SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Paul#42]

- We're settling 1 E, on the BG, right? I'll move the worker first, if anything really exciting shows up, well, we'll see.
- What are we researching? Ceremonial Burial? (at max)

I'd suggest Pottery first. Although I would also suggest building a settler before granary if better land is around, I don't want to delay the granary till we find trade partners (or huts). But maybe we should gamble a bit - it won't break our neck to start w/o granary.

- Worker to cow, irrigate, road, move, well, that's 10 right there isn't it?
- Curragh first I think. That'd pretty much be 10 right there too...

I thought the first set was 20 turns and then 10 for ages? The rest is okay with me. Remember curraghs even row 3 tiles (seafaring). I'd like the curragh going north first to explore a possible wonder town site (after scouting india of course).

If there's a forest s of the cow maybe we should do some chopping to support the granary (or settler)?

I agree we're going to want some wonders. Where do we want to build them? I'm still thinking of founding on the BG, but we are giving up a more productive location on the plains 2NE. Just thought I'd bring it up once more before we commit.

Also on wonders, I agree on the GLb and the Colossus. Not sure about the Lighthouse this time. We're driven to max out science if we want to win, so we'll pass by Navigation relatively early. Might have enough to do until then. Even though the GL is useful, maybe we have a better use for 300 shields under the circumstances.

I didn't think about the lighthouse yet but I think depending on situation it could hurt us in the hands of another civ. With TGL in our hands we need just to block the coast tiles, the AI won't go on sea even for one single step. But we can decide that when we know the area around Indian Island better.

In that case we would need a wonder city on the coast. As well for the colossus. Maybe we could build a wonder city NE of the incense hills but only if there is a food bonus... With colossus, lighthouse and library we need to be aware of 20k

CKS's suggestion for turn order seems good assuming Jove doesn't mind starting us off. We can change this around if someone doesn't like the order.
Jove
Paul#42
pindicator
TimBentley
CKS
denyd
jeffelammar

Rather put me a little back in the order, maybe between CKS and denyd. So the two noobs are not back-to-back and we are in nice experienced sandwiches
I had lost relation to real time a bit when I suggested to play 2nd or 3rd...

 

[pindicator]

SGOTM standards are 20 turns for the first player and 10 turns after that. Pretty standard for most SGs too.

Agree on Curragh first. early contacts are vital. If this was a game of my own, I would probably go Curragh-curragh-warrior, but the great thing about these games is trying out other people's strats.

We could also order ourselves by time zone to minimize slowdowns in the turn order. Myself, I'm on the US West coast which makes me -8 or -9GMT depending on how daylight savings time screws with things.

 

[Paul#42]

I'm from Central Europe (GMT +1) but I don't think we need to optimize our line up that way because I'd like some discussion between the turnsets anyway - so I see no need to accelerate our playing.

But of course I won't resist if anybody wants to do the sorting

two curraghs would be okay for me, too - we are Vikings - but the second should be accelerated by chopping.

 

[jeffelammar]

I'm from Central Europe (GMT +1) but I don't think we need to optimize our line up that way because I'd like some discussion between the turnsets anyway - so I see no need to accelerate our playing.

I agree completely. We should never be in too big a hurry.

 

[CKS]

I also don't see any necessity for sorting by time zone. There is no reason to rush. I have no objection to sorting, though. The only reason I suggested alphabetical is that it helps me remember when I'm supposed to play.

I suggested the lighthouse not because I think we want it, but because I really think we don't want someone else to have it. As Paul#42 said, keeping the AI restricted to coastal waters would be nice.

I wouldn't mind 2 curraghs first - exploring in both directions quickly is a good thing.

I think we have good chances to trade for either pottery or ceremonial burial when we find somebody to trade with. I guess I lean toward researching pottery first, so we have a granary option sooner. I don't have a strong opinion either way, though. If we find nice land, though, we'll want to build a settler before a granary, and even if we don't find great food around us, it won't hurt much to build a settler first.

 

[denyd]

Thanks to Civ IV crashing my machine, I'll need to get bumped to the bottom of the stack.

As for thoughts on recent posts: Monarchy to Communisim might be the best option. No WW and allows support for lots of units. We'll probably be able to get Communism from either Carthage or Ottomans as the AI usually go Nationalism to Communism in the IA.

First build of a curragh sounds good. I'd like to reserve 2nd build for what the curragh finds. I have a sneaking suspician that India is in the middle of a large lake. It was earlier mentioned that it's fresh water so they are probably in the center of a fresh water lake. That would lessen the need for the Great Lighthouse and increase our need for land based troops & settler expansion.

I'll check back later today. I'm limited to 8-5PST Net access for the next couple of days.

 

[Jove]

Ok, I'm back from my day off.

