SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Jove]

Well, it comes back to corruption. As towns get farther away, each citizen produces 0-1 bpt instead of 1-2 (in despotism). So when you subtract 2 pop from the capitol, it's -4bpt until the settler builds a town, which might only yield +1bpt for a long time. If we stay below the OCN, we might have the opportunity to turn our settler pump into a worker pump, work the land in our core-core very well, and join some, all really early, 1750BC or so. So, if we do take a bpt hit from pop loss in the capitol (after 6-10 towns), it's a worker that builds a road or does something useful, before re-joining a town and restoring the bpt.

This is an idea to reach a Monarchy slingshot in strictly the shortest number of turns possible. Hopefully 1500BC or earlier. After that, we'll be sitting on a lot of population, maybe we can turn science to 0% if we really want to and buy settlers...

 

[Paul#42]

One thought about war weariness:
I read some threads yesterday and got the impression that ww is only related to lost units or cities and not directly to the enduration of a war. Can someone confirm (or deny) that?

That would mean that we could as well form a republic as long as we just sink indian ships.

EDIT: another action you can get ww for is having units on enemy territory which would bother our plans to deny Indias sea resources. So our blockade would be a little more ext(p)ensive.

Regarding war or build:
I would like to balance that, building some horses when we have the chance to and also libs and granaries where they are appropriate.

Size of core cities:
I think: All productive cities should reach size 6 as soon as possible, the few with more food surplus keep building settlers and workers and the other with food < +3 will grow to 12.

EDIT: IIRC every member can download any save (not making any moves) and check the situation. Also with Mapstat or CivAssist. Any objections to finding out who our rivals are and discussing that? Not sure if this will influence our research...

 

[denyd]

I'm thinking the major problem with WW is that it will never improve as the only way to relieve it is to sign peace

The real balancing act in this game is to keep the world moving at a fast science pace while we're expanding and coaxing India to expand. The safe method of victory in this one is to kill everyone except India and then move to our capital to a one tile island, defend it heavily and disband the rest of our military and let India conquer our nation with a single War Elephant. However, it might take them until 2040 AD to finally launch.

 

[pindicator]

That may be the safe method, denyd, perhaps a bit too safe. I think it will be very doable to keep several civs along for purposes of keeping the tech pace going. We are going to want a strong navy post-marines, but before then India is in no danger of being eliminated. And by the time we give India their core cities, they should be all right on their own, unless the AI dogpiles on them.

Early on we may see some phony AI wars as the AI tries to declare on he weak India. But they can't do anything against a one-tile island OCC.

 

[Jove]

That single war elephant would be fun to watch, but yeah, 2040 won't bring any laurels

More than keeping AI's around, maybe 1 or more will be our buddies (gift them tech and other goodies), even though Ghandi is our real favorite. Just how far up the tech tree can we expect AI's to contribute useful techs on Monarch, assuming we're very very nice It's awfully Machiaveilian, but we probably shouldn't destroy AI until they aren't useful anymore

EDIT: I downloaded the file, but so far I've been too chicken to open it. It must be okay though, or they wouldn't have released it.....?
Hmmmm, maybe we ought to start talking about the first 40 moves.

 

[TimBentley]

I'm pretty sure they can at least research replaceable parts and scientific ones can contribute free techs. I'll look at the save after finishing browsing the forum (and then I'll update my sig).

Edit: Our opponents are India, Mongols, Carthage, Ottomans, Celts, America, and Spain.

 

[denyd]

From that list, the Mongols, Celts & Spain have to go.

Reasoning:
Spain is SEA and I want to reduce the competition for control of the seas.
Celts are AGR and I always worry about AI with that trait as the expand too easily
Mongols are a PITA and should be destroyed on general principles

I'm on the fence about America as they usually are solid trading partners and usually aren't a threat until late in the game.

Carthage can be a pain but the cash they supply in the second half of the game makes it easier to tolerate them.

