SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

[Niklas]

Are you sure that we cannot improve the land of another civ, even if we are at war? Maybe resources is the problem (for RR)? I don't think I ever tried...

Remember in SGOTM 7 where we had Arabia on the island close to the southeast. Their borders expanded into the jungle area on our island. We had workers on every tile blocking hostile landings, including those jungle tiles in Arabian territory. I tried to clear those jungles, rather than letting the workers stand idle, but I wasn't allowed to. I remember this since I was very confused at the time, until I realized the source of the problem.

Though I agree that one occurence doesn't make a good empirical test, anyone feel free to try this in some other game.

 

[zyxy]

I did some tests. I can road, irrigate, mine and build fortress in the land of another civ - including replacing an earlier improvement - but not chop forest. This works both at war and when in RoP, so independent of diplo status it seems. Railroading is possible only when at peace (because of the need for resources probably). Didn't test jungle clearing, but I guess it works like chopping.

 

[Niklas]

Interesting, and good to know. But since we can't do railroads, my original assessment remains. The AIs really suck at improving their lands, in particular the more expensive terrains like hills and mountains that will be crucial for high production. So I still withhold that we should keep our old core until steam power.

I might play a few turns tonight, will finish tomorrow in any case.

 

[Niklas]

I would pull the road like this:

View attachment 104512

Makes for 24 worker turns, with the added bonus of connecting 'Food. It's possible to get 21 worker turns, but in the long run I'd rather have the town labelled New City 5 by the river than 1 tile E. EDIT: we want several towns to share the flood plains, to be able to spit out workers fast.

I'm thinking the chokepoint town would be a nice southern outpost against India. We'd be guaranteed at least one source of dyes, and India gets some too.

Tech deals
Looking in CA II, the difference in cost between IW and Masonry is 40 gp. Carthage has 23 gp currently, which could mean it's too expensive to buy at this point. Also India could be researching Masonry, making it less valuable for Carthage. Should I gift Hannibal some 50 gp to make the trade probable, or should we leave it and hope for the best? EDIT: In any case, it can't hurt to put some money in the hands of Gandhi, or?

In any case I will gift Writing to Ottomans.

 

[zyxy]

This dotmap is good too, probably better than mine. City 3 is a bit bad: no access to sea, not on river. City 3 and city 2 will not grow much until we get rid of the jungle, but my dotmap has cities like this too - their main role is to slash the jungle. City 7 is better placed than in my map . You have 4 food-rich cities ('food, nr 1, 5 and 6) and 2 production towns (4, 8), this is all good!

Trades: perhaps gift writing, wait a turn, if Ghandi doesn't bite then get Hannibal some gold. I would rather have Ghandi trade for writing which is a useful tech then for masonry which will not help him at all.

I say let's roll!

 

[ControlFreak]

Sorry for my absence. It looks like Niklas and zyxy are carrying our discussion...and they're doing a great job. I agree with your collective strategy of acquiring the northern territory and slowly retreating behind the dyes/choke area. (That was in my complicated, multi palace jump plan .)

Couple of administrative stuff:
The cities on the Indian Ocean need 7 units to garrison them to prevent flipping. Maybe your ideas of temples weren't such a bad idea if we're going to try to keep them until Steam.

The workers in the south should finish roading next turn. I planned to move them both to the BG and mine it together, then split them up to road the two grasslands. I didn't want to mine both of those thinking that Republic is just around the corner and we could use some irrigation near the mountains. There is a 2-worker stack near beard that could move and irrigate 2-3 already roaded plains tiles. We need more workers and might consider continuing the worker/settler 6 turn cycle.

I agree with the mass warrior upgrade idea. I had continued to build archers to fight the barbs but they should be on the decline now. We will also need some horses to patrol the North Coast of the Indian Ocean. I was going to road the horses but felt that Beard,Adelpha,Grad all needed irrigated plains to continue growing first. You are right about Invention being too long to wait to take over our continent so I'm fine with the swordsman rush.

Just an idea:
If the writing deal and the gold gifting deal doesn't work out, maybe we should declare on the Ottomans and bring Carthage in to the mix. That would get Carthage's GA going in despotism and keep both armys weak.

If we get lucky, either Ottomans or Carthage would embassy with India, and give them techs to join the war. (It's a long shot if no one has gold nor embassy.)

 

[ControlFreak]

Oh, BTW, its not too late to dredge up the idea of using the Great Library to "gift" Techs to India. I would probably rely on abandoning our FP plans in Beard and hope for a leader in the war's to build the FP up north. Otherwise our second core would be a long time coming.

