SGOTM7 - Team Chunky

[Khan_Asparuh]

Edited
Well I agree that in some cases the stacking of workers is justified but I definitely think that building serious military is the first task for the next player, along with camps dissolution. With writing around, MM is often the next tech the AI goes for and the peace times are probably over. Landings will start really soon. And it doesn't take that much of a military to cover the workers, our cities will be MP with warriors (if we get the GL we'll have the money to upgrade them later) and the barbs will be dealt with without mercy.
I was firm, Mach, and still am. I hate worker turns waste, you've allready noticed this I think. Rare are the occasions when stacking workers is worth and the barbs have never been my concern when I do this.

 

[chunkymonkey]

I'm generally against stacking workers onto an unroaded tile, but for other jobs where its convenient and efficient and necessary, yeah, why not? We shouldn't really be sending workers to places where they could get attacked easily without escorts anyway.

Now we're pretty sure we don't have anyone on this island - 50 turns without massacre - perhaps we should think about clearing some fog and dissolving all the camps. That barb rush would be nasty, although if it comes to it we could always have a sacrificial town near the camp to absorb the barbs when they come.

Anyway, I think you did a good job Baalzebul. I don't see any glaringly obvious errors from the save or your log. Yeah we lost a couple of units, but deity roaming barbs were always going to be a nuisance.

I think we should give that goats tile to Edirne ASAP it could do with the extra shield. And lets get that red dot settled soon. That will be a formidable city later on.

Have fun with it Khan

In response to Mach's earlier question about who gets the shields from a forest chop - I read an article a while back about it, and I seem to remember taking the forest as reference point, it looks for the first city in this order - N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW,NNE,NENE,ENE,ESE,SESE,SSE,SSW,SWSW,WSW,WNW,NWNW,NNW (if that makes sense! )

 

[Mach]

I hate worker turns waste

Me too. But I hate overall waste even more. Sometimes it's a tradeoff, like when we're already working a undeveloped tile, and wasting a worker turn nets us a few extra gp and a few extra shields. In our case, maybe wasting a worker turn here and there might mean an archer finished a bit earlier, or a turn off the GL...I dunno, most of the time you're right you shouldn't waste worker turns, but you gotta think about all these things at once, not just the workers themselves. Sometimes sacrificing worker turns nets you bigger gains, like sacrificing pieces in chess.

When should we expect landings? The Zulu got writing a few turns ago, and I would expect them to go for Map Making quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing evil swords on our shores within the 30 turns, maybe even earlier...

If we're gonna send a force after a barb camp and fog, go after the eastern one. Red Dot City will pop the western one for us, so just send some forces with the next settler.

 

[chunkymonkey]

I would expect Zulu/Indians to research Maps in the next 15/20 turns, have a couple of galleys out in 5 turns - then a slow dribble of swords will come pouring onto the coast of Istanbnul or Iznik (probably in my turnset ). I'm not too scared. This is Deity, but AI is still lame when it comes to beach warfare. I hope to have stack of at least 6-8 vet archers by the time they start landng, and having 1-2 more pop out per turn.

This is why we need to get rid of the barb camps soonish. We can't commit archers to swatting away barbs when we have zulu and indian swords landing near Istanbul. Once we are barb-free, I will be much more satisfied.

 

[Mach]

Once we are barb-free, I will be much more satisfied.

Oh yeah, me too.

zulu and indian swords landing near Istanbul

We should talk about this at some point: how do we make sure they land near Istanbul, as opposed to landing near some other city? It would be nice if we could predict what the ai's would do. They tend to target weakness...

Also, I can't comment on this since I can't see the save right now, but...what can we do to speed our prebuild? We're 20 turns from lit, but what, 40-50 from the GL? We have to do better than that. Should we merge a worker? Maybe someone should try to calculate this build out...

 

[Baalzebul]

We can stack workers on roaded tiles like this. Say we will irrigate a tile. It takes 3 turns. First round two workers start irrigation second round we wake one of the workers and send it to work another tile. If it takes 2,4,6 etc... turns there won't be waste either.

And there's another point. Ok we lose a worker turn but gain other things. By completing the road a turn earlier we lose a worker turn but gain one commerce and move faster between cities earlier. Or by completing a mine few turns before we can gain one or more shields. So I don't believe that it's a total waste but a choice. If need arises it can be used.

I agree that we must get rid of those silly barbs as soon as possible. If an barb uprising occurs that will be really annoying. Red dot city is a must and east of our land must be explored too. Maybe we can find interesting things there.

For Edirne (Not Edrine please ) we must assign two incense workers there improving tiles. Our priority must be olive hills. And we can give sheep to Edirne.

