SGOTM4 - Team Grayarea

@Matternich: I was thinking to have our 3 core cities building Wonders - pre-builds and the new city to be able to build a few naval units for defence only; the coastal tiles/lake tiles won't be worked any time soon without a hospital, as there is plenty of excellent land to be worked first.

@Alex Top: Ceasar will give ALL his techs/gold right now - DON'T ask him "what do you need for peace treaty" as the player is the one who makes the rules right now. If you DEMAND all the techs/gold, you can have it.
Whatever your strategy is, just haggle every time with the AI.
 
150 BC (0) Ok.
IBT
Roman archers move to Leptis
Currency - Code of Low
Theveste - settler

130 BC (1)
Attack Rome : Lose 1 archer 2 hoplite, kill 1 Legionary 3 spearman.
Attack Neapolis: lose 2 veteran hoplite. Elite hoplite and warrior distroyed Neapolis, but no GL.
Attack Cumae: Lose 1 veteran hoplite.
Peace treaty for all technologies, all gold Pompeii and Hispalis. Change horseback for currency. There is no horses on our continent. Rome build FP.
Sell all granaries, all in Theveste.
Abandon Hispalis, Cumae, Pompeii, Theveste.
Reserch Republic 15 turns -28g/turn (0.8.2)
IBT
Roman army move south.

110bc (2)
I blocked Roman Army.

IBT
Hippo: GLight - Aqueduct.
Babyonian Nineveh has completed Great Wall.

90bc (3)

70 (4)
Contact India galley (west from us). He has no money. Don't now literature, currency, construction.

ibt
Leptis built settler - settler.

50bc (5)
Contact persian Psargadae (west). Can pay 190g for our leteracy or currency.
Establish embussy Persia: Palace, Colosseum. 7 citizens product 13 per turn. Finishing barracks. Has iron, horses and 2 luxures. Inside 2 workers, 2 settlers, 1 horse, 3 spearman.
Establish embussy India: Palace, barracks, granary, temple. 8 citizens pruduce 12 per turn.Inside catapult, 4 spearman, warrior. Building spearman. Has 1 horse and 1 luxury.

IBT.
Sorry. I lose 1 galley in ocean.

30BC (6)
Trade our wool for furs and 51g with persia.
Declare war on Rome. Tried to Kill army near Rome. No lose. No GL.
Now we have Iron.

10bc (7)
IBT
Persian could give us horses and 20g for literature.
Army destroyed.
Utica colosseum - marketplace.

10AD (8)
Move our forces to Veii.

Contuct Germany. Embussy. Condition like India.
Contuct Vikings.Embussy. Nothing interesting.
Can trade with both polytheism + gold for currency.

IBT
Great library give us polytheism.
Carthage colosseum - marketplace.

30ad (9)
Join settler to Rome

50ad (10)
Lose 1 archer. Kills 2 spearmens.


Settler move with our army to build a city. Befor he make it theveste must hurry produce last settler.
Worker at north move to the ivory (need for trade).
I think we need more workers. Carthage can make it after 5 turns.
Good luck.
 
0- 50 AD
Is Hammurabi playing 5CC as well? Babylon only has 5 cities.

1- 70 AD
As luck would have it I take on a Roman archer and spawn a GL- 'HAMILCAR'.
It’s going to hurry FP.
Science slider is way too high. Keep it on 0 for now.
Once we shift governments we can go for tech or wait until Education when Glib expires.

TRADE

India- lit. for 40 g.
Persia- Poly for 151 g. & horses
Germany- Curr. for 126 g.

2- 90 AD
FPalace is now in Rome- onto temple. Hippo finishes aqua. onto library.
Hello it's the Ottomans. Glib gives Monotheism
Veii is razed. Going to leave the other Roman city to see if another GLeader is made.
We could build an army with it.

Another city can be settled but Leptis is still producing workers so, I am going to wait.

3- 110 AD
Picking off loose archers with ELITES. Heading to Ravenna.

4- 130 AD - not much.

5- 150 AD - more of the same. Another ivory colony.

6- 170 AD
Carthage finishes marketplace- onto worker.

7- 190 AD
Rome expands. Add settler to Rome.
Carthage finishes worker onto another worker. Barbarians still spawning. 25 g. when a hop gets there.

8- 210 AD
India has landed a settler on our continent. It will depend where it goes but if it disturbs any of our city placements it will have to be war.
Carthage onto Cathedral.
Ha ha Rome is still building settlers. That’ll be 2 free workers.