 

[Niklas]

I started playing this morning actually, but I've only managed 6 turns so far. Quick update:

Barbs are indeed on the decline, but they now sport horsemen so they may continue to be a trouble for some time. I've also spotted a barbie galley, doesn't that mean that at least one civ knows MM? If so, the "others" are fast researchers.

I figured the south had a fair share of workers already, and more coming from Oy Deer, so I've moved some north, towards HotBeard and to the intense roading effort.

Regarding the tech deals, I screwed up a bit, but all's well now.
I forgot to do the gifting on the first turn, and when I gave money to Carthage they still wouldn't trade. Turns out India was indeed researching Masonry, and I think they bought it from Carthage for 10 gp in the end. Carthage still had all the money (I gave them 40), so I figured why not try TW as well. Worked a lot better, so India now has both Mas and TW, plus lots of cash.

The current situation is that Mongols have HBR, will trade it and 16 gp for CoL. No wonder, CoL is twice the price of HBR. Ottomans just managed Mathematics, would also trade it for CoL but has no money to throw in the deal. India is still down Writing on everyone.

Any ideas on what to do? It would be nice to know what India will come up with next, perhaps we should wait a while? On the other hand, the only thing they could possibly research that no one else has already is Poly, which would take them quite some time. More likely they are researching Writing or Maths, in which case a few trades could only help to speed them along I think. Any thoughts?

I will start playing again in maybe half an hour, so be quick.

 

[Niklas]

On the GLib idea, I still don't like it. If we would have been able to keep India isolated it would have been one thing, but I simply don't think we can keep Gandhi from Education long enough. And if we should fail, he'll have a long time to catch up.

I think continuing our current strategy is really the best thing to do. We can get India back in the tech race when we meet some off-shore civs. Gifting them contact with India will give India a near-monopoly on inter-continental contacts, which should count for quite a lot in both directions. We'll get Gandhi up to the top in no-time, no worries.

 

[ControlFreak]

Niklas@ Good thought on the contact to the other continent. That will be a good way to give an advantage to India.

You're right that the other continent must be ahead of us, but considering that we're the fastest researcher on this continent and we could have had Map Making by now, I don't think we're that far behind.

I think with barb techs (HBR and MapMaking) two civs must have the tech before the barbs learn it but I could be wrong. I know with the uprisings, it's the second civ in the new age that triggers it.

I would lean toward doing the Math for Code of Laws but don't really think it matters one way or the other. It seems like fast tech strategies are going to leave India behind at this point. Better to allow controlled tech speed so they can stay in touch at least.

 

[Niklas]

>>The Save!<<

Preflight (0):
Research to 100%, -3 gpt.
Missing 5 beakers from CoL in 4, shouldn't be a problem.

MMing looks great, thanks CF!

IBT:
Barbies mill around near 'grad.
'delphia archer -> warrior.
Oy deer! granary -> worker.

1475 BC (1):
Worker1 finishes road 2SE 'heim, moves northwards to join the roading.
BonusWorker1 finishes road to connect Nan, moves SE to the BG.

Archer from 'delphia moves to HotBeard, warrior03 stays behind as MP.
Archers near Grad move to cover barbies, wounded archer no longer threatened.

No idea what to do with scouts, move aimlessly while staying clear of barbs.
Try to find positions where I can cover large stretches of land.

MMing:
Heim gets 2 BGs from Delphia to get 9spt and settler in 1.
Delphia makes 4 spt this turn, can get back the BGs for 6 spt next turn and a warrior.
Grad can't make 6 spt for warrior in 1, so MM for commerce to get warrior in 2.
Oy Deer can work oysters instead of Deer for an extra commerce, +1 fpt, then +4 fpt next turn and still get forest on growth.
No use MMing HotBeard, the extra spt is wasted.
Same thing goes for Nan, and Food has only one thing to do really.

Now making 26 bpt, catching in 3 of the 5 needed.

IBT:
Barbie warrior shows up near scout north of dyes, inside Mongolia.
Barbie warrior attacks fortified vArcher on mountain, archer at 3/4.

Heim settler->settler.

1450 BC (2):
Two worker continue north, to build road and help Food.
One worker goes to NE Grad.
Worker SW Nan starts mine.

MMing:
Heim to +5 fpt, leaving a BG for Deplhia who gets 6spt and warrior in 1.
Grad keeps working lake, warrior in 1.
Deer works oyster and deer, +4 fpt and growth in 1. Will need an MP, borrow one from Heim for a turn or two.
Nan has grown, MM for production to get barracks in 1.