For Conan do we have to ask what to do at maintence thread or just skip him?

 

[chunkymonkey]

We can stack workers on roaded tiles like this. Say we will irrigate a tile. It takes 3 turns. First round two workers start irrigation second round we wake one of the workers and send it to work another tile. If it takes 2,4,6 etc... turns there won't be waste either.

Bah. Micromanagement...

And there's another point. Ok we lose a worker turn but gain other things. By completing the road a turn earlier we lose a worker turn but gain one commerce and move faster between cities earlier. Or by completing a mine few turns before we can gain one or more shields. So I don't believe that it's a total waste but a choice. If need arises it can be used.

Agree, but this should only the case for unimproved tiles that are being worked by citizens or tiles that will be worked by citizens upon growth, otherwise it is a waste of worker turns, since he could be doing something else more urgent.

Our priority must be olive hills. And we can give sheep to Edirne.

You meant goats right? The tile that is E of Uskudar. Istanbul needs all the sheep to stay at +5fpt. We should give this to Edirne. And yeah, when we get a chance, see to the olive hills. Although it will take a while to improve them. If there are any flat tiles that need working as well, these should be done first.

For Conan do we have to ask what to do at maintence thread or just skip him?

Skip him, he doesn't appear to have been online for the past ten days, so until he signs in we'll just act like he isn't here. If he misses two rounds, then i'll tell mad-bax. It would be tricky to integrate him into the game after 100 turns...

 

[Baalzebul]

You' re right I' m left.
Goats not the sheep. I couldn' t get used to those new resources. It is a desert tile so it must be mined I think. It now gives 2f 2s.

I just remembered something. Can someone check the last save file and write our neighbors score. From that we can have an opinion about their size. I'm at work now so I couldn't do it.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Taking out the second worker before the work is done is wasting the turns he has allready spent I think. Check this before trying to apply it. I mean that if the first turn the two work together, the second we wake one, the other will need 2 more turns to irrigate. I've tried this and I think I'm right. Anyways I don't do it anymore.
I guess Conan is skipped and I'm up. Scheduled tonight.
EDIT:

N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW,NNE,NENE,ENE,ESE,SESE,SSE,SSW,SWSW,WSW,WNW,NWNW,NNW

Changed thoughts, the time it takes to figure out what does this mean may lead me to 2012 approximately... But I will follow your instructions, chief, be sure about this. I never forget RULE 1!

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

SGOTM7 1750 BC
(0)
The regular warrior in Uskudar is less tempting to me than a granary, I think of the worker factory. We have 30% lux and desperately need those cheap MPs. I decide to set Istanbul on warrior-warrior-warrior-settler 6 turn mode, giving some sheep to the other cities. This will be done on the next turn.
I send archers to face the western barbs.
The warrior protecting the workers on the insense is sent on the mountain. He can explore and the lux is not yet in danger.
(IBT) Barb warrior redlines our warrior on mountain.
(1)
MMing tiles gets Edirne growing without waste. Same for Bursa, Istanbul will waste one food. The insense allows us to lower the tax to 10%.
Will road to the next city location near the spices, but the tile will be used by Edirne. Litterature in 15. I would prefer delaying it until our prebuild is ready. We have 320 shields to go. Cheapened literature will give it to the civs we know easier. The Zulus know writing. Due in 25 turns at 50%.
(IBT) Barb kills our regular archer on a forest across the river. Flawlessly. The other attacks Uskudar and is defeated.
(2)
Move the new warrior to Edirne. Istanbul still requires MP, Edirne is at 6spt.
(IBT) Indians come to speak. Busy, don’t come back.
(3)
Istanbul is working a coast tile for commerce. Settler in 3 turns. Our archer is between two barbs. It’s either elite or dead.
(IBT) They don’t attack.
(4)
Barbs show near our workers. I’ll have to stop one. Our warrior founds their camp and PINK BORDERS!
(IBT) The horse is chasing our workers. You’ll pay now.
(5)
Archer kills barb warrior and is next to barb camp. Our Iznik warrior kills the horse and promotes. The other warrior clears the camp and contacts Arabia. They don’t have money nor writing, 4 techs up (IW, CB, Wheel, maths). I take The Wheel for Writing and DECLARE WAR ON ARABIA. Am I the only one playing AW? Certainly the only one declaring Re trade, writing was enough for a single tech and Arabia knows Zululand as their borders touch. And I prefer horses to swords because of their speed and upgrade path. We have connected horses next to Istanbul. I had no doubt.
Give the sheep again to Istanbul so growth and settler next turn, no shield waste and 1 food wasted. Edirne doesn’t suffer shield-wise as I give it the goats desert. Prebuild has 50 turns to go.
Score table: India 423, Zulus 384, Arabia 332, us 268.
The Arabs are not on our island otherways we would had seen their scouts.
(6)
Istanbul settler – warrior. Barbs show near our worker mining the future Edirne BG tile. Those barbs are pissing me off. I’ve lost a regular warrior against one of them. I don’t stop the worker but cover him with a warrior. Let’s see. I take a risk. Uskudar is empty right now so I think they’ll go there. Veteran archer dies against barb in camp. I HATE THEM
(IBT) Zulus come and leave. As predicted, the barbs go for Uskudar. Zulus build Oracle.
(7)
Barb horse and warrior killed with redlined regular warrior. I will go for another 3 warriors and settler in Istanbul. We need them.
(8)
Iznik Rax – warrior. Izmit founded on hill near spices. Worker sent to road them as we need them. My risk was worth as the mined BG sets Edirne at 7spt with a sheep worked and wasteless growth in 3.
(IBT) Bursa rax – archer.
(9)
Spices online in 6.
(IBT) Not much.
(10)
We have a warrior next to the barb camp in the west, I hope the next leader has more luck than the two that played before him.


