jeffelammar
Space for rent
Just realized I left one detail off. The landing strip on the Celtic land mass is on the hill 1 north of "New Risor". Building it destroyed the mine, but since it was totally corrupted anyway...
SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Yeah, nice job. Looks like the crazy part of the mm is over, and the crazy military hasn't really started.
Do we want to build more arty?
Can anyone think of what might persuade India to actually build boats and invade Spain?
Do we want to build more arty?
Can anyone think of what might persuade India to actually build boats and invade Spain?
pindicator
Emperor
You mean convincing them to invade instead of nuking us?
I imagine leaving a coastal town withiout defenders would be a good start.
I imagine leaving a coastal town withiout defenders would be a good start.
Hey, with our current save we lead the (C3C-)pack in culture (all the way) and by territory!! 
We need to revise our buildings in Spain in regards to it being India colony...
I think once India gets Navigion and world map it will find a way to sail over. A coastal town might speed that up but I think they will rather focus on land units until they have the whole continent grabbed.
We need to revise our buildings in Spain in regards to it being India colony...
I think once India gets Navigion and world map it will find a way to sail over. A coastal town might speed that up but I think they will rather focus on land units until they have the whole continent grabbed.
denyd
Emperor
Looks like it's back to me - I won't be able to play tonight - Gotta a date with wife 
- If Jove wants to play a set tonight, I can pick up tomorrow otherwise I'll play on Wednesday.
to Jeff - Delhi is ours and soon Aarhus will have a culture expansion and Gandhi can start building troops. We should probably starve Delhi down to size one and rush a harbor ASAP
Once India rides the elevator our main concerns will be protecting Gandhi from Brennus, financing India's space program and getting the needed resources to build a space ship.
I'm thinking that as soon as India reaches the modern era we should begin snacking on the Celts. As for artillery & bombers, while they very effective in reducing enemy defenders, they have 2 major disadvantages. First they are slow movers (artillery) or need to be re-based often (bombers) to remain effective. Second, do you remember how painful it was to bombard with 50 artillery pieces before attacking the 5 defenders.
One thing we might consider is building a Mech Inf Army and basing it at the N-S choke point in Celtic lands. That army would have a base defense if 36 and with city walls & civil defense and fortified that would give it a defense of nearly 80. If we let the Celts commit mass suicide on this pillar of strength while we capture all of the southern lands we'd be able to move northward with out back door secure and with many fewer defenders to kill.
I just checked and nukes need aluminum & uranium to build. I know that the SS Engine needs uranium, but do any SS parts require aluminum?
A couple of final notes before I actually do some work today. We might want a small navy (4-5 destroyers, 2-3 cruisers & a couple N-Subs) to patrol the seas. Being able to nuke a Celtic task force before it lands is a great way to prevent invasions. It might be possible to let what remains of the Celts supply the Indians with the missing resources as well as cash we'd funnel their way.
- If Jove wants to play a set tonight, I can pick up tomorrow otherwise I'll play on Wednesday. to Jeff - Delhi is ours and soon Aarhus will have a culture expansion and Gandhi can start building troops. We should probably starve Delhi down to size one and rush a harbor ASAPOnce India rides the elevator our main concerns will be protecting Gandhi from Brennus, financing India's space program and getting the needed resources to build a space ship.
I'm thinking that as soon as India reaches the modern era we should begin snacking on the Celts. As for artillery & bombers, while they very effective in reducing enemy defenders, they have 2 major disadvantages. First they are slow movers (artillery) or need to be re-based often (bombers) to remain effective. Second, do you remember how painful it was to bombard with 50 artillery pieces before attacking the 5 defenders.
One thing we might consider is building a Mech Inf Army and basing it at the N-S choke point in Celtic lands. That army would have a base defense if 36 and with city walls & civil defense and fortified that would give it a defense of nearly 80. If we let the Celts commit mass suicide on this pillar of strength while we capture all of the southern lands we'd be able to move northward with out back door secure and with many fewer defenders to kill.
