[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

kcd_swede · Sep 12, 2020

BTW- if we fall back on a UN VC, the key is to keep in mind who we want as our opponent, and who (at least 1) will cast votes for us. So we have to try to get the biggest civ to be hated, and the smaller civs to love us. And we should be thinking about getting everyone in Free Religion, with spies if necessary. Saladin will want to keep his religion, and thus might make a good UN opponent.

Note added: mapmaker has seemingly conciously chosen civs with varying and compatible favorite civics to make UN path very viable. We'd be in HR, Bur or Nationhood, and Environmentalism, and force everyone to be in Free Religion to prevent favor to Saladin in Theocracy.

SittinDown · Sep 12, 2020

Good thoughts KCD.

....I tend to like continuing the Conquest victory path anyway for meta-gaming reasons. Pretty sure Pheonix finished, and I'd guess it was a diplomatic victory. There's no way we beat them at that game. I don't think anyone else is going conquest - though Indecisive is hard to tell. Even if we come in slowest, at least we'll have a unique victory.

German stack looks pretty tough - lot of maces. If we pillage the roads to Isca, and then concentrate our forces by Isca on the hills, we should be able to attack them on open ground, and with all the cats we have, we should be okay. A couple of archers could upgrade to x-bows.
I like trading Compass around. I'm surprised nobody has prioritized it yet really.
I agree that we should start building units again.
I like the Cam as prophet city. It will be much stronger with the extra hammers.
- Not sure I'm seeing how best to make a great prophet, with NE and GLB in Scientist.

Do you want to play a few turns? If so, please do. My time / energy for Civ4 will be less until Tuesday. (I can do a couple of turns a day, but not a big 10-turn set).

kcd_swede · Sep 13, 2020

We are going to have temple(s) in every city, so Cam with Maoi and hired prohpets will make some Prophet GPP, and if we minimize GPP in NE city for a little while it will eventually get overtaken. Or maybe with hired priests in NE city we get lucky earlier.

We'll go conquest and see what happens. Should be able to avoid the Wooden Spoons at least.

I can play some if you need the break. I think switching back and forth the active players loses a lot of time, and there are only 17 days left, and you are doing such a great job... so if you come to a period where you'll have to be away for some days I'll step up, but I think we are more efficient if you keep going. If you post a "Take Over" command here, and hopefully some guidance on the tactical situation, then I'll keep things rolling. I'm watching this thread almost every morning and evening, even if it sometimes takes me longer to respond.

Agree upgrade to x-bows. Its a conundrum because we can't whip as we would like due to lack of food, but we can't run 0% science a lot because the game's tech requirements are so big. Kudo's to mapmaker for a real challenge. :egypt:

SittinDown · Sep 13, 2020

Ok - sounds good - I play, you advise seems to be working well. I like pushing forward a few turns each day. Once we get the main rivals under control, we can do a longer run. I will play a few turns tonight. Will play longer turn sets on Tues / Wed / Thurs this week. I have 8 more days I can put a lot of time into this before the deadline.

Conquest is still plan A.
Cam will do Maoi, and run priests. Cathedral allows +2 priests. So, getting one of those seems smart.
Scientist will finish Oxford.
All other cities will make units, or finish Dun's, and then make units. (Mace / Musket).
Will save some money to upgrade the archers in Isca when there's a DOW. Our catapults should be able to wreck their stack, and our HA's should do fine against maces in the open field.

SittinDown · Sep 14, 2020

Update:

Gunpowder is in.
Liberalism has 2 turns in it.
Engineering has ~3 turns to go.
Nobody has Paper or Philosophy yet, so Liberalism is very safe.
I pillaged everything left from HRE I could for probably about 50 gold, and slowed down Bismark's development there. But he won most of the spoils of that war. :\

Bismark isn't plotting anymore. His army is parked in Berlin.
Everyone is pleased with us.
Peter met Saladin, they don't like each other.
Moscow is lighty defended.

I think it's time to attack Peter. We have catapults, maces, some muskets, and such. A quick heavy strike to Moscow should cripple Peter.
I think we should consider adopting Taosim, so for the building bonuses.
I think getting a Priest will still be hard. But getting an Engineer and rushing a prophet wonder might not be too impossible.

Spoiler log :

SittinDown · Sep 14, 2020

(most likely will not play at all tomorrow)

So take an extra good look going into the Tuesday - Thursday longer-plays. I really think going after Peter is best. 4 galleons of units for Moscow, and 1 Galleon to disconnect iron.