Ottomans are necessary to keep around until the get the Modern Age gift tech, though they need to be neutered (no SP or no Horses) by the time Siphai show up.

We need to keep at least one AI that's our friend and India's to allow us to get tech to India. The AI is notorious for researching IA techs when modern techs are available (IE Amphib War & Sanitation)

 

[Jove]

I agree about keeping these civs in check. However, if one of them is being good and learning a tech now and then, I think we should think twice before messing with them, even if it means building defensive units or something. Of course we have to wait and see how things develop too. And we will certainly have to expand somewhere.

I did a test start. We start with Warrior Code and the Alphabet. The latter will be nice for getting to philosophy first. Alphabet is not our monopoly though- Carthage and Spain have it too. What do we want to do? If we want to build a granary first thing, it's 14 turns to Pottery until we get some roads down. Could be slightly different in our 'live game' save. Maybe a barracks pre-build? We have to shave just 4 turns off, or do a turn of wealth, to hit Pottery before we hit 20 shields. To get a Monarchy slingshot we need Ceremonial Burial (cheap because India knows it right off), Mysticism, Polytheism, Writing, then be first to Philosophy. If we go for Polytheism before Writing, and trade nice, maybe one of the AI will get Writing for us... In any case, if we do learn writing first, it'll only speed up the AI in getting it and starting work on Philosophy, which we don't want.
Going for a granary first is a little riskier, but on Monarch we should be able to do it if we're careful. So: unless there's some really food-rich land nearby, or if it looks like Ghandi can get to us, I vote for a Granary first. OTOH, Mongols, Celts, and America start with pottery. Did Gyathaar culturally link the starts? What are the odds we'll meet one and trade for pottery before we could learn it ourselves? 5 turns to build a warrior, then we have 8 turns to meet one of them to come out ahead. But if we research CB and meet one of the AI that has that, we waste research turns then too What do you guys think will work best?

 

[CKS]

I'm pretty much in agreement with denyd about which civs to kill off. If we can keep India isolated, I'd like to have the Ottomans left in the modern age as a OCC, to get their free tech. Carthage is a pain to kill off early, so they might as well stick around until we get too far in front to get help from them in research.

I think we need a warrior or curragh first to get out exploring. We need to meet the AI, and we don't want them to come to us, because we want to keep India isolated.

As for research, we should get CB from India before declaring. I'm inclined to go for mysticism and try to trade for pottery.

Is the water to the east fresh or salt?

 

[CKS]

Other stuff I thought of:

How about suggestions on a play order? If I remember correctly, Jeff finished off the last one, so I'll suggest alphabetical starting with whoever comes after Jeff. I have no feelings about any order however.

If we only have units blockading India, ww from units may not be to bad, as long as we can avoid being attacked much. The units in their territory part, I think, goes away when the units aren't in their territory. We could blockade far back if we had a large enough navy. I'll have to read up on it to be sure. Monarchy will really cut into our research rate.

We don't want to leave every city for India to take at the end, just a nice core of productive cities for them, ideally a whole, nice-sized island so that it will be inconvenient for them to attack us and convenient for them to build a spaceship.

 

[TimBentley]

As for research, we should get CB from India before declaring. I'm inclined to go for mysticism and try to trade for pottery.

Is the water to the east fresh or salt?

We already start at war. The water is fresh.

I think we could go for writing, trade for mysticism, and research polytheism and philosophy before the AI researches map making and other miscellanous techs before philosophy.

 

[Jove]

I'm willing to consider Republic, CKS, but it seems to me so far that Monarchy would yield better science in Always War, even with the lower commerce. Would you argue pro Republic some more please? How good are you at controlling ww in Republic? The territory factor is new to me, maybe other facets of it are too... My concerns:
-Even controlling ww w/India, once we get in another war (and there's talk of wiping out civs already), ww will kick in all the worse. Lux @ 30-50% is bad for science too. Could use specialists, but in our core, it'll kill growth.
-Unit support is much lower in Monarchy. Especially if we go for the <OCN start, this will help alot in the early game.
-India isn't smart. They'll have horrible ww. If we convince all the AI to go Monarchy early, they may stay there the whole game. Handy when it comes time for Ghandi to launch.
There are a few more minor points. I think we should look at both sides of this closely. And we could go Republic, Monarchy later if it seems worth it (probably isn't).

1st build: Granary vs. military? I like the growth bonus of the early granary, but it's risky, and getting early contacts might speed science too. I'm not too attached on this one. If military, I vote curragh. We are Vikings.

Go for writing, trade for mysticism? It's new to me, hard to speak authoritatively on this one. But it sounds like a gamble that the AI will get Mysticism, that we'll know that AI... betting on the AI to perform is risky...

When do we learn Literature?

Berserks are expensive to upgrade from Archers. Pretty much worth it though. A force of 10 or even less Berserks can give us a killer military advantage!! (And a GA in the MA science doldrums) Where will we get them? What about Leo's? Gotta plan far ahead for that one... But wait, we want the Great Library too... Lighthouse? Colossus for the pretty science bonus? Can't have 'em all, how 'bout GLb and Colossus.

Last, I just want to add that to me, fast(est) science seems the real #1 key to this game. My ideas, however misguided, are all geared toward that.

 

[Paul#42]

I think we need a warrior or curragh first to get out exploring. We need to meet the AI, and we don't want them to come to us, because we want to keep India isolated.

I second that.

As for research, we should get CB from India before declaring.

Too late. We are already at war with them.

If we convince all the AI to go Monarchy early, they may stay there the whole game.

I don't think that we want that. I think we want them to be in republic for fast research and a more peaceful attitude (and more money to pay for our techs).

Regarding the tech path I am tending to testing republic, too. It's researching CoL instead of Mysticism (maybe even CB) and Polytheism with a lot more chance for good trades. I hope we don't have the need to switch to monarchy later... Anybody strongly against republic?

Research: Pottery first, then republic slingshot. Always at max.

Building: Warrior first, a curragh second and a granary third - maybe we skip the warrior? And we could have a worker or even a settler before the granary, if good land is nearby (That to find out I would like a warrior first).

Order: I would like to play on weekend or monday (second or third slot maybe) or in last slot because I start a new job on Tuesday which may take my attention...

 

[TimBentley]

Keeping units in India's territory would add a level of WW every 30 turns until the final level (100% unhappy people) after 120 turns. That would mean lux would eventually mostly nullify the commerce bonus of republic (and unit support would be more significant than what's left). I'd be inclined to go for monarchy unless we think we can blockade India without being in their territory.

Maybe researching mysticism and polytheism and trading for writing would be better if we go for monarchy. I think we could get pottery through trading.

I'd go for curragh first, then granary. Our curragh should meet one of the three civs with pottery before the prebuild expires.

I think we'd want the other civs to be in republic, but if they switch to fascism later that would work well towards the end.

 

[pindicator]

I am pretty strongly against Republic here, but I do not have a thorough understanding of WW. By what I know from my games is that once the WW goes up it doesn't go down on its own, and we will not have a way of stopping the war weariness outside of anarchy.

Look at the AW variants played. Does anybody go Republic? No, they all go Monarchy at first.

 

[Jove]

Good point about wanting the AI to be Republics. I think we'd want India to be Monarchy or something that doesn't have ww once it comes time to give them cities. Otherwise they won't produce space parts quickly. The other AI, I agree, we want in Republic.

Hmmmm, if we set up the AI's with Philosophy and CoL and don't trade them Polytheism, might that induce them to research the Repbublic on their own? It'd be awesome to pop Republic from a hut, just to trade around...

If we irrigate the cow first, (settling the BG) assuming we get the extra food in the ibt, we should shave 1 turn off growth. After that, I think we should build 2 roads. And from there, let's strive for every productive new citizen that appears to have a roaded tile to work. We give up production for science that way.

If we were to go pottery first, the 2nd citizen could be a science specialist until we hit pottery, just to avoid shield overflow on the prebuild. People seem to want to go curragh/warrior in some combo first though, I'm ok with that. Curraghs move 2 spaces, warriors only 1... Trade for pottery? Almost definitely will work, and learning Mysticism first will give us a monopoly. We'd get all first level techs just for that. Could be the fastest science path after all.

I don't think we should build a worker before the Granary, since the Granary essentially makes them 1/2 price food-wise. If there's super-abundant land around, maybe then.

On Republic: I'm still not convinced that we won't crash from War Weariness and be forced into a second period of anarchy. If we get attacked, it'll skyrocket. I like Republics, but this seems the wrong scenario for it.

 

[Jove]

One more thing, sorry. To hit 4 turn research later, we're going to want to lean heavily on science specialists. We'll want 100 of them, possibly many more. Just a couple specialists in the early stages can make a big difference. So, we'll want population out the wazoo. If they're happier, they can multiply faster.

 

[jeffelammar]

Good discussions guys, this week at work has been a bear, so I haven't spent as much time reading this as I should have.

Couple Thoughts
1. Deny's Kill list seems good at first approximation. We definately want the Sci civs around.
2. Monarchy/Republic - I agree that War Weariness would kill us in Republic. I say Monarchy is the way to go.
3. Curragh -> Granary is probably what I would do, but the other plans are good too.
4. Jove's last point is a good one. Since we won't be able to go Republic, Monarchy, specialists will be vital.
5. I think that building India a nice core is a really good Idea. In fact, if it is a good enough core, we could build it, Get it into their hands and take out there capitol to force a jump there.

CKS's suggestion for turn order seems good assuming Jove doesn't mind starting us off. We can change this around if someone doesn't like the order.
Jove
Paul#42
pindicator
TimBentley
CKS
denyd
jeffelammar

 

[CKS]

Okay, Monarchy it is. Either curragh, granary or curragh, warrior is fine with me. From my perspective, exploration is more important than ultrafast research in the earliest part of the game, because we need to know who is around and how to keep them from India. If we can't keep India out of contact, the GL elevator won't work so well. If we can't isolate them, we'll have to set them up with a nice core earlier, and it will be harder to manipulate them. Once we have them isolated, then we need to grow and research as fast as possible.

We're also going to have to try to build a bunch of early wonders. We need the GL to be close to India, so they'll take it when we want them to. We'll need the great lighthouse to keep anyone else from getting it. If someone else gets it then it will be harder to keep them from India. The Colossus would be nice for research. If we find a close neighbor, maybe we can get them to build the library for India, but it needs to be close or India will never get to it.

This is even trickier than I initially anticipated.

 

[Jove]

Welcome back jeffelammar!

I can start off if that's ok with everyone else, and if you all can wait until Monday. I want to make sure we're all on the same page though.

- We're settling 1 E, on the BG, right? I'll move the worker first, if anything really exciting shows up, well, we'll see.
- What are we researching? Ceremonial Burial? (at max)
- Worker to cow, irrigate, road, move, well, that's 10 right there isn't it?
- Curragh first I think. That'd pretty much be 10 right there too...

Not really much else, is there? Heck, maybe I can find a way to do it tomorrow.


I agree we're going to want some wonders. Where do we want to build them? I'm still thinking of founding on the BG, but we are giving up a more productive location on the plains 2NE. Just thought I'd bring it up once more before we commit.

Also on wonders, I agree on the GLb and the Colossus. Not sure about the Lighthouse this time. We're driven to max out science if we want to win, so we'll pass by Navigation relatively early. Might have enough to do until then. Even though the GL is useful, maybe we have a better use for 300 shields under the circumstances.