I just checked and nukes need aluminum & uranium to build. I know that the SS Engine needs uranium, but do any SS parts require aluminum?
A couple of final notes before I actually do some work today. We might want a small navy (4-5 destroyers, 2-3 cruisers & a couple N-Subs) to patrol the seas. Being able to nuke a Celtic task force before it lands is a great way to prevent invasions. It might be possible to let what remains of the Celts supply the Indians with the missing resources as well as cash we'd funnel their way.
It just doesn't seem right to Civ on V-Day. It's going to come down to taking the ex- out for a drink or making myself available to all the lonely single women of Denver. It's like I'm running a lottery! 
So go ahead and pick it up tomorrow, denyd.
Good point about arty, they can be a pain. Maybe we can add a few carriers to our military shopping list? I agree that some kind of navy is a good idea.
I'm thinking that getting India to invade overseas will be hugely problematic. Keeping the Celts around, or gifting the Ottomans into resources, seems by far a more reliable method. So let's not eliminate any more tribes until we're sure of how to win this!
So go ahead and pick it up tomorrow, denyd. Good point about arty, they can be a pain. Maybe we can add a few carriers to our military shopping list? I agree that some kind of navy is a good idea.
I'm thinking that getting India to invade overseas will be hugely problematic. Keeping the Celts around, or gifting the Ottomans into resources, seems by far a more reliable method. So let's not eliminate any more tribes until we're sure of how to win this!
I had an idea: We control the uranium/aluminum we need just long enough to get started on whatever we need it for, if anything. Then, we gift only the resource to the Ottomans/Celts. Now they have 1. Then, we gift them a city that controls the resource. They have an instant surplus, but we still control the land. Then, we've got 20 turns to convince the chosen AI to trade their surplus resources to India. Since Otto already knows Ghandi, I'd rather use him for this. Unless that embargo screws it up. 
Jove said:I had an idea: We control the uranium/aluminum we need just long enough to get started on whatever we need it for, if anything. Then, we gift only the resource to the Ottomans/Celts. Now they have 1. Then, we gift them a city that controls the resource. They have an instant surplus, but we still control the land. Then, we've got 20 turns to convince the chosen AI to trade their surplus resources to India. Since Otto already knows Ghandi, I'd rather use him for this. Unless that embargo screws it up.
I like that idea - at least for the time till Gandhi tries to settle in Spain on his own.
Aluminum is only needed for Apollo Programm (and almost every space ship part) - so maybe Gandhi would never miss it
But maybe that's the reason why some teams don't get Gandhi to head for space
To cancel the embargo we might resign a peace deal with Osman some time and "convince" him to declare on Gandhi...
I think we have >20 turns left till elevator day, haven't we?
denyd
Emperor
Based on prior posts what is left before the elevator:
Tech: (beakers / turns left)
Satellites (6933 / in process with 4 left)
Nuclear Power (7466 / 5)
The Laser (7466 / 5)
Superconductor (8000 / 6)
Robotics (8533 / 6)
About 26 turns until elevator can be used - I've got about 3 hours to play tonight, so I'll base the length of my set on how many I can play in that time.
I listed the techs by ascending cost. Is there any reason to change from that path? Would it help us to rearrange that order?
A couple of other off that wall questions that I thought of while stuck in traffic this morning.
1. Would it help us to switch to Communism after the elevator has been completed? Corruption in Spain would drop and we could build the SPHQ to reduce corruption even more.
2. If we gifted the Ottomans a pair of cities with Aluminum and then killed off their one remaining home island city would we create a situation where they might be willing to ally with India against us and deal resources to India.
3. At what point should we begin to take out Brennus? We've got about 5 turns left on the current ROP. I should probably renew it (right?)
4. Is there any reason not to nuke the Celts? 8-10 ICBM's could reduce his large cities and primary defense forces to rubble.
