. (By spreading Judaism and christianity.)
Time AP victory at a good turn. (By not having any votes available before we are ready to win)
Research a lot of tech. (We are avoiding war and focusing on economy)
Get one GG for a level 6 unit. (One short war with sitting bull)
Avoid mass media. (We build Eiffel Tower for broadcasting towers.)