SGOTM7 - Team Chunky

[chunkymonkey]

Hmm, I would personally prefer to have the 4 warriors for bulk. Seeing as how our 2 blue dots will be solely military cities anyways we will be pumping out archers and spears like nobody's business after they've been founded, but for now we need bulk forces to act as worker escorts and police.

I agree we will need the rax in Ibul eventually. I just think we should wait until we've got some more cover. Rest of the lineup seems good to me.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

well it can come after an archer-settler-worker cycle. We have 3 cities, not worth more defense for now. At least for the next 10 turns.
I know. I count badly. But I'm at work and a bit concentrated so I omitted the double cycle. That's why I'm going home. See/read you later.
EDIT: To offer an alternative solution, we can go 10spt and 3-4 fpt with second mined BG, leaving the last sheep to the prebuilding city 6 turns out of 8, and go for 50 shields worth military build and a settler in 8 turns. I hope I don't mess the numbers when I say that.

 

[Mach]

I had thought about slowing the cycle in Istanbul to give a sheep to Edrine during my turns, but I didn't because Edrine doesn't have all that many good tiles to work yet, so I didn't see much point in having it grow too fast, at least until we can get another worker down there.

(Also, can Istanbul be at 10spt at size 5 if it's not getting the 2 shields from that sheep? Hm, I forget...)

Do what makes you comfortable, chunky, I'm sure you'll figure out something nice for us.

Here's a question: when we chop a forest near Edrine (and I'm pretty sure we'll want to do that someday), where will the wood go? They can't go to the prebuild because it's a wonder, correct? Maybe the chop will go to Istanbul, and maybe we can use that to help a rax along? This one is way over my head. Maybe I'll fire up a test game this evening to try this out, see what happens...if I have time, I'm up in 2 SGs...

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

for the production we have no interest chopping a forest on plains... it won't improve the tile.

 

[chunkymonkey]

Sorry guys, had girlfriend issues last night so couldn't play. Gonna play right now, just after I finish reading the new Civ4 article...

 

[chunkymonkey]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm7/Chunky_SG007_BC2150_01.SAV

0 - 2550BC - Everything's looking sweet.
IBT - Barb to the west fortifies, and another moves behind him.

1 - 2510BC - Istanbul settler -> settler. Make sure we are at 10spt. Our neighbours now have IW. Up sci to 80%. Settler moves to join worker and warrior.
IBT - Fortified barb moves SE into fogged forest. Other barb fortifies.

2 - 2470BC - Move settler onto blue dot with warrior and backup from istanbul. Take warrior from Edrine to Ibul for police. Ibul worker irrigates plains to complete Ibul works.
IBT - Barb fortifies SW of blue dot. Western barb moves west out of view.

3 - 2430BC - Up lux to 30%. Found Bursa on blue dot and start building archer. Do some tileswapping between the three to maximise potential. Move policeman back to Edrine. Garrison Bursa warriors.
IBT - Barb moves south, away from Bursa.

4 - 2390BC - Istanbul settler -> warrior. Up sci to 80%. Move settler towards eastern blue dot. Realise there is a free river crossing out of Ibul (NE,S,E). Take Ibul warrior along as an escort. Move a Bursa warrior to Ibul for MP. Decide most effective thing to do with Edrine worker is to road incense, then irrigate a nearby river plains tile before Edrine grows. Give him an escort.
IBT - Western barb comes back into view. Bursa barb fortifies.

5 - 2350BC - Istanbul warrior -> warrior. Some tile jiggery. Move eastern settler into place. See the Zulus borders are being terrorised by barb camp too. Set Ibul worker mining Bursa BG.
IBT - Bursa barb back on the move, moves east toward Edrine.

6 - 2310BC - Istanbul warrior -> spear. Found Iznik and start rax. Reassign warriors for police purposes.
IBT - Western barb moves north out of sight. Edrine barb fortifies. Indians start building Pyramids in Delhi.

7 - 2270BC - Up lux to 30%.
IBT - Edrine barb moves onto mined grass, screwing up growth in Edrine but we retain shields when governor moves citizen to forest.

8 - 2230BC - Istanbul spear -> worker. Edrine warrior attacks barb, winning, goes to 2hp. Spear moves to station in Bursa. Up sci to 80%.
IBT - We have incense! Zulus destroy their offending barb camp. 2 barb warriors appear near Bursa.

9 - 2190BC - Istanbul worker -> worker. Up sci to 80%. Worker moves to connect Iznik. Bursa worker moves to NW of Edrine to irrigate plains. Edrine worker moves across river to irrigate plains.
IBT - Western barbs fortify.

10 - 2150BC - Istancul worker -> settler. Rejiggle warriors. Up sci to 90%.

