SGOTM4 - Team Grayarea

Hi.
550ad (0)
560ad (1) - trade indian worker +11g for our spices and ivory
570ad (2) -
580ad (3) - Hippo built harbor - colosseum
By indian worker for 25g
590ad (4) - Carthage colosseum - curthouse
IBT - Greece and Ottomans peace treaty
Theology - Feudalism 12turns +3g (5.3.2)
Persians are building Sun Tsu
600ad (5) - Sistine in 14 turns
trade persian furs for ivory
micromanage - +11 per turn
610ad (6) - Theveste marketplace - courthouse
IBT Persia and India - peace treaty.
620ad (7) - Rome built cathedral - palace (prebuild for Sun Tsu)
IBT - Persia demand literature. I gave it for not begin a war.
630ad (8) - Carthage curthouse - swordsman
640ad (9) -
650ad (10) - Hippo colosseum - galley
 
Hi, I can't have time right now to see the save, but I wanted to say that from what I remember, Rome has enough food(wheat + cow), so we could mine them if the city reached pop12, so we get more shields for our pre-built.

Back on Tuesday.
 
0- 650 AD
The good thing about 5CC is that the turns are shorter.

1-660 AD
Gave codes of Laws to Keltoi for free. Made them turn all polite.
Not sure why we are researching Feudalism on +2 when TGL is still working.
Persia already has Feudalism. Palace builds in 11 turns so safe to assume we will have it by then. Have put slider to 0.

2-670 AD
No surprise TGL gave us Feudalism so research goes to Printing Press. A citizen in Carthage is made a scientist for this. This is a tech the AI will not immediately research at least not before Education.
Carthage builds worker- onto P. Mercenary
Rome switches to Sun Tzu’s finishing in 24 turns.
Hippo- galley onto Pmerc.

Give Indians Monarchy for free. They're not doing too good. It benefits us if the balance of power is equal.
Greece has Engineering.

3- 680 AD

Palace expansion. WLTQ day in Carthage. That's good.
Sun Tzu- 22 turns.
Feudalism to Germs- 20 g. Sistine in 6 turns.

4- 690 AD not much. Galley lost in treach. waters.

5- 700 AD
WLTQ ends in Carth.
Hippo goes onto a 17 turn palace prebuild. It can go for LW with invention. Greece may research this line. If not it will have to build University instead.
Persia has chivalry.
Why is everyone so poor?

6- 710 AD

Wool for horses with Persians for another 20 turns. We should build horses.
Sun Tzu’s in 18 turns.

7- 720 AD

It's odd but I think my kindness to India (normally peace loving) has made them think we are soft. Out of the blue they have declared war on us! It was funny to watch a lone warrior attack Rome only to be cut down by the elite hoplite there. Good really because it sparked WLTQD's in all 3 northern cities. Also we can remove Kolhapur from our continent. But the AI doesn’t look fondly on exterminating civ's- good job they declared on us.


8- 730 AD

The WLTQ has lowered corruption in Utica. Sistine next turn. Theveste finishes Cathedral onto Col.
Tech slider move up +2. Printing Press

9- 740 AD

Utica finishes Sistine onto Harbour. Hmm pop up said Geeks are building Sun Tzu’s. Does this mean they're using the shields from missing Sistine? If so they could beat us to it. Carthage builds horseman.

1o- 750 AD final turn.

The Greeks want gold from us. Normally I'd say ok have it but our army is strong so I say NO! And they back off.
All of our cities are experiencing WLTQD's as Sistine kicks in. Theveste is looking good & now has the highest city shield output with 26 pt.

So I have wiped the Indians out (no losses). Good they deserved it! They must have wanted to be attacked to be put out of their misery. I feel like a euthanasianist.
My final act is to abandon- Kholhapur.

That's my turn finished.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0750_01.SAV


Suggestions/Conclusions

Persia has Chiv, Greece Engineering, why don't they swap so we can have both?
We will eventually as no civ has theology yet and won't have edu for awhile.
Some knights could be good.

My biggest concern is the wonder race. If Greece is researching invention and if we beat them to Sun Tzu’s they will surely beat us to Leonardo's. We might only have both if we finish Sun Tzu’s (14 turns) before they research invention.

Tech slider? Where to put it? Now on +2 for Printing Press (17 turns) but could be lowered later depending how fast other civs are researching.

Why did I Prebuild palace in Hippo? I am sure it's going to be wasted.

NB. Workers can block tiles too. We could still do with some more before steam and there is always work to be done preparing for Hospitals. Cities can build workers in between troops/buildings.


.
 
Ok, I just came back. I'll see the save later on.

btw: I'm still tired from the trip and I misclicked in another thread, but as soon as I saw another name(Alamo) above an avatar, I immediately closed it, so I saw nothing.
 