9- 230 AD
Abandon Leptis and settle a newly- possibly controversially- positioned Theveste. Hope I made the right decision. It has a little more plains than I would like but has 2 wool tiles both on hills. The good thing is it has a 3 food game tile, is on the coast and has no cross over tiles. It looks like it could be a great city once it has expanded. But that could take awhile :( Don't be deceived by plains, with the right amount of food on other tiles a plain can be pushed to 3 shields with a railroad. Trade Republic from India and begin Revolution. I hope it's good gov choice
Trying to block the Indian Settler.

10- 250 AD last turn.
We are now a Republic. Tech is at +1 researching Theology to gain a head start on Sistine Chapel. Even with Glib its good if we stay ahead of tech as later it could become more difficult with only 5 cities.
Finally kill that spearman and settler. Rome has a few complainers, mainly about 'cruel oppression' 54% from hurrying settlers in despotism. Temple is hurried in Rome.


http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0250_01.SAV

Conclusions/Suggestions

Deliberately I have left the Roman city of Ravenna still standing. It hasn’t helped gain another GL. Should we put Rome of her misery once and for all?

As predicted Rome is a great city. It’s going to be at 12 pop in no time and building quickly.

Hippo could prebuild a palace in preparation for GW's i.e. Hanging Gardens, Sistine chap.

It going to be impossible to stop settlers landing on our continent but as long as they don't cut into city tiles or threaten to steal lux/resources then best to leave them depending on the situation. If we are going to war however it’s best to do it early so by the time the UN is up we are friends of the world.

Could be good to hurry temple in Theveste as it needs to expand as quickly as possible to catch up.

Selling tech that will speed the AI's chance of researching Education could reduce the usefulness of Glib.

Cities that are at 12 and have full food boxes can produce 2 workers in between buildings. Workers are always needed.


All done.
 
This is my "got it".

There are so many things that I'd like us to do, that I don't know from which one to start, so, I'll point only a few as there're different priorities in each situation of the game or what the AI does:

1) Our reputation may be ruined a bit, since we contacted the AI's while we broke our peace treaty with Rome, but this was something that was unavoidable since we had decided to do it.

2) We don't have horses from Persia anymore: Persia and India are at war with each other, so maybe 1 horse resourse got pillaged, but due to stupid programming, the rep hit hits us and not the AI.

3) We should not make any more wars for some time/ever with other AI's for many reasons; just remember that it's easier for us to make war with AI cities on our island when we need it, since we'd be fighting in our home ground.

4) I didn't knew that we're Religious(?): the anarchy lasted 1 turn, reading the log. I'd go for Monarchy once is known and we can trade for it cheaper, or wait to learn it from the GL.
We can't support the many troops we need to occupy tiles and we really need to do it, or we can't have a strong army in Republic, but it's better than Despotism for the time being.
We could pay for techs once the GL is obsolete.
Later on, I'd go for Democracy: we could support our army and with banks we could have a really strong army, so we could prevent attacks or make quick wars if needed.

5) I'd shut down the science as there's no point to pay 10% for it: just make a scientist in Rome as it can handle it with 1 cow and 1 wheat.

6) Right now, there's a chance to lose our valuable luxuries to other settling AI cities, so that's our TOP priority: occupy/block the tiles near luxuries.

7) We don't need to have so many workers in our new cities; Utica works a tile not developed and grows in 6(1 more tile to develop), Hippo will need to build a cathedral and we should cut the 3 forests to help it, Carthage has too many food when it could work the mined grass to finish the cathedral in 8 turns and later on to work the mountain for even more shields.

Roman workers should work together and not alone, so they finish their job a lot sooner and they're more than enough to improve Rome and Theveste.

What I want to say is that it's pointless to work tiles that there're not needed for the moment.
We can built workers to join them to our new cities, but right now we need to secure our luxuries and help our core cities, especially Hippo by improving it's land and join some workers in the city(when they've done their job).

8) The cathedral in Carthage can wait for the moment; we need "occupying" units from the city, while Utica should build the cathedral and a courthouse and Hippo should build courthouse/cathedral, before they start on pre-builds.

9) With good timed pre-builds, we can built almost ALL the Great Wonders in this era, maybe all of them if we play it smart.

10) We can finish our war with Rome right now: maybe later on we can make 1 more "trick" war mainly aiming for GL's(not attacking the city itself), but right now the Roman city is good for us because:
a) the other AI's won't settle near the area with the wools and Ravenna can't "steel" our wools even with border expansion
b) we need our troops elsewhere to protect/occupy tiles near our other luxuries.
 