Looks like everyone's cool with a curragh first, so I'll do that. Whether we do pottery or CB first, we have the chance to meet someone and trade for either. Doing pottery ourselves makes us independent of the AI and able to do a granary right away, so I'll do that.

Granary first vs. Settler first: I look at it this way. A granary essentially doubles a city's growth. Going from 1 to 2 cities doubles our growth too, as long as the second is food-equivalent to the first. So if there is a juicy spot nearby, I'll do a settler first, then a granary. This isn't a domination game, so super growth, dom limit, etc, doesn't matter unless it is furthering our ends... If there is a really nice food spot inland, that might be a nice place for our settler pump, as if we really want the Colossus, the capitol might be a good place for it. Need to acquire BW somehow too...

2 curraghs: I'm inclined for a curragh and a warrior if we're to have 2 units before the granary. But I'll have to decide when I see what's out there.

The water to the north is fresh, but India is surrounded by salty water. I feel more likely to meet someone else out beyond India, so I'll go that way first.

I agree, let's not rush!

EDIT: I read that CivAssistII can show whether a forest has a bg under it or not. This is my first game with a computer fast enough to use CAII and Civ3 at the same time, so I've never done it. Is is allowed?

Ok, I'm ready to start. I'm keeping in mind that this is our game, not mine, and remembering everyone's preferences. If it turns out I'm not doing what you wanted, well, I don't think everyone agrees on everything, it's inevitable, I'm doing the best I can!

 

[TimBentley]

EDIT: I read that CivAssistII can show whether a forest has a bg under it or not. This is my first game with a computer fast enough to use CAII and Civ3 at the same time, so I've never done it. Is is allowed?

I thought ainwood had fixed that, but apparently he hasn't. I would consider it an exploit: using information not obtainable in the game.

 

[Paul#42]

Ok, I'm ready to start. I'm keeping in mind that this is our game, not mine, and remembering everyone's preferences. If it turns out I'm not doing what you wanted, well, I don't think everyone agrees on everything, it's inevitable, I'm doing the best I can!

I'm confident that you got the right points.
To limit our units to 4 (worker, curragh, settler and another curragh or warrior makes some sense if we try to keep a high tech pace. But if we have 2 curraghs, 1 warrior and our worker and build another settler, we would run unit support deficit for just 5 turns max. I guess this is worth the better exploration with 2 curraghs. But I would also let the decision (2nd curragh) depend on what the first curragh finds. I think we will need a warrior till 3000 BC because of the barbs and as MP, won't we?

 

[Jove]

Ok, I've played 11 turns, up to 3500 BC. We've got a curragh and a worker, pottery is due in 2. Ummm, there aren't any food bonuses visible yet, so my build is curragh -> granary. One advantage of granary first is we get the pop build-up, so it gets done quicker... I think I'll wait a moment before I continue, it isn't too late to change if people really want a settler...

So far.. Ghandi is on a 1-tile island. Wail'll you see how many bonus tiles he has! He very well could be in a lake, at least to the NW he's hemmed in, by Mountains on the coast, no less

Why not, he're a screenie at 3500BC:

 

[CKS]

Granary sounds fine to me. The situation looks good for keeping India isolated. Mountains along the other side means that we don't have to worry about the AI settling near there and peeking at India.

 

[Jove]

OK, here's the first 20 turns. I don't feel like I made any big mistakes, in fact, you'll agree I cut the salami pretty thin

I was pretty detailed about how I go about my micromanagement. Most or all of you probably already know how to do all this, but if you didn't, now you don't have to ever admit it! I can be less detailed in the future. Usually all I do is look for something that will be done in 1 turn, either growth or production. Then I look to see if it can be done efficiently, or a surplus moved to something else. Since this is a team game, I'm trying to plan ahead a little more.

Since we learned Ceremonial Burial in the ibt before this turn, we can still change without wasting any beakers.

Note that I have a citizen set to specialist. Check the notes below for the explanation. We may want to fiddle with this granary production, we'll actually be 1sh short as it's set up now...

Also, I'm not so sure now that CAII is telling us where the bg's are under the forests. There's an option called 'Shield Forest Color' that paints our forests a different color. I now think it's telling me that we'll get 10sh if we chop that forest, it hasn't been chopped yet. If this is the case, what an awesome feature I've been doing without all along!!!

4000BC (turn 1) Worker east. Nothing exciting. Settler E.
Ibt- India builds their capitol.

3950 (turn 2) Found Trondheim. Set to Curragh. Worker to cow. Research Pottery at max, due in 14.
Delhi is already size=2. Must be on an island to join his worker!
Ibt- Zzzzz….

3900 (turn 3) Worker irrigates cow.
Ibt- zzzz…

3850 (turn 4) Zzzz…
Ibt- Zzzz..