5. Any idea if there is a threat of accidentally winning via domination or 100K? I'm pretty sure that I read that Diplomatic was turned off. Is the UN even available to be built then?
6. Has the Ottomans begun Manhattan Project yet? As long as no one builds it, then there's no risk of nuclear war, however Gandhi is liable to waste 800 shields building it.
!!! IDEA ALERT !!!!
If we made uranium & aluminum available to Gandhi so that he'd start the Manhattan Project and then once he got over 500 shields completed (of the 800 needed for Manhattan) we completed the Manhattan Project, wouldn't he likely switch to the most valuable wonder available, Apollo Program.
7. Would Delhi be a nice little place to tuck Brennus away before we start the war with him?
Tech: (beakers / turns left)
Satellites (6933 / in process with 4 left)
Nuclear Power (7466 / 5)
The Laser (7466 / 5)
Superconductor (8000 / 6)
Robotics (8533 / 6)
About 26 turns until elevator can be used - I've got about 3 hours to play tonight, so I'll base the length of my set on how many I can play in that time.
I listed the techs by ascending cost. Is there any reason to change from that path? Would it help us to rearrange that order?
A couple of other off that wall questions that I thought of while stuck in traffic this morning.
1. Would it help us to switch to Communism after the elevator has been completed? Corruption in Spain would drop and we could build the SPHQ to reduce corruption even more.
2. If we gifted the Ottomans a pair of cities with Aluminum and then killed off their one remaining home island city would we create a situation where they might be willing to ally with India against us and deal resources to India.
3. At what point should we begin to take out Brennus? We've got about 5 turns left on the current ROP. I should probably renew it (right?)
4. Is there any reason not to nuke the Celts? 8-10 ICBM's could reduce his large cities and primary defense forces to rubble.
5. Any idea if there is a threat of accidentally winning via domination or 100K? I'm pretty sure that I read that Diplomatic was turned off. Is the UN even available to be built then?
6. Has the Ottomans begun Manhattan Project yet? As long as no one builds it, then there's no risk of nuclear war, however Gandhi is liable to waste 800 shields building it.
!!! IDEA ALERT !!!!
If we made uranium & aluminum available to Gandhi so that he'd start the Manhattan Project and then once he got over 500 shields completed (of the 800 needed for Manhattan) we completed the Manhattan Project, wouldn't he likely switch to the most valuable wonder available, Apollo Program.
7. Would Delhi be a nice little place to tuck Brennus away before we start the war with him?
jeffelammar
Space for rent
1. Communism would be a strong government at that point. What I'm not sure of is if it is worth it. At that point our main goals will be.
a. Research Espionage
b. Build up lots of $$$ for spying
Does the 6-7 turn anarchy offset it. Maybe?
2. I think that we want to try that. (At least till India takes a city on Spain's island. Then we take the cities back from Ottomans so that India can take them from us.
3. Yes, renew ROP.
4. Only reason not to use nukes is that that will be our new core we'd be nuking. We probably could use the population. Still, it might be fun and I don't see where it would really hurt us.
5. I don't think there is any danger of "losing" because we hit 100K or Domination.
Last time I checked we were still under 16000 culture and our cpt will plummet when India takes the Internet.
As for Domination, we need to make sure we hold our Island holdings, but as long as we do that I think we are OK. We currently own all of the homeland and Spain, and we are short of the Dom limit, so that should mean the same for India once they own all that. Check to make sure I'm right on this, but I'm fairly confident.
7. I don't think we know enough to make this call yet. My gut says that elimiating Brenny will be the right way to go, but since we don't have to make that call for another 25 turns... That is at least 2 or 3 turnsets, and we'll have a better idea then.
a. Research Espionage
b. Build up lots of $$$ for spying
Does the 6-7 turn anarchy offset it. Maybe?
2. I think that we want to try that. (At least till India takes a city on Spain's island. Then we take the cities back from Ottomans so that India can take them from us.