Notes:

The newly built worker is sitting in Istanbul awaiting instructions. I see two things he could do: (1) - go irrigate an road the plains 2 NE of Edrine. (2) - road and mine the grass SW of Ibul. (3) - chop a forest SE of Bursa, which would provide shields for a rax build there, allow space for irrigation, and a quicker route from Edrine to Bursa. I think we should go with 3 since 1 and 2 do not provide any immediate benefit, but i leave it open to discussion.

Bursa will build a regular archer in 3 turns. Do we want to swap this to rax now (which will be done in 7 turns with a forest chop), or just get the archer first then worry about rax later?

It's extremely important that everything is micromanaged perfectly. There was one time I almost hit enter without remembering that the Instanbul governor had placed the new citizen on the forest .

The next player will need to increase lux on the first turn, otherwise Ibul will probably riot.

Settler will be out in 3, so where should he go? I propose yellow dot so we can start our worker factory and give Edrine access to the goats. Red dot should should probably be next since it is a sweet spot, assuming we can disperse the barb camp. Pink dot later for access to spices. Suggestions?

I'll try and think about the next build order for Ibul in a bit and post that up.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Looks quite fine.
I think it's about time to build rax in Istanbul, Bursa's archer, even regular can go and try to clear the barbs.
Did the zulu mentionned his favorite swimming style?
Baalzebul is up.

 

[Mach]

Looks awesome, CM. None of the ai's have writing yet, eh? We have to watch carefully: once they get Map Making, we should expect landings. We're in a lull right now. I think we shouldn't build any more warriors, and concentrate on covering our cities with spears, with archers for offense.

I suggest moving that worker to Bursa, which is going to need another tile very soon. Develop another 2 food tile (1 sw of Istanbul, for instance), then start a chop next to Bursa. I think I agree with Khan -- the time to build barracks is now, in both Istanbul and Bursa. Before long I think our need for units will outpace everything else; right now we're secure enough against barbs, so we have a (very) little time. I'm cool with finishing that archer first though, and sending him and a warrior (or him and the spear) after those western barbs.

I'm happy with our prebuild, I think our chances at the GL are as good as they're gonna get. I wish Edrine had another worker, though. Those olives need to be mined. Keep in mind that before we get the GL (and thus iron and horsies and maybe cats...), though, we're gonna be defending against sword landings with archers and spears; we should be ready for that...

Yellow dot then red dot looks good to me. I love how our workers are all within our defensive perimeter now.

 

[Baalzebul]

We're going great at least we're still alive.

I agree with you but there' s another problem that we musn't forget . Culture! The Indians are closing and Zulus will close us too. Our coastal cities will be vulnarable to enemy culture. So we must build libraries after researching literature.

I think I can play mid tomorrow.

 

[Mach]

We are indeed still alive. We actually all get to play a turnset. Maybe some of us will even get to play two!

Hm, well libraries are a tough question. I don't think our flip chances will be all that great, considering how well our costal cities will need to be manned after Map Making is discovered. The GL will have to serve our civwide culture.

Also, if we get the GL, we probably won't be doing much research (if any) until somewhere around chemistry; so the effect of libraries will be nonexistant until then. I had imagined that we would cash-rush libraries right before we go to turn research back on in the Middle Ages. If we really want culture, maybe temples would be better, since we'd actually use their effect in the short term. But personally, I think culture is the least of our worries. Military first.

 

[chunkymonkey]

Remember also that libraries are half price for us so they probably are the better investment... depends on the situation really. We will need to research our way to MilTrad anyway once the Library becomes obsolete. But that's not for now. The cities under threat from flipping will be very heavily garrisoned, as Mach points out. And military is more important. Any cities that flip we will just take back straight away.

 

[Mach]

Oh yeah, libs are half price for us, I forgot about that.

I'd just like to add that if we don't get the GL, then we'll need libs as quickly as possible...

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

I agree on libs one day in iznik and bursa only.
Can you check the value of our palace prebuild? 'Coz pyramids won't hold for long, and I don't want us to be left with a palace due in 1 turn... That's why we shouldn't go too fast on the prebuild... I see litterature in at least 30 turns, the prebuild must hold for so long.

 

[Mach]

Ok, so since Baal isn't going to play for a bit, we have time to figure some stuff out. Here's what I'm thinking...

Workers:
Istanbul -- move sw to road/mine, then sw-s to chop forest for Bursa's rax
Edrine -- finish road/irrigate where he is, then go to work Olive Hill
NE Isnik -- finish roading, then e-se to forest, to chop for rax
SW Isnik -- finish road/irrigate, then move e to road/mine the bg

Builds:
Istanbul -- settler (size 5) --> worker (4 1/2) --> rax (6 1/2) --> worker (6) --> worker (5 1/2) --> settler (5) --> 6-turn combo. (This assumes we keep Istanbul at 10spt the whole time.)
Bursa -- archer --> archer --> rax
Isnik -- rax --> archer
Edrine -- dum de dum
Yellow Dot -- granary first?