3800 (turn 5) Zzzz…
Ibt- Zzzz…

3750 (turn 6) Zzzz… OK, we’ve got 12/20 food in the box, the worker will be done irrigating in 1. If we get 4 food from the irrigated cow, growth will be in 2 instead of 3.… And it works just like that. We’ll want to look for opportunities to ‘steal’ turns like this the whole game!
Just reminding myself that we’re Militaristic and Seafaring. X-tra movement, cheap harbors and barracks, plus extra commerce in the city center if settled on coast…
Ibt-Zzzz…

3700 (turn 7) Irrigation is done. Build road. Grow in 1, Curragh in 3... Shrinks to 2 with pop growth! Etc, I’ll quit pointing this out now.
Ibt- Zzzz…

3650 (turn 8) Zzzz… curragh in 1. We only need 2 shields to finish, the new citizen is working the bg. Move him to work the fresh water, +2bpt. Pottery goes from 8 to 5 turns away. Grow in 5. Looks like that’s it until we hit Monarchy. Size 2, everyone’s content.
Ibt- Zzzz…

3600 (turn 9) Curragh appears. Capitol to Barracks for Granary pre-build. Leaving citizen #2 working fresh water for now for improved science. We seem to be toward the south end of the minimap, so I’ll send this guy toward the North. Set sail. Arrrr!
Ghandi is on a 1-tile island.
Ibt- Zzzz…

3550 (turn 10) Road on cow done. We now earn +7bpt! Sci to 80% for +1gpt, Pottery still in 3.
Worker goes E to road that BG, and to see what’s over there. That tile will be in our borders by the time it’s worked.
Curragh goes NW, W. He’s surrounded by Whales! Already size 3, the bastard. Give Ghandi the finger, then wink theatrically as our curragh passes him to the North.
Ibt- Ghandi’s borders expand. He’s got an awful lot of bonus tiles to use.

3500 (turn 11) Pottery in 2. Move worker to BG for the extra shield, science to 100%, pottery still in 2. I checked the beaker counts in CAII to make sure this would work.
Curragh goes NW onto whales, SW, N. Our curragh gets 5 movement points. Coast costs 3, sea costs 2, so we can move 3 spots if we move 2 sea tiles first.
Road BG.
Ibt- Our borders expand.

3450 (turn 12) That freshwater lake is small, but if we place a town just right, looks like we can sail ships out of our capitol into the seas beyond…
Curragh S S S.
Pottery in 1. Grow in 1. Move citizen from BG to lake, sci to 70%, +2gpt, pottery still in 1.
There’s 7 shields in the box. Setting governor for production, next citizen should work a bg and get us up to 10sh in the box.
Ibt- Ghandi sends out a curragh, headed SE.
Learn Pottery. Set to Ceremonial Burial, big picture, science to 100%. 7 turns.

3400 (turn 13) There’s 11sh in the box, the citizen worked the forest tile! Move him to the BG that will be roaded in 1, giving us the benefit of a shield and a coin. CB in 8 for now, granary in 17.
Lux to 10%, one of our citizens is unhappy. Sure, we could make him a specialist, but if there’s one thing its worth sacrificing science for, it’s this first granary.
Curragh goes E, SE, E to block India. OK, they’re definitely in a lake. And there’s a forest game down here.
You might not be able to see it in the save, but to the west, the land is 1-tile thick in a lot of places, on both sides of that hill, for instance.
I think that island might be too good for Ghandi. We might think about capturing it with berserkers after he settles somewhere appropriate. We’ll want to block the tiles to the West so that he goes some other way.
Ibt- Foolish Ghandi-AI attacks our curragh. Lose 1 hp, promoted to Vet. Arrrr!
Ghandi’s pop decreased to 2 from 3 What’s he doing?

3350 (turn 14)- Road done. Extra coin ‘stole’ us a turn on CB. Before we mine or chop anything, I’m roading the other BG in the city radius.
Curragh goes S- land is 1 tile thick here too, but thicker to the SE, then back N.
Ibt- Zzzzz.

3300 (turn 15) Road bg. Curragh N, N. Ghandi has a spearman now. Did he pop whip that sucker? We should get our other enemies to pop whip things in their capitols!
Ibt- Zzzz.