3. Yes, renew ROP.
4. Only reason not to use nukes is that that will be our new core we'd be nuking. We probably could use the population. Still, it might be fun and I don't see where it would really hurt us.
5. I don't think there is any danger of "losing" because we hit 100K or Domination.
Last time I checked we were still under 16000 culture and our cpt will plummet when India takes the Internet.
As for Domination, we need to make sure we hold our Island holdings, but as long as we do that I think we are OK. We currently own all of the homeland and Spain, and we are short of the Dom limit, so that should mean the same for India once they own all that. Check to make sure I'm right on this, but I'm fairly confident.
7. I don't think we know enough to make this call yet. My gut says that elimiating Brenny will be the right way to go, but since we don't have to make that call for another 25 turns... That is at least 2 or 3 turnsets, and we'll have a better idea then.
Stuck in traffic, huh? I think about civ at odd times too...
Well, I'll answer what I can of your questions:
1. I don't think communism will help. Less corruption is good, but it'll cost 6 turns of anarchy, and we really won't have very many cities after the elevator (assuming we give up the whole proto-continent), which is when communism is at its best.
2. That could work. It 'feels' right that a military alliance would make 'em trade. Is that actually a fact?
3. I don't know. We're still getting over 100gpt from them, and we're only average v. them. I think we need greater numbers for sure, but I'm not sure of the 'best' time yet...
4. I've always felt that starting the nuclear exchanges makes everyone want to nuke you eventually. If we never start, the AI may never start...
5. Domination: yes, we need to be careful. 100k: Technically yes, but once Ghandi takes all our homeland cities, I doubt will get close to 100k. Diplo? It doesn't look like we can build the UN, so I'd say its off.
6. That's clever. Who knows, maybe it'd work. If we really want to gamble on this, we could keep Trondheim and Stockholm only, so that we could bang out Manhattan Project in 8 turns when the time comes. Hey: if the Manhattan Project is destroyed, does it end the possibility of nukes?
7. Depends if we want him meeting Ghandi. I'd say Ratae Coritanorum, but it's loaded with resources. How about Zaragoza?
It looks like we could still use more bpt. Simply joining workers for specialists seems the quickest thing now. Maybe turn wealth to workers in the food towns, and squeeze a few out where appropriate? We may not be able to hit 4-turn research, but we can come close. Carthage, with Civil Engineers, can finish it's market in 1, and crank workers at a decent pace... I don't know how hard you guys want to push this close to the end. I think we still have a few turns of research to gain...
EDIT: looks like you beat me to it, jeff
Well, I'll answer what I can of your questions:
1. I don't think communism will help. Less corruption is good, but it'll cost 6 turns of anarchy, and we really won't have very many cities after the elevator (assuming we give up the whole proto-continent), which is when communism is at its best.
2. That could work. It 'feels' right that a military alliance would make 'em trade. Is that actually a fact?
3. I don't know. We're still getting over 100gpt from them, and we're only average v. them. I think we need greater numbers for sure, but I'm not sure of the 'best' time yet...
4. I've always felt that starting the nuclear exchanges makes everyone want to nuke you eventually. If we never start, the AI may never start...
5. Domination: yes, we need to be careful. 100k: Technically yes, but once Ghandi takes all our homeland cities, I doubt will get close to 100k. Diplo? It doesn't look like we can build the UN, so I'd say its off.
6. That's clever. Who knows, maybe it'd work. If we really want to gamble on this, we could keep Trondheim and Stockholm only, so that we could bang out Manhattan Project in 8 turns when the time comes. Hey: if the Manhattan Project is destroyed, does it end the possibility of nukes?
7. Depends if we want him meeting Ghandi. I'd say Ratae Coritanorum, but it's loaded with resources. How about Zaragoza?
It looks like we could still use more bpt. Simply joining workers for specialists seems the quickest thing now. Maybe turn wealth to workers in the food towns, and squeeze a few out where appropriate? We may not be able to hit 4-turn research, but we can come close. Carthage, with Civil Engineers, can finish it's market in 1, and crank workers at a decent pace... I don't know how hard you guys want to push this close to the end. I think we still have a few turns of research to gain...