Post turn: I have preferred the growth in the prebuild city, as well as military. I’ve let down the combo factory for 3warriors-settler 6 turn. Don’t forget to give Istanbul Iznik’s irrigated plain, so the worker and growth will be due in 1. And to MM isnik for 3-3-4 spt warrior.
India still ignores Writing, I don’t know what do the others research.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Another info: there's a barb camp in the south, our warrior is looking for them...

 

[Mach]

Looks good, Khan, although I can't view the save yet. I got it, can play tomorrow; that should give enough time for discussion. Initial impressions...

Map Making has to be just around the corner, probably during my turns. I'll try to build archers. (BTW Khan, was it possible to get IW for writing? Swords would have done us much better than chariots right now, but oh well.)

I think we screwed up with Edirne, we should have built it up faster. Lit in 11 and GL in 38 won't cut it; even given growth that's about 25 turns for an ai to discover lit and a cascade to take the GL out. I'll do everything I can to get her to higher spt; I'll look at merging a worker, for instance...

It's tempting to send the next settler to that eastern red dot, to close up that front from barbs. But I'll send him to the cow, since that's such a strong spot.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Actually this may be considered as a mistake but i prefered faster units that can wound and rethreat. I could have had IW and I let it go. Meditated on the question for long time I have, young padowan . I didn't wanted to deny us building warriors.
Sorry if the team disagrees.
Concerning GL, I think that we must slower research even more (actually min research is about the best timing with the prebuild). I've done my best to get Edirne up in shields, it's 7spt now I think.

 

[Baalzebul]

Good work I believe.

Building Izmit there first is a good move. So our core cities are safer now.

We have a lot of things to do. Iznik and Istanbul needs spears.

Now first city must be built next to cow. The second can be build next to horse.

If we contact another civ we have to get horseback riding before declaring war. Even we might buy it.

What about building a boat and searching another civ?

 

[chunkymonkey]

Everything's looking great. I'll have a look at the save later but good call with getting the wheel. I too would prefer horses over swords. Chariots are lame but we can use them to take out archers and other horses, leaving archers to take out swords.

Perhaps we could get a boat out searching for another civ to give us HBR (i'm not sure how this will affect tech rate for civs we know if we know anyone else)? Or maybe we could pop it from one of those huts [/fingers crossed]

Anyway good job lets try get Edirne as productive as possible and just make a run for Lit. Our best hope is that civs aren't talking to one another, and the cascade ends before civs research Lit, which they won't do until they have a govt. tech and Currency and Construction in my experience. I still think we've got a good shot.

EDIT: Actually, if we merge a worker into Edirne now, next turn it grows, and we should be able to get 10 net shields out. This decreases our production time to 27 turns. It would be a major setback now if we didn't get the Library. I think we should put extra effort into Edirne. I think we should merge workers until they get too unhappy there with 10% lux and 2 police. What does everyone think?

 

[Mach]

Yes, I think now we're doing everything we can to get the GL. Slowing research, for instance, will increase our chances of getting it, but it'll really hurt us if we don't. That's what I'm going to do; I'm just stressing the point: we have to get the GL...

I stared at Edirne as well, CM. I calculate the corruption to be somewhere between 25% and 28%, which means if we merge a worker, there's a chance it'll be at only 9spt. I was going to do this -- after I got the olive hill mined.

We could merge 2 workers into the city. If we did that asap, then Edirne would need to keep the sheep for longer, but I don't like that. Istanbul will waste food in the 2-sheep state (it'll be at +4fpt, and no one can share another of the sheep), so I really really want to give her back Edirne's sheep. I could wait to merge the 2nd worker, that way we'll have time to irrigate Edirne a plains.