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0850_01.SAV

Pre-turn: I raise the science to 30%, PP in 12 at -3gpt.

IBT
A Roman settler/spear is coming out of Ravenna.

760AD (1)
Re-position troops.

770AD (2)
Greece knows Printing Press now.

780AD (3)
Nothing.

790AD (4)
I give Theology to the Ottomans for 91g +9gpt, since they'll soon know it(Greece, Babylon and Persian already have it).

800AD (5)
Nothing new.

IBT
Our Furs deal with Persia ends: I give them Ivory for Furs.

810AD (6)
The Roman settler/spear pair, decides to return home, as it can't settle anywhere :lol:

820AD (7)
I "extend" the palace pre-built in Hippo to 12 turns, and I hope that we can make it and build Leo's there. Anyway, the shields can be "re-arranged". Of course, we'd have to follow the tech path to Invention at full speed.

830AD (8)
Nothing.

840AD (9)
PP next turn. Everyone is progressing slowly and that suits us for the Wonder Race(even if we don't win Culturally, it's good to keep the Wonders for ourselves).

IBT
The Germans begin Sun Tzu's.
We lost one galley on the ocean.

850AD (10)
Nothing new.

Summary

1) We can research Engineering in 4 turns at -118gpt(that's where the slider is, but you can change it) and after that go full speed for Invention in less than 7 turns(that's when our palace pre-built in Hippo will end by then: currently at 11 turns, after some more "extending"). We could also starve Hippo for 1-2 turns if needed(make taxmen), so we get Invention first.

I'd say to go full speed to the bottom of the tree, until the GL is made obsolete. When Education comes in, I'd immediately start a palace pre-built for Bach's Cathedral, since it requires a lot of shields, and I'd of course go for Music Theory full speed, switch the palace pre-built to Bach's, then start another palace pre-built elsewhere and full speed for Astronomy(Copernicus Observatory).

Then I'd aim for Economics(Smith's) with a palace pre-built and maybe research/buy Navigation for Magellan's.
Then we need ToG for Newton's University and if possible, build it in the same city that we'd have Copernicus(if the city it's not building something else by then).

Anyway, let's hope that Greece won't learn Invention sooner than 4 turns, since we need 4 turns for Sun Tzu's, and it won't cascade Thermopylae's Sun Tzu's to Leo's.

Since the tech pace is not especially quick, I'd say that we can research at full speed, so we have the time to build our Wonders, without the fear that someone else will claim them.

2) I'd say to have
a) 1 city to built Hoplites until we have 3 Hoplites in all of our cities,
b) 1 city to build catapults to have an equal number as Hoplites in the cities and keep producing them to bombard possible enemies if needed, so we take them out with horses and without any loses,
c) 1 city to built horses.

Of course, Leo's will help big time if we get it, since the upgrades for our Hoplites/horses/catapults will be very expensive. If we're lucky and get Leo's we'll save money for science.

3) I have troops and workers fortified in such way, that no one can settle more cities on our island, so be careful not to take them from where they're.

4) We can begin to road all our island now, and I already begun doing it. Steam Power is WAY far, at the moment, so we can concentrate on roading.
We may need to "extend" a palace pre-built/Wonder, so I'd leave those tiles in Utica only with roads. Sanitation is still far to come, and we can wait.

5) When we have the troops we need, I'd stop producing anymore, so we invest more money on science.

EDIT: Better to send horses down to Rome (I have some fortified in Carthage and Utica), in case the Persian city in our island culture-flips to us, so we can occupy those tiles.

Of course, it's a question of give the city back to the Persians(after we move the regular unit from there) so we won't get possibly attacked or risk it and see what happens?
 
Grayarea, if you need some time to play, no problem from me: just say so.
 
Hi everyone.
To Grayarea: Where are you? Will you pick the game or skip this turn?

OK. I'l wait until evening. If nothing hapened, I'll got the game. And Grayarea could play after me.
 
OK. Grayarea are skipped. I piked the game.
 
850(0) Change to build in Utica PercianMercenary instead of Hoplite.
IBT: Babylon demand contact with Persia, take empty.

860(1) Utica build PercianMercenary, start another. Theveste build Catapult, start another.

870(2) Carthage built Horseman, start another. Theveste build Catapult, start another.

880(3) Utica build PercianMercenary, start another. Theveste build Catapult, start another.
IBT: Keltoi declared a war on the Vikings.

890(4) Researched Engineering, start Invention at 90% (6 turns). Greek are building Leonardo's Workshop. Trade Persian Education for our Engeneering and 395g. Traded Greece Invention for our Education and 104g. Carthage built Horseman, start University. Utica changed production to University. Rome built Sun Tzu's Art of War, start University. Theveste build Catapult, start University. Changed research to Astronomy at 30% (25 turns, +18g).
IBT: I have lost a Galley in the ocean, sorry guys.