23 bpt means we need 25 next turn to get CoL.

Trading:
Gah, forgot last turn. Gift Writing to Osman, hoping he'll research something useful. India has nothing he wants, so no chance of trade there.
Gift 40 gp (one sword upgrade) to Carthage, hoping for a trade with India for IW. Mongols now have HBR, these guys are fast!

IBT:
Barbie warrior appears from the W land bridge.
Barbie warrior attacks fortified vArcher on mountain, archer at 1/4!

Cultural borders of Heim expand.

Delphia, Grad warrior->warrior.
Nan barracks->warrior.

1425 BC (3):
No trade between India and Carthage!

Need to stop now, gee this is slow going already with all this MMing...
RELOAD

Workers finished mine on incense hill. Move to help with roading, will lose one turn but that turn would have been lost anyway, since there was nothing useful in range for them to do anyway. Other workers start roading where they are.
Settler moves towards 2NE of Food.

Shuffle some MPs to have two in Delphia and Heim, one in smaller towns.
One scout finds a barbie camp, ends turn next to it.
Advance two archers towards the west and this camp, another moves towards Food to cover workers building the road. No barbies there yet, but you never know.

MMing:
Heim gets a BG for 7spt, Delphia gets an iPlain from HotB for 5 spt,
Grad still can't make 5spt net, so keep working the lake for commerce.
Deer at +4fpt, worker in 1.
HotB loses the 5th shield to waste, so work the lake instead. The extra commerce is also lost, but then Delphia can have the plains.
Nan and Food just keep working.

Need 25 bpt, which I get at 90% science.

IBT:
Barbie warrior attacks vArcher on mountain, archer unscathed.

We learn CoL, continue on Philo.

Oy Deer worker->worker.

Mongols are building the Oracle in Karakorum (pop 1).

1400 BC (4):
Philosophy is due in 7 turns, to get it in 6 we need an average of 27 bpt. Could be doable, no reason not to continue at 100% at least.

Workers keep working, won't mention them more.

Archers advance NW and W, the mountains make for nice vantage points.

MMing:
Heim and Delphia can continue like they are.
Grad will grow this turn, make sure there are no 2-food tiles free to make sure the new citizen yields 2 shields (or rather, one shield net).
Nothing to be done for remaining towns.

Trading:
Mongols are willing to give HBR and all their 16 gp for CoL. No wonder, CoL is twice as expensive. I don't see a reason to trade now, it can wait a few turns.
India has now learnt Masonry, on their own I believe. No wonder they wouldn't trade.

IBT:
Workers connect horses!
Barbie horses running around in the west and north. Better watch those scouts now, no running away any more.

Mongol scout has walked along the atoll, shows up from south of Oy Deer.

Delphia warrior->warrior.

1375 BC (5):
Workers spread out to road several tiles. Settler now in position to settle.

Archer kills barbie horse on mountain flawlessly. Scout spots a camp near Mongolia. Archer advances on the camp on the W land bridge.

MMing:
Heim gets to work an iGrass, lake is taken. Delphia continues as before at 5spt.
Grad has little possibilities for growth, works the incense for commerce and shields.
Oy Deer could get a worker out on this turn, an accumulating 3-turn factory.
Let Nan work the iron one turn for a fast warrior, rest stays as is.

Up to 28 bpt now, and Philo due in 5.

Trading:
I gift TW to Carthage hoping he will trade it to India for IW which he is still lacking. Gift TW to Osman as well, to make sure the trade doesn't go the wrong way.

IBT:
Indians want to talk, no way.
Barbies move, one scout may be dead next turn.

Heim settler->settler
Grad, Nan warrior->warrior
Deer worker->worker

Ottos are building Oracle. Now all three of them are, luckily not India (yet).

1350 BC (6):
Woohoo, India traded IW for TW, and got lots of cash in between (36)!

We are now up Writing on India, CoL as well on everyone else. Carthage has managed Maths, no trades until I know what India is up to next.

Ol' Smurkz River founded, uncovers a barbie camp in the E. Starts worker.

Archers advance on barbies. One camp should go next turn, another on the turn after. Scout tries to outrun horse by standing next to camp.

Have to save again, I'm really killing our reload count... RELOAD
Ok, fire up again.

MMing:
Heim to +5fpt, Delphia gives the plains to HotB since workers will finish the irrigation closer to Delphia on the IBT.
Grad can have a BG, making 6 spt on this turn.
Oy Deer could now run as an automated 3-turn factory, working the deer, the oysters and one BG. But that's at a surplus of 2 food, might as well work the forest and give that BG to Nan until the BG near Nan is ready.
Rest just keeps up the good work.

IBT:
Barbies move in non-threatening directions.

Delphia warrior->warrior.

1325 BC (7):
Disperse a Patzinal encampment for 25 gp, advance on two more.

Scout survived last turn and keeps running. Meets a Carthagian warrior going the other way...

MMing:
Heim to 7spt taking the BG from Grad, Delphia stays at 5spt.
Grad works the lake and a newly irrigated plains for 4spt, warrior in 1.
Deer keeps working the forest at +3fpt for one more turn.
HotB makes +3fpt, 8 food til growth. Let it work forest one turn now, I want it to be at +3fpt on the turn it grows, otherwise the governor won't choose a forest.

Trading:
No changes from before, keep CoL close.

IBT:
Two Mongolian settler-warrior pairs spotted. Watch out for those barbies!

Grad warrior->warrior.

1300 BC (8):
Disperse a barbie camp on the mountain atoll W of India for 25 gp, archer to 2/4 and ends on mountain near a barbie horse.
Disperse a second camp on the deer E of Food for another 25 gp, archer unhurt.
No more barbies close by, but I'll keep the vigilance.
Scout must flee into Mongolia.

MMing:
Let Heim work the lake this turn, can steal an extra BG next turn for 9spt.
Grad borrows the free BG, 5spt means warrior in 2.
Oy Deer steals the BG from Nan this turn to get to +4fpt, Nan at 2 spt will still make warrior in 1.
HotB back to +3fpt to grow in 2.

Philosophy needs 51 more beakers, making 29 this turn so no problem.

IBT:
Carthagian warrior kills barbie horse in the fog, promotes to 3/4.
The Khan wants us to move, sure I will.

Delphia, Nan warrior->warrior.
Deer worker->worker.

1275 BC (9):
Horse near wounded archer moved away, archer stays to heal.
Other archers take up vantage points.

Move the new worker from Deer NW so that we can finally see the size of Delhi, currently 5.

MMing:
Heim at 9 spt, settler in 1.
Delphia at 4spt but growing next turn, will get a BG since Heim will shrink.
Grad works the incense for +1fpt one turn, warrior in 1.
Deer restarts cycle with working the forest. We should get someone to road that forest, or maybe chop it for a possible BG.
HotB will grow on the IBT, is at +3fpt so will get a forest.
Nan working two BGs for 4 spt.
Food will grow on the IBT and then produce a worker. First flood plains will be irrigated next turn too.

Trading:
Carthage must have dispersed a camp, they're up 25 gp from last turn (now 42). Otherwise no changes.

Research:
Tech slider at 70% gives us 22 beakers, just what we need for Philo.

IBT:
Carthagian warrior kills another barbie horse.
Mongolian settlers on the move.

We learn Philosophy, going for Republic.

Heim settler->settler
Grad warrior->warrior
Food worker->worker

1250 BC (10):
Olive Or Die founded at site 4 near the olives.

Do some MMing, but leave most units for next player.

Trading:
Ottos will not give Maths for Philo, no surprise there.
Mongols will give HBR and 4 gp for Philo.

Research:
We can get Republic in 25 turns at current 100% research, -7gpt. It would be interesting to see which would pay off most in 40 turns, going at full speed and thus getting into Republic faster, or doing the min run. Probably the latter since this is unmodded Republic, no free upkeep.
Speaking of upkeep, we are now at 33 units with free support for 36. Soon we'll start paying for all those warriors. How many before we march?

 

[Niklas]

Roster:

• WarDance - UP!
• Methos - On Deck!
• CommandoBob
• zyxy
• ControlFreak
• Niklas - Just played

 

[zyxy]

Sorry for my absence. It looks like Niklas and zyxy are carrying our discussion...and they're doing a great job.

Thanks!

Though I would really like to hear the opinions of our other teammembers as well. Methos, Wardance, CommanderBob, where are you? Not playing civ4 I hope?

--------------

Nice turns Niklas, as always . Two more cities (with nice names too), and a settler ready to go.