EDIT: looks like you beat me to it, jeff
My (possibly) bright idea: What about moving Ghandi to the Spanish island and not allowing him to keep the starting continent? This gives him all the resources he needs for spaceship stuff. It has no oil, so there will be a lot of modern military units he can't build, making war less painful, especially if we stay far away from him. We will have to get him to build a boat, but leaving all those cities empty while occupying southern cities on the home continent should encourage him to do so. If we can't arrange continuing trades for resources, I think we should work toward this. This would mean we should continue to develop the Spanish island as it would eventually be Ghandi's core.
My thoughts about denyd's list.
1. I don't think switching to communism will be worth it. Our empire will be smallish (unless we retake the home continent, as above) and a long anarchy would be a pain during wartime. I don't think we need to worry too much about corruption, either. All we need to do is keep Ghandi from winning some other way; we don't need to research or build an army to sustain an offensive.
2. I think this is worth a try.
3. Renew the ROP. I think we'll probably want to take out the Celts close to elevator time, after we've sucked them dry.
4. Like Jove, I think that not using nukes makes everyone else less likely to use them, so I'd prefer not to use them. The longer we delay nuclear war, the less tedious the last turns will be.
5. I don't think we have to worry about 100k, but we do need to watch the domination limit, both for us and for India. At the end of my turns we were about 75 tiles from domination, so we don't have to worry too much; the home continent and Spain aren't enough.
6. Interesting idea. We'd also have to make sure that there were no other wonders available, but I like the idea of subverting his warlike instincts.
7. I'm leaning toward wiping the Celts out completely, rather than keeping them around.
My thoughts about denyd's list.
1. I don't think switching to communism will be worth it. Our empire will be smallish (unless we retake the home continent, as above) and a long anarchy would be a pain during wartime. I don't think we need to worry too much about corruption, either. All we need to do is keep Ghandi from winning some other way; we don't need to research or build an army to sustain an offensive.
2. I think this is worth a try.
3. Renew the ROP. I think we'll probably want to take out the Celts close to elevator time, after we've sucked them dry.
4. Like Jove, I think that not using nukes makes everyone else less likely to use them, so I'd prefer not to use them. The longer we delay nuclear war, the less tedious the last turns will be.
5. I don't think we have to worry about 100k, but we do need to watch the domination limit, both for us and for India. At the end of my turns we were about 75 tiles from domination, so we don't have to worry too much; the home continent and Spain aren't enough.
6. Interesting idea. We'd also have to make sure that there were no other wonders available, but I like the idea of subverting his warlike instincts.
7. I'm leaning toward wiping the Celts out completely, rather than keeping them around.
denyd
Emperor
#1 done so complete Satellites and start (maybe finish) Nuclear Power
#2 done
#3 Keep going on this
#4 MA in process in Stockholm, finish MA and start adding armies
#5 Keep going on this
New items
#6 Try move things around to speed up research if possible
#7 Renew ROP with Celts and continue to suck up all of their cash
#8 Let the Indians continue to expand northward, but keep the core secure
#9 Continue to move military to Celtic island
Anything else??
I'll probably be starting in about 7 hours
jeffelammar
Space for rent
This is the only thing I disagree with.denyd said:
And my only disagreement is in facts
I built the MA in my turns. In fact it should be about to pop out an army...