900(5) -
IBT: Lost Horses. Decided not to continue deal, as we are currently are building Universities.

910(6) Persian landed Immortal near Hippo.
IBT: Lost Furs. Persian declared us a war. Persian Immortal killed our Veteran Hoplite in Hippo, itself no damage. :(

920(7) Killed Persian Immortal with our Mercenary. No upgrade. Wiped out Persian city Bactra (2 Spearmans, 1 Galley), lost one our Horseman. No upgrade.

930(8) -

940(9) Changed research rate to 40% (-2g, 17 turns).

950(10) -

Utica should begin Palce prebuild for next high culture wonder (Copernicus's Observatory) as soon as it finished University. We should build all middle-age wonders with high culture in Utica in order to 20k victory. It's not very easy but likely possible. They are: Shaks.Theatre, Mick.Chapell, Cop.Observatory, New.Colledge.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0950_01.SAV
 
1) We can now trade contacts, but I'd suggest to NOT trade contacts as that would speed the tech research from the other civs or they'd trade techs.
Another reason is that Persia or another civ could gift a tech for a MA against us, and we want good relationships with the other civs, if possible.

2) I see that Thermopylae is building Leo's and from what I remember, it was the city which was building SunTsu's(?). If there was a cascade, I doubt that we can beat them to Leo's, but now it's late to step back. If we don't get Leo's in Hippo, switch it to university.

3) Rome should built colosseum and then courthouse, after the university.

4) Keep building Persian Mercenaries along with some more catapults to bombard Persian units when they land, and then take them out easily. Don't forget that Persia might land some knights now, so we need more catapults in each city.

When we make peace(try it at every turn), trade again for furs and horses.

5) Make sure that the pre-built in Utica for Copernicus won't be made sooner than we research/buy Astronomy: if we need to, make some citizens who work high-shield tiles to work coastal or unmined grassland as was the case with Hippo.

6) I'd go for Music Theory after Astronomy and make a pre-built around 8 turns(if the palace needs 9 turns to be completed for example) before we learn it: unfortunately, with only 5 cities, our palace pre-built doesn't need many shields.

btw: send some occupation units in the tiles that can be settled when we can(the have a warrior in Utica that could leave because Utica has other units).
 
950ad (0)
960ad (1) - zzz
970ad (2) Utica built Univer - palace(13 turns) Astronomy in 12 turns
980ad (3) Rome built Univer - colosseum
Theveste built Unkiver - Spartan hoplite
Persian are building Copernicus's Observatory
Astronomy in 10 turns -7gpt
990ad (4) Carthage built univer - hoplite
Astronomy in 8 turns -16gpt
1000ad (5) persian landed on the roman territory.
Theveste hoplite - catapult (1per turn)
Persian gave us 25g for peace
Persian know Chivalry and Astronomy. Trade wool and ivory for furs and horses
1010ad (6) Viking and Keltoi peace treaty.
Persian daclared war on Romans. And have destroyed them.
1020ad (7) zzz
1030ad (8) zzz
1040ad (9) Rome colosseum - courthouse
Ottomans and Persian are building Workshop
1050ad (10) -


Persian galleys moves east. Now all nations agree to pay us good money for the contacts. I think it's a good time to trade it and hurry our scince.
 
I'm not sure if we should trade contacts, as we're "safe" that until Magnetism no one can have contact with the Persians.

The Persians would accept to trade Astronomy + 19g(all their gold) for Printing Press: this way we could start researching Music Theory and begin a palace-prebuild in Rome for Bach's, after the courthouse.

The Persians could also trade Chivalry for PP, but we're going for the Wonders and probably is better to trade for Astronomy.

Next turn we complete Leo's in Hippo, and I hope nothing "bad" happens in the "IBT".

btw: Rome could have 23spt instead of 22, if we work a mined grassland instead of irrigated grassland: of course, we should be careful not to complete the palace pre-built before we learn Music Theory. Hippo could also produce 22spt.

Matternich, what are you saying for our situation: I haven't heard of you.

All the members could post their ideas.
After MT we should go for Economics, and probably trade for missing techs.
 
1 KA - Get ready
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin
4 Alex top - Just played
5 Matternich - Playing next

Sorry guys was busy last week.
 
I think that we should try to build all new wonders in Utica. For this we need to slow down contacts as much as we can.
Also I think it's safe to trade PrintingPress, as we could research MusicTheory and, if we miss Copernicus, change prebuild to Mik.Chapells.
 
0- 1050 AD

We have far too much military for the kind of attacks any enemy could possibly make at this level. It is costing us gold. Touch of paranoia perhaps. I am not going to disband but suggest team discuss possibilty of streamlining military down to essential defence + strategic blocking. Why catapults??

The more civs research faster the quicker a diplomatic/space victory can be achieved. The quicker the finish the higher the score.