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0350_01.SAV

Pre-tun:
Establish an embassy with Ottomans. Sogut builds swordsman, 6spt, it has 3 luxuries(dyes, insense, silks).
Improvements: barracks, temple, cathedral and colosseum.
Resourses: 2 Horses and 2 Iron.
The Ottomans are in Despotism.

Make peace treaty with Rome.

IBT
A Persian warrior/settler pair lands near the place of where Leptis was(I hope they're not going for the wools east of Rome), and I see 1 more Persian galley reaching.

260AD (1)
Rome: temple >> barracks.
Hippo: library >> courthouse.
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.

Hurry temple in Theveste for 236g.

Make a single scientist in Rome and shut down research, +12gpt.

IBT
It looks like the persian settler/warrior pair is going for the wools, maybe we'll be forced to declare if they take them.

270AD (2)
Trying to block the persian settler/warrior as best as I can: they clearly going for the wools.

IBT
Ottomans and Greece(we haven't met the later yet) sign peace treaty.
Theveste: temple >> harbor.

The persian settler/warrior pair retreats after was blocked efficiently.

280AD (3)
Persia knows Monarchy.
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.


290AD (4)
Persia settles Bactra north of Rome: we can live with it for the moment and maybe the city will be fall in our hands from culture at some point. Right now there're plenty of land for Rome to work, and 1 tile less for Rome(after Bactra's expansion won't do anything to us.)


300AD (5)
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite
Utica: cathedral >> courthouse.

310AD (6)
We see green borders south of Sogut(Ottoman capital); we'll contact Greece in 1-2 turns.

320AD (7)
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.

Rome is doing better now, and we can make a useless entertainer to work. Just be careful because our single scientist is in Rome.

330AD (8)
Monarchy is known by some civs now, so next turn, thanks to the GL, we'll learn it.
Utica completes it's courthouse next turn, and is going to begin the Hanging Gardens. I must say that Utica is our most powerful shield-city.

We meet Greece: Alex is ahead with Monarchy. Greece is in Republic.
Establish embassy with Greece for 115g: Athens is size 9, 22spt, is building the Colosseum(just now will begin building it and it's due in 5 turns) and from what I see, Greece must have it's Golden Age, judging from the shields it's tiles give(example: 4 shields a mined hill, etc...).
Greece has 2 horses and iron.

Establish embassy with Keltoi and they're in Despotism: Entremont is size 6, 7spt, has 1 iron and 1 horse and is produce wealth.

We probably have enough money for now, 105g, +29gpt, Theology in 32, 0% science - It doesn't do anything if we raise the slider.

IBT
The GL gives us the Monarchy.

Greece begins the Hanging Gardens in Thermopylae: We can't see the city, but it probably isn't so powerful like Athens, since there must be some corruption - it's not the capital.

340AD (9)
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.
Rome: barracks >> library.
Utica: courthouse >> Hanging Gardens. Utica produces 23spt with the courthouse(24spt, -1spt from corruption), and will finish the Hanging Gardens in 14 turns.
Hippo: courthouse >> marketplace.

IBT
Babylon starts the Hanging Gardens.

350AD (10)
Nothing.

Summary

1) Develop Hippos' terrain asap. I have 2 workers that clear a forest; they should mine the grassland tile Hippo works, and then cut the other forest at north.
After that, clear the forest with the spices, because Hippo needs to grow further and at some point to work it's second hill(after it's roaded/mined).
Hippo should built the cathedral after the marketlace.
When the 2 workers in Carthage finish mining the mountain, they should join Hippo(currently at size 8, and I already joined a worker in the city).

2) Let Carthage to produce Hoplites all the time for now. I have secured the most part of the ivory-area, and we should occupy the rest tiles and the tiles north/east of Utica.
After that, we should occupy ALL the tiles that can be settled west of Carthage and on the way towards Rome(hills, graasland, plains, forests), so no one can settle in near the mountain areas.

Maybe we could produce units from Hippo also for a little time(cheap units, like archers, as, unlike Carthage, it needs some time to pump hoplites), so we start occupying more tiles, as it's crucial to control all the mountain area.

3) I have enough units fortified east of Rome to not let anyone to settle by landing from the sea or coming from the land, near the 2 wools.

4) Clear all the jungle east of Rome and where our fortified units near the wools are(in jungle, our units could die if they stay for many turns, although it's not something that I saw very often, as I usually don't fortify units in such terrain for long time).