What to do with the workers we get out of Istanbul? We don't need that many right now. I say we merge one each into Bursa and Iznik, to increase production. We'll have our military factories up and running faster this way. (Maybe it's worth having them pause to work a tile before doing that.) The third worker could go work Yellow Dot. Anyways, this puts Istanbul in 6-turn combo mode, with a rax, in 13 turns. If we can survive that long, we'll be in good shape.

Anyways, that's what I'd do. Hope it helps. Feel free to rip me up, guys.

 

[Baalzebul]

First of all you might not like what you see so if you' re a bit nervous don't read this thread. I think I made a few tactical mistakes.

Turn 0 2150BC

Preseason training:

Everything looks fine. Both India and Zulu have CB, The Wheel, IW and maybe more.
Our writing is due 9 turns.
Palace prebuild for Edirne is 87 turns so it makes about 260 shields. I think it would be enough.
Changed wrong name of Edrine to Edirne.

IBT
One barb war is returning to village, the other disappears heading SE of Bursa. One barb warrior heads for Edirne.

Turn 1 2110BC

Lux to %20. Writing due 9 turns again.
Begin moving Bursa warrior to Edirne because of barbarian threat.

IBT
Barbarian moves to the top of incense. I should have moved the Edirne warrior there before but I didn't want to leave the city empty. Another barb warrior is heading towards Edirne.

Turn 2 2070BC

Now what to do? Attack with Istanbul warrior to secure incense or not. I decide to attack and lost warrior.
Take one of the Bursa warriors to escort the incoming Settler.
Move Iznık warrior to chopping forrest for rax.

IBT
Barb plunders incense. Arghhh... Other barb lands near Edirne. A barb horse is seen at the mountains NE of Edirne. What the hell is goin' on?
Bursa builds archer --> archer
Istanbul builds settler --> warrior We need cheap protection from barbs.
Indians are building Pyramids.
Zulu are building the oracle. So they have poly.
Zulu are building Pyramids.

Turn 3 2030BC

Move Archer towards Edirne.
Move Iznik forest worker to city because of barb horse threat.
Took Settler and warrior to Edirne.
Took Ist warrior to Edirne for defense.
Edirne worker at plains start roads after irrigation.
Took a deep breath and press space.

IBT
Ist builds warrior --> worker
Bursa Barb warrior fortifies.
SE Edirne barb warrior moves to SW incense.
Both Barb horse and warrior move to N of Edirne threatining our Bursa and Iznık workers.

Turn 4 1990BC

Move archer to Edirne and barb warrior killing him. Decide to attack with warrior to horseman not to lose worker turns. He attacks and killed by horseman.
Wake both workers losing turns. One moves to Edirne The other Iznik forest.
Settler and warrior waits at Edirne not to leave a single warrior there.
Move Iznik warrior towards to Edirne. I didn' t do this last round because I wasn't sure where the barb horse will head towards.

IBT
Barb horse attacks our warrior. Warrior killed horse is damaged.
Ist builds worker --> rax

Turn 5 1950BC

Archer attacks the damaged horse and kill it.
Move warrior from Edirne to hills W of barb warrior. See a barb village W of wheat occupied with a single warrior.
I decide to take risk and move settler with warrior we lost to many turns.
I move one worker towrds incense. It will be there next round.
Move worker to irrigated Plains for road.
Iznik workers begin chopping forest.
I take a deep breath again and press space.

IBT
Barb warrior attacks our warrior protecting our settler. Our warrior survives but only with one hp.

Turn 6 1910BC

Move archer to settler.
Take another risk and move settler & damaged warrior to yellow dot. There's only asingle barb warrior protecting village.
I take a deep breath again and press space. I will have a heart attack if it goes like this.

IBT
Iznık forest is chopped.Barb warrior fortified at S of Bursa heads towars our Settler. Another barb horse seen SW of Bursa.
Will it ever end?

Turn 7 1870BC

Move worker and warrior of Edirne to incense. Move one of Ist warriors to Edirne.
Uskudar founded & barb village destroyed giving us 25 gold. Uskudar begins working warrior 5 turns growth 10 turns. Damaged warrior fortifies at Uskudar.
Archer moves to Uskudar.
Iznık workers double road and finish plains.

IBT
Barb warrior moves NW of Uskudar. Barb Horse moves to S of Bursa.

Turn 8 1830BC
Move double workers to grassland S of Iznik.
Archer waits don't want to leave Uskudar now.
Move another worker towards incense. We need lux as soon as possible.

IBT
Barb horse move NW of Uskudar, Barb warrior moves to spice hills N of Uskudar.
Ist rax --> worker

Turn 9 1790BC

Archer attacks the barb horse, kill him lose 1 hp.
Begin chopping NE Bursa forest.
Double roaded the Iznik grassland.
Lux is up to % 30. Writng 1 turn so I pull science to % 0. I assign a scientist at Iznik which was working at a oyster. So I get 11 gpt.