Some quick comments:
- That Mongols are researching fast just proves that this is a good core region .
- India is really falling behind. The contact trading trick may work well. If all else fails, the GLib trick would bring them back in the race.
- Delhi only at size 5? Have they been building settlers?
- Trading for Maths and HBR sounds good. Mongols will also do HBR for Philo, but maybe Otto's will not do Maths for Philo + HBR after that.
- I think we should start upgrade in about 5 turns from now, for attack in 15-20 or so. We have 11 vet warriors now, with another 7 or so to come before the iron comes online. Should be (more than) enough I think. Upgrade cost for 18 warriors = 18 * 40 = 720 gold, it will take some 20 turns to generate that much.
- The worker near Nan can road the iron mountain, the other one can help for iron online in 5 turns. We could use some more workers up north to road the warpath.
- next three settlers can go to the warpath and to the floodplain region I think. After that to Mongol lands probably. We also need a cage for Mongols.
- I vote for sci 10%. We need upgrade money. No need to rush to republic, that government needs a small military, preferably markets, and maybe two cores to be profitable.
- Let's hope that Mongol settler clears some jungle .
- I assume scout resource denial is not allowed, but Mongols haven't hooked up iron or horses yet . We can keep scouts for now, they may prove useful scouting other continents, as fogbusters, or as pillagers.

 

[CommandoBob]

Though I would really like to hear the opinions of our other teammembers as well. Methos, Wardance, CommanderBob, where are you? Not playing civ4 I hope?

With this and two and half other SG's on Civ III and work and real life (wife, mother-in-law and church and helping to plan a high school reunion), who has time for Civ4? (Plus, it won't run on my machine and I am sure my wife is glad for that!)

Seriously, I have been keeping up, but the level of planning shown here is so far beyond what I am used to doing that I am just staying out of the way. I can barely plan five turns ahead, but here we are planning fifty! And a palace jump AND giving good cities away.
(On my own, it would have taken me two weeks to even consider giving good core cities to Gandhi, much less building up a core for the skinny little man in gray to claim as his very own.)

Plus, the level of explantion has been clear enough to me to understand what is going on. The finer points of discussion sometimes elude me, but the overall picture is clear and clearly defined. Now some of the things discussed, like palace jumping, and kicking India over into the New World, are new and scary because I have not done them before. So I listen as these ideas are discussed and improved. And learn.

So, I am here. I am just being quiet.

 

[Methos]

Though I would really like to hear the opinions of our other teammembers as well. Methos, Wardance, CommanderBob, where are you? Not playing civ4 I hope?

Er, uh, don't know what you're talking about!?!

 

[Niklas]

Sorry for being absent, I'm headed into what is hopefully the last stretch of round-the-clock work. I have a lecture on thursday, then the two following weeks I will only have lectures on Thursdays (not Mondays too) which means I'll have twice the time to prepare.

I second zyxy's notion, we want to keep the discussion going and I'd like to see everyone involved. Even if you think you're not good enough, a simple question could set off a chain of thought in a direction not previously explored. The more voices in the debate, the more options we'll have time to cover. Besides, I don't believe that you're not good enough, I've seen all of you play.

I can barely plan five turns ahead, but here we are planning fifty!

Somehow I stuck on this statement. IMO this is really the core of what it means to be a good strategy player - having a strategy!

Planning only for the near future means you go with the flow, change direction with changing fortunes, no long term strategy. You build what is available without thinking what the world will be like when it's done, or if it will make a difference. When I first came to CFC I played like this, planned a few turns ahead only. At that time I could barely beat monarch. Hey, the AI can plan a few turns ahead, so it only makes sense to play even games at the difficulty level where there are no benefits either way.

If there's one thing that will improve your level of play in strategy games, it's learning to have a strategy. And it's not that hard to learn either, it's just a matter of shifting focus.

 

[CommandoBob]

PTW and Vanilla teams are not permitted to leader rush Great Wonders before 1000 BC in this game

Lest we forget.

 

[Niklas]

Oh, and if you don't keep posting, soon the Xteam will catch up in posts. Not in posts per turn surely, but still... And off course I don't mean to post for the sake of posting, I mean joining the discussion. No spamming you hear! now why didn't I put this in the last post?

 

[CommandoBob]

In rereading this thread I noticed in the early posts a fair bit of discussion on Wonders. This far into the game, what are our plans for Wonders? Forbidden Palace, yes, but what of the science doubling and production enhancing ones?

 

[WarDance]

I'm here and I've "got it"!

Sorry I haven't posted much this week. I've been real busy with family stuff of late, learning sign language, and trying to figure out how to pay for the hearing aids my 2 year old needs. Teammates from SGOTM8 might remember me discovering severe hearing loss in my little one and we've had some hospital tests done and are moving ahead. She now signs eat, drink, hat, shoes, socks, light, more, please, bath... she picks up on it really quick! Hopefully the hearing aids will be as helpful as the audiologists think they'll be.