5) Rome will need a cathedral/marketplace after the library to be more happy, although is in better condition now.
Theveste is building a harbor, in case the area to our core cities is settled by other civs or if someone settles and declare war, so our cities will have the luxuries/resources they need.

That's it for now: later on we'll estimate the situation again.
 
I agree with that KA.
Except I'd let Carthage finish cathedral first maybe hurry it in 1 or 2 turns.
Theveste could do with improvements too.
Not sure about monarchy, would it be more benificial than Republic if we are not fighting wars? I dont know Carthages preferred/hated gov. Could be worth finding out.

I wouldn't bother with a 'strong army.' Not unless conquest is going to be a victory condition. Wars will prevent diplomatic victory.

We are speeding up turns and are doing well on the graph.
 
Well, I thought about allowing Carthage to build the cathedral, but it's a priority to secure/occupy the area with units, IMHO.
Maybe it's worth it that Hippo helps with the occupation units along with Carthage to finish sooner and concentrate on improvements/Wonders.
Of course, Carthage is not out of the Wonder Race, as it could build another Wonder while Utica builds one.

Unfortunately, with only 5 cities, our palace pre-build can't last for many turns(the shields needed are not many): Utica needs 13-14 turns to build the palace, for example. Still, we can use it smart.

We will see about another Goverment later on: I was afraid that we wouldn't be able to support all the "occupying" units we'll need.

I also don't want to have wars in this type of map, mainly because the strategic resources will be in different locations and we'd need cities and not colonies to grav them; if it were pangea, we could/would go for conquest.

Anyway, wars or not, a strong army is always needed, for various reasons/tactics. For the time being, we only want to occupy our island.
I'd also like us to have at least 3 hoplites/catapults(canons) in all our cities after a while: when a city don't builds an improvement/Wonder, let it help with the city-defend units as well make workers to join in other cities if needed.

Make sure to buy foreing workers if they are available.
 
1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich

Got it :) will play tomorrow night.
 
Pre-flight

All citizens appear to be working in best config.

IBT

I assume a barb attacked one of our hoplites, we won but I did not see it.
Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite

360AD (1)

Sending hoplites to block the pass with the sheep in it.

IBT

370AD (2)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite
Ottomans are building the Hanging Gardens

380AD (3)

ZZZ

IBT

I saw lots of greeks pouring into ottomans, war must be comming.

390AD (4)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite

400AD (5)

ZZZ

IBT

Greece declares on the ottomans

410BC (6)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite
Hippo Marketplace > Cathedral

420AD (7)

ZZZ

IBT

Rome Library > Marketplace

430AD (8)

ZZZ

IBT

Barb attacks Hoplite and loses but does not promote.
Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite
Theveste Harbour > Library
Greeks are building the Sistine Chapel
Persians are building the hanging gardens

440AD (9)

Ask Alex for Theo but he is not interested.

IBT

Rome expands

450AD (10)

ZZZ

No trading was possible, except selling to others. Was I correct not to sell on the basis we want Sisine?

Score 439.
 
ok. I got the save, will play tonight or tomorrow. It depence from the situation.
 
Good turns, Grayarea.

A few things the next player should watch for:
1) We don't need to have those 2 fortified Hoplites in the ivory, east of Hippo. The land belong to us and no one can settle there without declaring, so we're safe for the moment.
Take the 2 Hoplites to guard/occupy the nearby tiles, so we save time in occupying the land, and later on, we can "protect" our colonies there.

Don't forget to occupy the tiles east of Utica also.

2) Utica and Carthage will expand their borders in 2 and 3 turns respectively, so we'll save some Hoplites to go and occupy the tiles(that can be settled) towards Rome :)

3) Rome's borders have expand, so the Hoplite and the warrior who're fortified east of the city and inside the borders, are needed elsewhere for occupation.

4) Hippo needs to work the mined grassland and not the hill, so it grows in 8 turns, instead of 16 turns.
The 2 workers that cut the spices forest should be ordered to stop their job at the pre-turn of Sir_Ortin's turns, because the forest is outside Hippo's borders and the shields will not go to Hippo. Make them to work the unroaded grassland tile left in Hippo, and then join them in the city.
The other worker pair should mine Hippo's second hill and then go and help to improve Rome's and Theveste's terrain.

5) I think that we should take out the barb camp with the 2 Hoplites, since they have attack 2, but next player can decide if he wants to do it.