SittinDown · Sep 14, 2020

Was thinking a little more about the religion.

going into a religion that nobody else has is not good diplomatically.
Isca has Hinduism. We're unning OR, so we can build a missionary there now.
Converting to Hinduism gets us a big boost diplomatically. ....and the extra +25 should help us a lot for all the buildings we still need to build.

kcd_swede · Sep 14, 2020

OK, Peter next is good... but then esp on Peter without a spy there is useless. Better on Bismark, or Saladin.
Hindu is good. Spread it to the cities we need the bonus first, though. If we wait, the now pleased Saladin might eventually ask us to join, and accepting that request gets even more bonus diplo.

Bismark wants too much to start a war with Saladin or Loius, but you can explore other ways to keep him too occupied to bother us. He doesn't know Peter, so it won't affect diplo. So he shouldn't start plotting unless we lose a lot of units and power goes down.

With the hindu love-fest, I'm very glad the AP has been razed, btw. :smoke:

SittinDown · Sep 14, 2020

Our Spy just got caught a couple turns ago. I can send another one over.

kcd_swede · Sep 14, 2020

Probably not worth the bother to send a spy there... Peter should be dead before it could get the 50% bonus anyhow. :lol:

SittinDown · Sep 14, 2020

other nice thing about hinduism is it's another priest we can run if we build a temple.

SittinDown · Sep 15, 2020

UPDATE:

Engineering is in.
DOW on Peter.
- The counterattacks have been tough, and Peter's navy is a threat to our Galleons, just by numbers. Fortunately, our attack stack hasn't lost any units yet, and Peter threw a lot at it, and he's willing to sign a peace treaty or cease fire.
- Lost a loaded Galleon with our super-healer Great General Chariot and 2 HA's in a low-odds attack by Peter from a caravel. (I thought I scouted the area and didn't see any close threats).
- I think I declared a couple of turns too early, but the logistics were tough with the boats so far away. I should have parked more units in Saladin's territory.
I'm thinking we sign cease fire before he wipes out our offensive stack - they're holding so far, but the units are pretty beat up - though his counter-attack ability is severely compromised. I think we need to concentrate the army again, and maybe attack his other cities.
- His navy is blocking our path to reinforcing the attack on Moscow safely. I had pulled the galleons back to Scientist to pick up Wave 2.

Iron is disconnected. He has two horses, but no guilds, so just HA's and Cha's. Not much of a threat.
Moai statues are in.
Oxford is close.
We could really use those frigates now, but our army is so expensive that we can't even make money at 0%, so I think we should work wealth for a bit in a few cities, and maybe court-house in Scientist Isca, and Prophet (Cam).

Not the best result, but I stopped here short of a disaster. We can get the level 6 unit again pretty easily with a stable and a great general.

Spoiler Turn log :

kcd_swede · Sep 16, 2020

Alright. Some setbacks are to be expected. Lemme take a look and see if I have any ideas. I'll need another 8hrs and some :coffee:

SittinDown · Sep 16, 2020

Cool. Possibility (risky) remains that we can take Moscow this turn, which would probably wipe out our offensive stack. Let me know what you think. I didn't really consider it yesterday when I was playing, but I think there are 2 muskets, 1 mace, 3 HA's, and 9 catapults on the doorstep of Moscow.

kcd_swede · Sep 16, 2020

Hmmm... We could take 170g and 7gpt + map for peace, and come back with frigates in 10t. But I am concerned about the progress Russia is making, and figure its probably worth it to raze Moscow even if we eventually lose that whole stack. Maybe raze Moscow and then take peace for gold, to save whatever survives the suicide attack. If we get a promo on a unit there in the counterattack, I think a medic1 is worth a lot.

Funny... this is how my wars usually go, (which isn't a positive thing to say). See if there are something to sell, too, like Drama to SB.

Lets hope the Musket withstands the chariot charge, and then we'll know if taking it is possible.

SittinDown · Sep 16, 2020

I tend to agree - if we go for peace here, I think we give up on Conquest, and go for Hindu Diplomatic victory.
I'll spin up a test scenario and see how the suicide attack goes on Moscow before I play tonight. If we can raze Moscow, we should be okay. I think his army will be gone at that point, and we can start streaming in muskets (4 on the way + 1 treb), and pillage his lands while we build up siege again. I'll see if I can get a medic out that way. I think some of the muskets in wave 2 can get medic 1 now, but I used up the promotions on the Moscow stack already just to keep them holding.