Cash is good- it can buy tech/lux.
Lux is good it makes citizens happy. Score is directly related to citizens happiness over a game. Also WE LOVE THE QUEEN DAY's reduce corruption.

Where are all our workers? Come steam we need plenty to lay track in as few turns as possible. WORKERS ARE GOOD.


1- 1060 A.D.
Hippo builds LW's onto Uni.

Trade PP & contact with Keltoi with Persia for Chiv, Astron & 25 g.
Astronomy to Ottomans for 10gpt & 110 g.
Invention to Bab for 27 g.
Greece will not trade GUNPOWDER

Utica swithces to Cop.Ob Theveste onto palace prebuild.
Carthage onto worker.

Lux +1
Tech 0


2- 1070 AD

Rome and Utica would benefit from a temporary forest or two (2 shields on forest tiles). Workers go to plant them.
Research is so slow best to trade until gold stocks are replenished.
Carthage builds worker onto wealth.

3- 1080 AD
Rome finishes courthouse- onto worker.

4- 1090 AD
Rome builds worker onto worker.

5- 1100 AD
Rome build worker onto wealth.

6- 1110 AD
Not much
7- 1120 AD
Move tech slider. Music Theory in 11

8- 1130 AD
Theology to Vikings for 4 gpt & 27 g.
9- 1140 AD
Utica build Copernicus's Observatory.
Trade Astron + 147 g. for Banking from Bab's
Banking to Ottomans for Gunpowder & 12 g. (we have 1 saltpeter)
Carthage & Rome start bank.

10- 1150 AD
Greece demands banking. I say no! They back down (again).
Utica finishes Worker onto bank.
Lux down 1 to 0
Music theory in 7 turns.

Another turn bites the dust :)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1150_01.SAV


Conclusions/Suggestions

Disbanding will increase revenue.
WLTQD's should end now lux is back on 0. Navigation will help to trade for lux resource and WLTQD's will return without need for lux slider to be raise above 0.
Palace prebuild 1 turn after Music theory.
5 Banks = Stock markets = Wall street. A good surplus gold is needed to gain that 50 gpt interest.
For a cultural victory Mil Acad would be good but for that a war is needed to create GL & army. This wouldn't help diplomatic vic.
 
@Matternich:

> We have far too much military for the kind of attacks any enemy could possibly
> make at this level. It is costing us gold. Touch of paranoia perhaps. Why catapults??

When AI discovers ironclads/fregats, they usually declare a war and pillage terrain improvements from ships without landing. Nothing is better against ships then artillery. Of course, we can build it later, but at that time we will have much more choises what to build. So, it is better to build catapults now (while we have nothing to build better) and just upgrade them later.

And question: How Mil.Acad. will help us in Culture victory??? By it's culture? Then HeroicEpic is better, IMHO.
EDIT: MilAcad. require 3 armies, every army require 4 cities = total 12 cities. Of cource we can make city's trick again, but I think it does not cost all these efforts.
 
@Sir_Ortin. Yes we should build troops closer to the time we need them as every turn they cost gold. We are short of gold for research at the moment. As regards pillaging ironclads I think you are being a touch paranoid. A couple of ironclads of our own would see them off in no time. We are not playing on Deity after all.

I agree Heroic Epic would be good too. But both are not mutually exclusive and both require victorous army/armies.

Mil academy & H.epic are only worth acquiring if we are going for a cultural victory in which case then yes it probably is worth the effort.
BTW you dont need 3 armies 1 will do for mil acad.
.
 
Yes, after the Army has attacked and won, you can build the HE and the MA: in our case we could only have 1 Army(unless we formed 3 more cities for a second Army and disbanded them).

Matternich: I agree that we're paying too much support-gold for our units, but we can't do otherwise, as other civs would settle in our island. Banks, WS, ect.. will help us economically.

Smith's is also a very good Wonder, even for 5 cities.

Rome and Theveste would expand soon, so we could use our units elsewhere.

Catapults are essential in all kind of maps, especially since we're on an island: in our case, I'd prefer us to have MANY catapults and a few offensive/defensive units, so when the enemy's units were red-lined we could very easily finish them of without any loses.

We only have 5 cities, and we can't afford losing one and begin another one from scratch.

Don't forget that the AI won't have forever musketmen, but (mech)Infantry, later on, and we'd need a bunch of offensive units to only take out 4 Infantry(let alone if they were 8 from a transport and in hills/mountains).

btw: Good trading Matternich :goodjob:

More later.

EDIT: I don't understand the need to build fortresses if we don't have a unit there fortified: if the terrain were bombed that would destroy the road anyway, unless a unit were fortified to protect the improvements by taking the damage itself.

We also have a worker cutting a forest way outside the borders(maybe for faster railroading?) and another one irrigating a tile outside the radius of Carthage(there is water in the nearby tiles if we want to "drag" it).
 
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