Unfortunately, we don't know Theology yet, so we can't have Utica build the Sistine. Anyway, once Utica builds the Hanging Gardens, start immediately a palace pre-build: other Wonders will soon be available, and we can even built Sistine, because the AI don't manages it's citizens wisely and often make entertainers it it's cities.
If we can't built Sistine, let's go for Sun Tzu's; in any case we should start the pre-build.

I'm a little worried from Greece's and Persia's power, especially for the later, since it's right next to us. Ghandi has been left with only 4 cities(with the capital) and the Ottomans with 5.
We should have good relationships with Persia and not try to challenge them, since they have both horses and iron, which means, knights soon.
Greece and Persia are the dominant powers in our game, as it seems.

Persia has Furs and horses to trade for our Ivory and Wool, and it has harbors, so the trade couldn't be cut off suddenly. Because of our bad reputation with what we did to Ceasar(broke the peace treaty), they won't pay either gold or gpt additionally, but I hope that in the future our reputation will become a little better.
 
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0550_01.SAV

450AD (0) -
460AD (1) Carthage built Hoplite, start another. Cleared barb village, +25g. Traded Indian Furs for our Wool.
470AD (2) -
480AD (3) Carthage built Hoplite, start another. Utica built Hanging Gardens, start Palace as prebuild.
IBT: Greeks start build Sistine Chapel.
490AD (4) Increased our since rate to 50% so we could use Palace prebuild for Sistine Chapel.
IBT: Indeans proposed us alliance versus Persians. I declained.
500AD (5) Carthage built Hoplite, start Cathedral. Theveste built Library, start Barracks.Traded Persian Horses for our Wool.
IBT: Ottomans proposed us alliance versus Babylonians. I declained.
510AD (6) -
520AD (7) Rome buils marketplace, start Cathedral. Hippo built Cathedral, start Harbour.
IBT: Babylonians proposed us alliance versus Ottomans. I declained.
530AD (8) Theveste built Barracks, start Marketplace.
IBT: Ottomans and Babylons have signed a peace treaty. India landed at te\he west of rome (near fish).
540AD (9) Joined worker to Hippo.
550AD(10) -

Wi will research Theology in 4 turns - do not forget to switch for SistineChapel. Rome and Theveste are growing very well - no need to join them workers. Also, DO NOT JOIN SLAVES, OR MAKE ANY COLONY. They are absolutely free - no support, forever.
 
A few things to watch for:

1) The 2 Hoplites that are guarding the ivory east of Hippo should go and occupy the 2 unguarded nearby tiles, so no one can settle there by land or sea.

2) The Wools east of Rome are unprotected by sea/land landing: we need 3 units; 2 on the forests and 1 on the hill to secure them, as before. 3 Hoplites that are fortified east of Bactra, could go there, as no one will settle a city just 2 tiles away from Bactra.

3) We haven't yet secured the tiles that can be settled in-bewteen the mountains: we don't need to build any more units for occupation, as the units in the mountains can go and be fortified in those tiles.
We can also order the archer fortified in the mountain to go 1 tile east(on the other mountain), so we "see" the mountains and barb camps don't appear.

4) India has been left with only 2 cities, and Persia will conquer them soon, so our furs deal should be done with Persia(it has furs). I hope that we don't spoil our reputation more, if India's furs are pillaged before our deal ends.
 
Have checked- the Carthaginians favoured government is- REPUBLIC
shunned gov. is- COMMUNISM.

Might be worth staying in Republic until democracy at least.
After this it might even be worth re-evaluating a return later, back to Republic, once railroads are up- Carths being religious.
 
I'd say to stay in Republic for good. We're religious and we'll have our railroads soon with a couple more workers, so, it isn't worth it to revolt just for the railroads.
I'd road/railroad every tile in our island, when we've finished improving Rome and Theveste.

I think that it'll be good to also start occupying(after Carthage builts it's cathedral) the tiles south of Rome first(then we'll settle the north tiles, if no one settles them by that time): if someone settles south of Rome it'll leave the city with fewer tiles to control.

We also need to have a few hoplites fortified in our core cities(we're still with warriors: if someone lands 2-3 good-attacking units there, we'll lose the city) and also built many catapults/canons/artileries.

btw: we need to clear the jungle east of Rome(as well as the jungle our warrior is fortified).
 
KA you could be right about the railroads; still it's only a one turn anarchy and there is the task of connecting the cities to each other too.

So it' s Alext Top's turn then.
 
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