If we throw a horse in with a musket stack, it can move-and-pillage, and we can wreck Peter's economy.

Our tech pace is so bad right now! I'm also wondering if OR + Moai + Divine Right => Spiral Minaret in Prophet, so that we can freely run scientists.
We have a GS in Scientist that we just popped. Right now that'd bulb Printing Press, which isn't beneficial.
Hinduism will be in Scientist and Prophet shortly. Engineer has it, as does Isca.

SittinDown · Sep 16, 2020

UPDATE:

Military

The defensive units around Moscow held, and Peter gave up the attack.
Our catapults whittled down his defenses two 0, while two boats of units swept in from the East and disconnected his horses, a silver, and a pillaged a windmill.
Peter tried a few counter-attacks, but our superior units stayed alive consistently.
Finally the attack was ready on Moscow, and 6 out of 9 catapults survived. The 2 muskets and mace, and 3 HA's all won their battles against the damaged Russian units.
The next turn, Moscow was no more, and Peter was severely weakened, his last horse pasture taken away, and now we have medic units in the main stack with reinforcements on the way.
13 battles won, 3 lost (all lower-exp suicide catapults).

Next steps:
- Consolidate the expeditionary force, and continue to pillage, especially happy / commerce tiles, while we get to the next city to start bombarding.
- Bring in the reinforcements. (5 muskets and 1 cat) + (2 trebs, and a musket)
- Build a few more siege units (we have 2 trebs and a cat on the way).

Diplomatic

I traded Philosophy to France before Saladin did, for some gold and Theology.
I switched us into Hinduism, which almost every city has now, though nobody went from Pleased to Friendly.
The Arabs are now the #2 score rival.
Bismark built the Haggia Sophia.
Peter built Notre Dame with a Great Engineer.
Bismark founded Islam.

Domestic

I was getting worried about our economy, so I paused making units and built up wealth so we'd be able to take advantage of Oxford.
I'm playing a gambit that the Prophet city can finish Angkor in time. (~17 turns left) It's a big gamble, since we gave Philosophy to France. I really think we need the Scientists with the Scientist city to get our tech rate up. (It'll be able to run 5 scientists at +24 bpt each after oxford...and that's before an observatory. We need beakers, and I don't want to waste that by trying to limp into a great prophet unless we really have to. There are 2 GP wonders left.)
In light of that, I think after we put another turn into liberalism we should go for Divine Right, and be prepared to build the Spiral Minaret. We have 2 forests we can chop for Angkor, and a worker on the way, and a mine we can build.
Post OR, I started a few courthouses, especially in Isca, to reduce maintenance. I think Scientist should do an Observatory next, then a Courthouse.

City dedication
- I'd like to figure out which city should be the Merchant city, and build a marketplace, since we're going to be running near 0% for a while.
- I'd like to figure out which city should be the General city, and build the Heroic epic.
- Artist and Spy can wait.
- General has to be Ver, Tol, or Isca. I like Ver, because it's just not that good of a city, and General has no wonder requirements. Isca has better natural hammers, and better tiles overall, so Artist or Spy is good there.
- Merchant, Spy, and Artist are open. I like Merchant for Vienne, since it has good commerce, and can benefit from the Wall Street we eventually need to build.

Spoiler Log :

SittinDown · Sep 17, 2020

..........another thought, check to see what France wants to bribe into war with Peter. Might slow down any wonder production. Bad luck that Peter made ND - that would have been a juicy target for France.

kcd_swede · Sep 17, 2020

The next turn, Moscow was no more, and Peter was severely weakened, his last horse pasture taken away, and now we have medic units in the main stack with reinforcements on the way.
13 battles won, 3 lost (all lower-exp suicide catapults).

I'll take a look. Your thoughts seem good to me. Bulbs are less value as we go up the tree, so settling the GSci to get more beakers overall, and directed into the techs we choose, is probably a good call. But lets check the bulb order, we might prefer to save her for Sci Meth or Physics or something. Bulb chemistry would be nice to get steel with Lib, but not sure what we'd need to do for that.

I'll be back. :borg:

Zhary · Sep 17, 2020

Great work you guys are doing.
May I suggest another approach:
Use the scientist for a Ga to speed up angkor. During the Ga we might even change to US to buy angkor.
I don't have time to do the calculations but libbing steel or chemistry seems to be so much better than waste lib on dr.

[BTS] SGOTM 26 - Unusual Suspects

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Jag är Viking!½

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