I just went back and noticed that I somehow managed to forget to mention it, but the Military Academy was built midway through my 10.
denyd
Emperor
Just a quick update: 5 done and I'd like to play another 5 tomorrow night
I made a quick switch in Stockholm and added the Pentagon and now our 3 Armies have 4 units in them (1 Inf & 2 MA)
We've researched Satellites (no matter what I tried I couldn't get it in 4) and now we are on Nuclear Power due in 5
Treasury is +500g and +gpt with 100% research
Best news is that India has sent an archer northward - I'll try to funnel him to Bodo - We should be able to replace the 36 beakers from Bodo by rearranging specialists
I made a quick switch in Stockholm and added the Pentagon and now our 3 Armies have 4 units in them (1 Inf & 2 MA)
We've researched Satellites (no matter what I tried I couldn't get it in 4) and now we are on Nuclear Power due in 5
Treasury is +500g and +gpt with 100% research
Best news is that India has sent an archer northward - I'll try to funnel him to Bodo - We should be able to replace the 36 beakers from Bodo by rearranging specialists
Why Bodo? Why not a totally corrupt town far north? Or an inside lake site to encourage building a navydenyd said:
?Are the Celts still staying away from our continent? We should keep enough workers there to isolate landing units if necessary...
#1
Don't think so, Monarchy should be even better on a smaller continent than ours. No need to switch.
#2
We will have trouble "providing" a save trade route for Osman to Gandhi in that time. Maybe some airports (and no fighters around) might do the job?
#3
I had objections against an early rop but I was proved wrong so I don't see any cons.
#4
I do not like nukes - I never use them (I never reach MT
). They cause too much polution (IIRC from Civ 2 
) and would cause annoying cleanup action. Only if we are really desperate 
#5 Someone posted the estimated 100k date being 1925 AD or alike - with Internet which we will lose soon. UN is switched off and domination should be impossible without Celts' Island.
#6 would be fun to see Osman building that in his 6 spt town... 167 turns?
#7 Why do you want to keep Brennusa alive? Prevent him from becoming a martyr?
denyd
Emperor
My intent was to exile Brennus to an island, then on regular basis pay him a 2-3K tribute that he can use to buy a tech from India who will hopefully use the cash to rush something besides military.
The main reason for Bodo is it really isn't a very productive city for us. 10+ turns for Modern Armor and not a lot of beakers. Both it's neighbors are both producing over 50 and it's only getting 32. I could probably keep that archer moving all the way to the corrupt northern cities, but I was worried it might try to attack something.
I've used nukes before. What basically happens is all of the military within in 1 tile of the target is either destroyed or red-lined. The city population is cut in half and each of the tiles next to ground zero are polluted. Considering our large idle work force, we could probably clean up a nuked city's locale in a turn or 2. The biggest hassle is that all of the non-aligned AI normally declare on you. If we had already aligned with the Ottoman there would be no impact. Just an FYI a nuke attack on an AI task force just sinks/wounds the ships without any pollution.
Just an FYI for the team, we are about 50 tiles from the domination limit and when I'm done tonight we'll be about 10 turns from 15-20 cities having a culture expansion.
The main reason for Bodo is it really isn't a very productive city for us. 10+ turns for Modern Armor and not a lot of beakers. Both it's neighbors are both producing over 50 and it's only getting 32. I could probably keep that archer moving all the way to the corrupt northern cities, but I was worried it might try to attack something.
I've used nukes before. What basically happens is all of the military within in 1 tile of the target is either destroyed or red-lined. The city population is cut in half and each of the tiles next to ground zero are polluted. Considering our large idle work force, we could probably clean up a nuked city's locale in a turn or 2. The biggest hassle is that all of the non-aligned AI normally declare on you. If we had already aligned with the Ottoman there would be no impact. Just an FYI a nuke attack on an AI task force just sinks/wounds the ships without any pollution.
Just an FYI for the team, we are about 50 tiles from the domination limit and when I'm done tonight we'll be about 10 turns from 15-20 cities having a culture expansion.
jeffelammar
Space for rent
This might work, but I think the better way is to use the reverse money trick from what we used in SGOTM 7. If we let Ghandi repeately take a city from us, he will get our money directly. If we give $$$ to Brennus, then we really have no control over what he does with it. We can just hope that he uses it to buy stuff from Ghandi.denyd said:
