SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Jove]

Maybe he doesn't post weird and unrelated thoughts at that time

Yes, I admit it. I was thinking the same thing today. Well, a good team is an honest team.

Did you find any clue that our rep is trashed?

By 'kinda late' I meant my bringing it up again. Just for future reference... Didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you of making a mistake

Will ww be a factor in this game or did we miscalculate that?

I could swear we get ww in Republic sooner or later, regardless of other circusmstances. Just from experience, I don't have a solid rule to cite. If that turns out to be wrong, switching governments ought to be worth it.

All the time, but I'm a retired gentleman of leisure, what's your excuse?

Well actually, my job keeps me up late. I regularly get home around 1-3 AM. So it's not as nutty as it looks when I'm posting this late. Still, keeping up with 'normal'-scheduled people has left me pretty zonked lately. To be safe, I'll wait until the sun is out before I say any more today. (unless I can find that relevant quote I'm looking for...)

 

[jeffelammar]

Channel City builds Great Library starts Leonardo’s Workshop (due in 34, can be switch to Forbidden Palace due in 12)

I'm torn. The FP would be a nice boost to research, but we'd lose the FP when we perform our India GL Elevator, so I think a different city would be better for the FP. (But we should build it ASAP)

IBT: Obtain The Republic from Great Library (we might want to discuss switching after we own the whole island)

Didn't we decide that our WW with India would kill us? Or did we have a solution for that?
Since we don't have to decide for a while, I'll hold off on answering this.

By the way. I have the save and will try to play tonight.

 

[denyd]

Channel City is easily our most productive city so it's probably the best place for wonder building. We're probably better off putting the FP in a northern location as once India is allowed to come ashore we'll starting losing the southern ones first.

Any reason not to let the Celts become the super-power on the other island?

Hovd is defended by at least one spear (with an archer next door), so I'd plan on 2 MDI & the Elite Warrior for that city. The other MDI should head north to start snatching pieces of the Mongol core. I've only seen spears & archers from the Mongols so far and he's still in the AA, so we'll be about a 2 to 1 favorite for each battle.

Just in case we happen to get lucky and get a MGL, what's the plan for him. I'd like to use him right away to give ourselves a chance for more, so my choice would be the FP in a northern city. Any army would probably have be either Berserks or MDI and to be able to move it anywhere off island will prevent it from having more than 2 units in it until Magnetism (Galleons). I'm thinking our neighbors aren't really going to put up much resistance except for Numidians on hills. Our MDI should be able to take out the Mongols & Ottoman. We can then use the Beserks on Carthage and get our GA going about the right time for Universities.

Once we get to Astronomy, I'd like to send a couple of caravels of Berserks to take out Spain and claim the Great Lighthouse.

 

[jeffelammar]

Just in case we happen to get lucky and get a MGL, what's the plan for him. I'd like to use him right away to give ourselves a chance for more...

In General I like my first one to be an Army, even if it would be stuck on the island. You can never really count on a second one, so I like to get my army first. That said, I think a FP is valid as well. The big question would be where do we want it?

Stavanger might be a good candidate. It's fairly corrupt, and has high growth potential, plus can work 4 Sea squares for commerce.

 

[pindicator]

My turn isn't it? I'll grab it and play by Friday night.

 

[jeffelammar]

My turn isn't it? I'll grab it and play by Friday night.

Actually I think it is mine, then Jove, then you. I'll go back and check the thread though.

 

[jeffelammar]

I went back and checked and it sure looks like I'm up..

Turnset 1 - Jove
Turnset 2 - Pindicator
Turnset 3 - TimBentley
Turnset 4 - Paul #42
Turnset 5 - CKS
Turnset 6 - Jeffelammar (note we skipped Denyd here because he was out of town and busy)
Turnset 7 - Jove
Turnset 8 - Pindicator
Turnset 9 - TimBentley
Turnset 10 - Paul #42
Turnset 11 - CKS
Turnset 12 - Denyd

Roster
Jove << On Deck
pindicator
TimBentley
Paul#42
CKS
denyd <== Just Played
jeffelammar <== UP

 

[pindicator]

looks like i mixed up jove and denyd

sorry guys, I'm currently unpacking and getting settled in a new place and making lists of errands that I need and yet consistently forget to do, so my attention isn't completely here nor there right now. Everything's been a little lately.

 

[Paul#42]

Endgame
Regarding our being after India took over our fertile soil - how long do you guys think India will need to go to space?

I thought when India will have taken our whole continent we can just lean back and watch the process from our little island... to easy thinking?

I suffered a space loss only once and cannot tell how long it took Xerxes to build those parts. He was on an island for a long time and had nothing left to do I guess.

Maybe India will build lots of culture buildings first (they will have been missing Bollywood movies too long and will be overmatched by their own power) .

If you think (are convinced) that we still have to be a superpower after that we might want to build the FP on an Island to stay in power when we conquer the other continent. If we share an island with the Ottomans we can even better control them.

And that could be a reason not to make the Celts a superpower - it will be easier to conquer with several (>1) civs on that continent. But with armies we won't have trouble with that anyway.

leaders
I would prefer an army first. I do not see problems building it on our starting continent - by the time we want to carry it elsewhere we will have transports.

 

[Jove]

Ok, ready to talk sense now.

-If we use a leader for an army, I think we should definitely put berserks in it. Almost nothing can stand against an (amphibious) Berserk army.

-The Ottomans could cause us trouble if they meet the other civs. I'd prefer to isolate them inland than on an island.

- There's talk of switching to Republic. Please refer to 'How does War Weariness Work?' by Oysterin in the War Academy, in the Game Mechanics section.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/war_weariness.php

-We want to get the most bang out of AI research. Please refer to 'What will the AI research next?' by alexman http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/ai_research.php
There's gotta be a way we can manipulate this information to our advantage.

-Everyone's talking about where to put the FP. Please refer to 'Everything about corruption: C3C edition' by alexman http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/corruption_c3c.php

I want to do some calculations with the formulas in the last thread to try and pick an ideal FP spot. In the daylight though not now. The trick is, it's not as cut-and-dried as that. The 'ideal' spot that reduces corruption the most empire-wide might take 100 turns to build, at which point the advantage will have passed us by, for instance. And, we don't get paid for this, at a certain point it's time to just estimate and make a decision. I'm also curious if it's possible to go so far over the OCN that it's counter-productive. Is it ever true that 'less is more' in C3C?

-Super-power Celts? Sure, why not. Let's just make sure we get all the land we want for 4-turn research...

-According to the introduction message by AlanH, this is a Monarch game. We shouldn't be too scared of the AI challenging us militarily, and probably shouldn't expect too much research out of them either. Maybe the best use of excess leaders will be to rush Universities? It seems unlikely we'll need more than 1 army...

Maybe India will build lots of culture buildings first (they will have been missing Bollywood movies too long and will be overmatched by their own power) .

I really wonder what they'll do too. Maybe if we're in a position to trade them lots of lux they'll be less likely to do that...?

 

[Paul#42]

Effect of ww in war:

All government:
Level -1: 25% happy people

Republic:
Level 1: 25% unhappy people
Level 2: 50% unhappy people
Level 3: 50% unhappy people
Level 4: 100% unhappy people

Okay, I stop talking about republic right away. I was confused over that war happiness we had and thought we could also get ww in monarchy.
We'll stay loyal to our king.

 

[denyd]

If we can get Sun Tzu, Internet & Pyramids built on our island, India will get autiomatic Research Labs, Barracks & Granaries in all of our lost cities. What I'd like to do is conquer our island getting an MGL in one of the last battles. Then move on to taking Spain and place the FP over there. That can then become our primary center of expansion (and a place to build the military academy) once we allow India to come ashore.

 

[CKS]

If we can get Sun Tzu, Internet & Pyramids built on our island, India will get autiomatic Research Labs, Barracks & Granaries in all of our lost cities. What I'd like to do is conquer our island getting an MGL in one of the last battles.

This is a lovely plan. I'm a little unsure about how to manage the last thing, though. Also, moving the Pyramids may be a bit difficult.

 

[denyd]

I was hoping that the Pyramids got built on our island, but upon further review two out of three wouldn't be bad. We could use the pyramids to help our growth on the other island. As for the MGL with the Heroic Epic completed and a big stack of Elite Berserks chopping on the Celts, it's just a matter of time before we'd get one.

looks like i mixed up jove and denyd

Which is a compliment to me

 

[jeffelammar]

The Save

Turn 0 - 50AD
MM Oslo to get 2 extra commerce still finish unit in 1.
I'm not wild about the 1 pop cities with a scientist. Seems like we'd be better off growing them to support multiple specialists later.
I'm going to work on getting a couple of them to higher pops.

IBT
Watch Ottoman Warrior kill Mongol Archer.
Trondheim Library -> Harbor
Oslo MI -> Aqueduct

Turn 1 - 70AD
Warrior to Trond for MP.
Keep moving into position for attack on Mongols.
Consider trading, but decide to hold off a bit.
Sci in Stockholm to avoid riot.

IBT
Bergen Settler -> Treb
Reykjavik MI -> Aqua
Aarhus MI -> Berserk
Bodo Library -> Courthouse
Vadso Harbor -> Worker
Farsund Barracks -> Spear
Ottomans start Sun Tsu

Turn 2 - 90AD
Move up. Do a run of micromanagment.
Rush Lib in Risor. It works a bunch of sea squares and this will get more fish.

IBT
Risor Lib -> Harbor

Turn 3 - 110AD
Almost in position for attack...Check Trades.

IBT
Trondheim Harbor -> Marketplace

Turn 4 - 130 AD
Declare war on Mongols. Advance troops on Hovd and Tabriz

IBT
Arghh. Toughy Brennus comes demanding Literature. Take a break to think it over. Part of me wants to refuse, but they are paying 13 gpt, so I agree.
The don't trade it, so I will probably do it.

Turn 5 - 150 AD
Battle of Hovd
V. MI dies vrs V Spear. Spear promotes to 3/5
V. MI kills 3/3 Spear.
E. Warrior kills 3/5 spear and takes Hovd. Hire a sci there because the cit hates us.

Battle of Tabriz
V. MI kills 3/3 Spear
V. MI dies vrs 3/3 Spear it promotes and ends at 2/4
V. MI finishes the 2/4 spear, promotes to Elite and takes Tabriz.
Don't trade Lit to Spain and America yet. Wait a turn and see if the have more $$. I know it's a risk.

IBT
Celts building Sun Tsu.

Turn 6 - 170 AD
V. MI kills R Archer and promotes to Elite.
Advance some.
Taxes down still get in one.
Switch scis to taxmen.
Damn Spain got Lit, trade it to America for what we can get. Give them 27 gold, then sell lit for 34.

IBT
Learn Theology -> Education

Turn 7 - 190 AD
Advance on mongol city. Rehire the scientists.

IBT
Bergen Treb -> Aqua

Turn 8 - 210 AD
Battle of Ulaanbaatar
V. MI dies vrs 3/3 spear. Spear uninjured.
v. MI kills 3/3 spear. Promotes to Elite.
E. MI dies vrs 3/3 spear

IBT
Say sorry for having a Galley in Carthage.
Odense Rax -> Pike

Turn 9 - 230 AD
Battle of Ulaanbaatar
V. MI dies vrs 4/4 spear. (sometimes I hate the RNG)
V. MI kills spear and takes it (finally, and it isn't even on a Hill. Just plain fortified Spears)

IBT
Birka Rax -> Serk


Turn 10 - 250 AD
Heal units for next player.
I didn't check trading or do MM for this turn, prefer to let Jove set things the way he want em.


I probably could have done a slightly better job at trading, and the 3 MIs at Ulaanbaatar hurt. We might want to switch some builds back to Military.

I think the remaining troops should suffice to take one more city, but unless we get lucky we're going to have to bring up more troops to continue into Mongolia. They are down to 4 cities, but they are core cities.

 

[Jove]

Which is a compliment to me

And, a compliment to me

 

[Jove]

Ok, awesome. I can dig your choices, jeffelamar.
Looks like I'm up. I'd like to wait awhile before I play to grok the discussion. What's really the biggest goal of the next 10 turns?

 

[Paul#42]

E. Warrior kills 3/5 spear and takes Hovd.

I can't believe you took that risk...

Bad RNG but good progress anyway.

I had thought we would be giving away lit and republic faster to encourage more science (and peace on earth ).

I would like the FP earlier (because I tend to think the conquest of our continent takes some time)... But maybe we send one galley over to take one quick city on the other continent - or we build FP on the island to East. But let's get a leader first...

 

[denyd]

Looks like Genghis is on the ropes. Is there any realy benefit is signing peace with him? Let's just take a turnset to reinforce our front line with new MDI units (should be able to build 6-8 during the turn set) and then move in for the kill. With a little positive RNG the Mogols will be gone in 20 turns. We'll also have our troops on the Ottoman border and after a couple of turns of R&R we can start on him. We should be getting education soon and then will be starting on universities. That's about time for a couple of Berserks to hop on a galley or two and begin wreaking havoc on Carthage. With luck by the time it gets back to me we'll be all alone with India on this island.

Have we decided where is a good place to keep the Ottomans? Maybe Tabriz would be a nice place?

 

[CKS]

Suits me.

Spend a while building up the military again in preparation for eliminating denyd's hated Mongols. Work on libraries and harbors in places where we don't need military builds. Study education and then on to astronomy. Channel City should build Copernicus' Observatory, as production and commerce are both good there. If things go well and we can afford prebuilds for universities (rather than needing more military), I think we should.