So I was gonna merge 1 worker then play it by ear. If we're at 9spt, I would definitely merge the 2nd worker. If we're at 10spt, then I'd think about it. (We have diminishing returns here -- going from 10spt to 11spt will knock off about 2 turns.) Either way, I'm giving Istanbul back the sheep; wasting food is bad. Also I was going to put Istanbul in a spear --> worker --> settler state, to make up for the workers we're gonna merge.

I could play right now, but I'll wait for you to look at the save, CM. No need to rush today...

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Do as you see it, Mach. If we need those 11 spt for the lib we must take them.
Have fun.
I'm OK with the boat out, as it'll slow the research of the civs we declare to.

 

[chunkymonkey]

OK had a look. Things I would suggest...

Move warrior in Izmit into Edirne to control unhappiness on growth. Move the citizen currently working forest in Izmit to the spice. The shields are wasted in Izmit.

Next turn, put the new citizen on forest. Merge the worker that will finish road next turn, and put that citizen on forest. I'm hoping this gives 10spt. I'm not sure if we could contain extra unhappiness by merging more workers than this, so yeah, play it by ear, i'm sure everything'll work out.

Lets get a boat out, but i think priority should be to clear fog and eradicate barbs.

Have fun! If the Zulus get Maps, don't panic, just concentrate.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Have fun! If the Zulus get Maps, don't panic, just concentrate.

... and kill something else than barbs, because I and Baalzebul had enough of these

 

[Mach]

Preflight (1500BC)
Sci to 20%, lit in 32
Move some citizens, get a bit of extra gold.
(I) zzz

T1 (1475BC)
Move the warrior and merge a worker into Edirne. 3/13 corrupt, woohoo! Lux to 30%.
Flawlessly defeat a warrior in the barb camp, there's still a horsie in there.
(I) zzz

T2 (1450BC)
Pop the western camp, and discover the eastern one.
There's another cow by the one we know!
Give the sheep back to Istanbul.
Check out these two spots...

I think barb galleys means someone in the world has Map Making.
Sci to 30%. I just realized that we'll need to discover lit before we outgrow our palace prebuild, in 17 turns.
(I) zzz

T3 (1425BC)
Pop the southern camp, and I can see into the greenish borders. I'm gonna leave that warrior there until someone walks into our view.
(I) zzz

T4 (1400BC)
(I) Spices get hooked up.

T5 (1375BC)
Archer defeats a barb warrior, losing 1hp, promotes to elite.
Found Aydin on Red Dot.
Lux to 20%.
I stare and stare at Bursa...how can we get it to 8 or 10spt? I'm gonna concentrate effort there.
(I) Barb horse appears from sw of Uskudar.

T6 (1350BC)
Archer fortifies to heal.
(I) Barb horse fortifies.

T7 (1325BC)
(I) Barb horse moves onto Goodie Hut Mountain, damn. And another appears...

T8 (1300BC)
Kill the goodie hut barb, and pop barbs. Spot the camp and it has another horse in it. This causes a problem, now I can't safely get to our workers to the fp wheat.
Kill another barb.
At least we hold the high ground...cross fingers.
(I) Barb warrior loses to archer on mountain. The rest fortify.

T9 (1275BC)
Deep breath. Elite archer def. barb horse, losing another hp, he's down to 2.
Vet archer loses to barb horse, take 1hp off.
Reg. warrior loses to barb horse.
Vet warrior def. killer barb horse, losing 2hp.
(I) Barb warrior flawlessly kills our wounded archer.

T10 (1250BC)
Move wounded warrior to mountain.

Ok, that's it. Great Library in 17 turns, or not. No sense in merging in another worker, as the next shield it gets will be corrupt.

Did poorly against the barbs, blame the PRNG. At least I killed more than I lost. They aren't quite under control, but the situation is better than it was 2 turns ago, and all we lost was archers. No workers, for instance.

Speaking of which, we only have 1 left. Bursa is building 'em in 4-turns, and Iznik is building 'em in 5-turns. And Istanbul can get out one every 6 turns if you keep the unit --> worker --> settler cycle I followed. Bursa grows in 4 turns, if you merge a worker after that, you can get it to 7spt. We have 6 workers, and another will pop next turn. The big thing we have going for us: lots of workers.

Another city will found next turn by the eastern horses. I suggest garrisoning every other city: Istanbul, Aydin, and the city about to found. That way the ai's are likely to land near Bursa or Iznik, and we can attack from the sides.

The ai's have yet to discover Map Making. I wonder what's going on there, but I won't complain. We are nowhere near being ready for invasion.

We haven't met those green guys yet.