IBT

Barb war attacks our damaged archer and destroyed. Our archer is veteran now.
We learned writing. Now we' re heading for literature.
Ist builds rax --> Warrior
Bursa builds archer --> Rax
A barb warrior is seen at the east of Edirne again! Enough...

Turn 10 1750BC

Set science to % 70. Literature due at 21 turns with a -2 gpt. Not too fast.
Move Iznik warrior to E for irrigation.
I didn' t play all the moves of units and leaved them to Khan.

Close Season:

I' m not sure but I might have made mistakes but the barbs are a real headeche.
I think in the next set of play we must concenterate at building defenses, destroying barbs and building new cities.
Our workers would be enough for a sometime.
And Iznik is under the threat of Zulu culture. Keep an eye on it.
Both Zulu & İndia have CB, IW, Wheel, Math. Zulu have poly and writing.

Good Luck

 

[Baalzebul]

And this is the silly barbarians.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Tough luck with those silly barbs, Baalzebul. I didn't see any tactical errors, so don't worry; it's only some barb camps we must get rid of before the AI goes medieval, and this is really important. Each camp is equivalent to 20 horses to defend against in 50 turns. I'm not up, normaly it's ConanConQ's turn.
EDIT: He hasn't been around for more than a week. I'll take it tomorrow if he doesn't show up. Standard 24 hours.
EDIT2: I don't know if you follow the points shown in the SGOTM site, but as a curious n00b i do so I'll let you know. If we proceed this way we'll lose our chances for the Wooden Spoon
EDIT3: Oracle comes with Mysticism I think, it's the ToA with Poly.

 

[Mach]

Baalzebul the save looks really admirable, actually. Dealing with Deity barbs with what we had couldn't have been easy, and all we lost was a few reg warriors, some interrupted workers, and the incense road. All in all, I think we're in good shape. Our military is a bit weak, but we have good production capabilities. Our prebuild is still doing fine, although we need to speed it up a bit. You saw the one mistake (not having a warrior planted on the incense), but that wasn't just your mistake; none of us suggested it.

I think barb horsemen only show up if a civ has discovered HBR. Our sci went to 0% to get writing? That must mean the Zulu discovered it the turn before us, that sucks, lost beakers, oh well. Must watch for Map Making. I suggest bringing the spear over to Edrine -- it's under barb attack, and we really can't afford to have it sacked.

I think I see the value of stacking workers in a game like this now. Yes it wastes 1 worker turn each move to a non-roaded tile, but they get stuff done faster. They road in 1 turn, for instance. So in the case of the Edrine and Iznik workers being interrupted by a barb, maybe if they had been stacked they could have gotten more improvements done before they retreated. I suggest we stack our workers into pairs when we can.

Change the Istanbul warrior to an archer or spear, I think. Next city to Red Dot (take an archer and spear with it) to get rid of that barb camp.

Oh and I had a silly thought about dealing with landings in the future. Are we allowed to stack the coasts with units so the ai's can't land? We could then bomb their galleys with cats from the coast, and finish them off with our own galleys. Might be pretty economical...

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

I think that the sollution of blocking the shores is allowed only with military units with attack and defense strenghts. No cats or workers can be used. Must check in the maintenance thread.
I'm firmly against stacking workers on unroaded tiles. They do road in 1 turn, but losing one turn of theirs wastes our industrial threat. It means that we road a tile for 4 worker turns, equal to the work of a normal worker.
And the barb threats are not enough to make us do this. I prefer stopping some workers instead of this, as we'll lose 1 turn for each tile we improve (road), compared to a few turns from time to time.

 

[Mach]

I'm still firmly for it. I would rephrase what you said, I wouldn't say it wastes our industrial threat, I would say "our industrious trait is what allows us to get so much done even in the face of barbs". A few more points...

Getting the road done in 1 turn allows us to escape more easily. If a barb horse lands next to a worker who is roading, he can't escape because he can only move one tile. Getting the road done asap gives our workers the best escape route, since they can move along roads out of the horse's range.

We have 6 workers right now, and we can't dream of covering them all working seperately. But we can do a much better job of covering 3 pairs with the military we have...

We are using undeveloped tiles in our cities, so we are in greater need of getting one tile upgraded now, then two upgraded more efficiently when we'll only use one in the short term. (But I say this in general, without really examining the save...)

I'm not suggesting make solid inseperable pairs; it does take us 3 to irrigate, after all. I'm just saying don't be afraid to pair them up when it's convienient, even when roading. For instance, with our two workers near Iznik -- I think they can get that bg mine done in 2 turns. It's (possibly) your turn next Khan, so I'll shut up, I'm sure you'll figure it out well.