3250 (turn 16) Curragh back to Trondheim. Too bad he can’t MP, but he does move faster through the Capitol square.
Ghandi’s pop down to 1!!
Ibt- Zzzz…
3200 (Turn 17) Curragh NE to end of lake (desert up there), then back. Can’t move into that N lake tile. What do we do with this curragh now?
Grow in 1, so move citizen from lake to BG for the extra shield and coin (road done in 1). CB in 4 for now, we’ve done 28/48 beakers toward CB thus far. So we can sacrifice a coin now, we’ll get it back and still learn CB in 3. (5 bpt now, will actually be 6 w/road, then 7 and 7!)
Ibt- Zzzz…

3150 (turn 18) Road done. Grow to 4. Move citizen from forest to lake. Lux to 20%, CB in 2!
Up to 29 sh in box @4spt. Granary in 8. Decide to waste a worker move, chop that forest. So, worker SW, S.
We’ll just move the curragh around for now in case there’s an AI out on walkabout.
I notice that the Always War doesn’t prevent us from offering peace, just so long as we don’t accept the deal. In this way I learn that Ghandi has Bronze Working.
Ibt- Zzzz….

3100 (turn 19) Worker W to Forest. Curragh NW, N. Still some hills to reveal here I guess… CB in 1, can’t lower science at all though.
Ibt- Learn Ceremonial Burial. Set to Mysticism.

3050 (turn 20) Start chop. 23sh to go on the granary. So, move a citizen from BG to lake. In 4 turns that’ll be 12sh @3spt, +2 when we grow in 3, +10 from the forest = 24sh. Therefore, Granary in 4, even though it says 8. We’ll waste a shield, sorry guys. If we want to delay the granary until after the chop to save the food box (and I recommend we do), let’s turn a bg citizen into a science specialist. Now we can lower lux to 10%, Mysticism in 10. Grow in 6 at this rate, but we’ll gain 10 food by waiting. Ok, but we need to finish the Granary too, move 1 lake citizen onto BG, Granary in 8... Mysticism in 11. But we gain 10 food... but we lose 2sh because we won't be growing in 3 anymore...
Curragh W, NW.
Save file.

 

[Jove]

OK, and here's the view at 3050BC:

 

[Jove]

Sorry folks, I'm having trouble accessing the maintenence thread. So, I'm attaching the save file to the bottom of this message. I'll go through the proper channels when I can...

 

[TimBentley]

Civfanatics.net is temporarily down. Just a minor note for the future: 4000 BC is considered turn 0. Quite an interesting map.

 

[Jove]

Now that I've had time to think about it, here's some notes:

- Boats can't get out of the start area until we settle a town to cross one of the land-bridges. There's one to the NE. Some hills on the ring to the SW. The land in that SW area is only 1-tile thick, then water again.

-We can get the granary in 4. We need 13 shields +10 from the chop. We ought to delay growth until the turn after the granary builds, for the bonus food. So we're at 3spt with a specialist for now.

- Just to consider: we can grow in 3 at the fastest. If we build warriors in 3, or 2, we can 'ride' the population up- each new unhappy citizen gets an MP. For 2 pop. It'd be a little science boost, we'd get some military pronto (1 could go out looking for friends), and we'd be able to build settlers faster. Or whatever we want. I mean, if we want pop growth, Trondheim has the best rate.

- I think I should've fortified the curragh. Ghandi attacked us once, he'll probably do it again. We don't want to just lose it now...

- When do we want more workers? This isn't the best land ever, is it?

-Ooops, I only played 19 turns I guess. Can we just let it roll?

 

[TimBentley]

Ooops, I only played 19 turns I guess. Can we just let it roll?

That's okay, the next player can play 11.

Civfanatics.net is back up, so you can upload the save.

 

[denyd]

I'd like to see us get a canal city ASAP to get a couple of curraghs out searching for neighbors. Also at least one exploring warrior to make sure we are alone on this land mass.

Now that we know Gandhi is locked in until Map Making we should find out where everyone else is as soon as possible. Do we want to prevent Gandhi from settling a second city or do we want to encourage his growth? My concern is the first thing he'll do is build an archer to attack with (after a pair of defensive spearmen of course).

 

[CKS]

First a note: Lets all make sure we have the resources installed. The tobacco in the lake is a bit disconcerting.

This is an interesting setup. We'll want to settle some land bridges; I don't know that we need to settle all of them, but we need to keep the AI from settling any that lead into India. The thought has crossed my mind that we may be isolated on our (bigger) island. For this reason, I'd like a settler as soon as the granary is done, so that we can explore beyond our current lakes. Probably we should settle to the east, as we could share BG with Trondheim; the mountains to the south are a gamble, as we don't know what's on the other side yet, and if we are restricted to fresh water tiles we will build slowly. After the settler, then some warriors for MP and exploring locally. The lack of any military makes me a little uncomfortable, though, so maybe one warrior first.

 

[CKS]

Do we want to prevent Gandhi from settling a second city or do we want to encourage his growth? My concern is the first thing he'll do is build an archer to attack with (after a pair of defensive spearmen of course).

I'd rather keep him to one city. I think we can keep him isolated from other AI if we do, allowing us to speed him to modern times. If circumstances change by the time map making comes along, though - for example, if someone else wanders by and sees him - then we'll need to let him out.