SGOTM8 - Durkz

[WarDance]

I took out the 3 turn settler factory bit. Ready to "take it public"?

As for strategy and future plans, I think applying Zyxy's option 2 would be beneficial against the Vikings. I'm concerned about them taking the entire western island and becoming a bear militarily. They could be a pain to clear out later. I think if we can at least keep them to 50% or less of that land mass it would greatly benefit us.

 

[Niklas]

Aye, let her fly, she's a beauty!

Are you all set for your turnset? Everything perfectly clear? Just get those troops where they should be and I bet you'll roll right over those Greasy fellows.

Since TA stopped short you can play up to 15 turns if you like, or fewer if you think it's too many.

 

[WarDance]

Ok, I loaded up the game and noticed something I don't remember being discussed. We currently have a gpt deal with Greece. 15 turns left on it. Are we breaking this? Did I somehow miss that in the previous posts? I have not moved a single unit or done anything at all besides look... moderators please note, as this will show up as a reload when I go back to actually play my turns.

As for the spoiler, posting it in just a minute. Thanks for all the help with it!

 

[zyxy]

Ok, I loaded up the game and noticed something I don't remember being discussed. We currently have a gpt deal with Greece. 15 turns left on it. Are we breaking this?

They are paying, right? I think it was a tech deal, and we'll break it. Is it much?

Did I somehow miss that in the previous posts? I have not moved a single unit or done anything at all besides look... moderators please note, as this will show up as a reload when I go back to actually play my turns.

It doesn't, unless you save-and-load. Load-and-load-and-load-and-load counts as one load. Or, that's what they told me.

As for the spoiler, posting it in just a minute. Thanks for all the help with it!

Thank you for writing it!

 

[The Adjudicator]

I traded Mono to them in 150 bc for all their tech, all their gold, and meager gpt. It is my understanding that breaking the deal where they pay us does not affect our reputation with others.

 

[Niklas]

Correct, as long as we don't break a deal where we are paying, our reputation will stay intact.

WarDance, thanks for the great spoiler!

 

[Niklas]

There, Aztecs go to space and I can concentrate on more important matters again.

WarDance, any news? I'm dying to hear how you trampled the greasy guys into dust. Or perhaps I'll be dying if I don't hear it.

I just realized that the scheduled date for the palace jump is actually already at the next turnset switch. Which means getting Athens up to shape is really the next crucial step. Is our worker force ready for their task? Not at home so I can't look at that save...

 

[WarDance]

It is 90AD. Athens and Sparta have been captured. The attack on Corinth has stalled so I am diverting horses that direction. We have Theology and are researching Education. Look for the save and log later.

 

[Niklas]

Great news!
Just be sure to keep enough units near Athens to be able to retake it if it flips. And no making peace until we have the palace safely jumped!

 

[WarDance]

Turns are finished. We've taken all four of our intended Greek targets, but they are building a wonder in Delphi now. Does that influence what cities they will give up in a peace deal? They're ready to talk and will give a couple towns but not Delphi. I don't have time to do much of the log right now but will do it sometime today. Anyone itching to look at the save can do so here .

If you look at the save you will notice an insane amount of specialists. I've been struggling to keep the tech pace up and war weariness is starting to effect our core cities. On this last turn before the save I made some specialists just to keep towns from rioting. We can decide as a group whether to raise the entertainment rate and lower science, or keep the specialists in place. We need markets badly in those core towns. Both for commerce and for happy faces.

It may be high time to disband our archers and warriors. Maybe even the cats. We have a monopoly on Theology right now. There isn't a lot out there to trade for though. We can get a lux from the Vikings probably, but if we are going to mess with them next that would create a problem. The FP has 5 more turns til completion. It needs 30 shields, and only does 6 per turn. Jumping the palace before it finishes will turn it into a 1 shield town I'd bet, causing a serious delay. Athens has been starved down to size 1 and there are workers moving up there to join and improve tiles.

Syracuse has a temporary respite from Barb horses and would be able to rush a spear for 36 gold. To do that though and keep the tech pace up we would need to sell Theology. Theology will net us 130 gold or thereabouts. But on the other hand it might be better to hold onto Theology and hope that the wonder cascade will finish before Invention is available.

Sorry I don't have time to do my log at the moment. Need to eat some lunch and pick up my son from school.

 

[Niklas]

I had a quick look at the save, but I gotta get to bed soon. Looking really good for what I see, too bad about Delphi and Argos though. We'll need to discuss how to proceed with that. Anyway, well played WarDance!

Some things I see are that we have enough workers to get Athens up to shape, and that Rome will give us Furs for access to our 3 luxuries.

 

[The Adjudicator]

I was looking a the SGOTM results page, and it seems a number of teams have managed to get off of the continent. It looks like there is a break point where teams finish off China and Greece, then some continue to gain territory. In pareticular, Klarius and Wacken jump off the scale. Do we know how much territory there is on our contient? Or how much there is in total?

 

[zyxy]

Slowly the world is turning blue....

Some random thoughts:

• We really want Herakleia, Plebos Nexia, and Delphi or Argos from Greece, to get a city on as many islands as possible. He will give up the first two together with one worker and some gold, but Delphi and Argos are in "doubt" phase. We could actually take Knossos and Pharsalos, provided the palace then jumps to Delphi, Argos or Mycenae. Perhaps that would push him over the edge.
• Rome will give furs + 13 gpt + 70 + WM for theology, Japan 50+WM. Not a lot for a 1000-value tech, although the lux is nice. (We can also get the lux in a one-lux-for-many-luxes deal.) Nobody else has decent cash, or luxes. We can sell some luxes too, and perhaps we should if our trade routes are safe. Also we can sell our WM for some change.
• Athens can do 15 spt (before corruption, probably loses 1) at size 8, using 2 mined wines, 2 mined bg's, 4 mined plains/forests. Every additional citizen adds 1 spt. It will need culture expansion. Palace will give it 10 turns after the jump, not really good. Perhaps we can get the lib in Memphis done sooner? With 2 chops, disbanding some archers, spears and cats we shoudl be able to get 40-50 shields without problem.
• We can build another town two tiles N of Memphis, and perhaps one W-NW of Sparta and one 2 N of Delphi. All are first ring, the last two are rather tight. (But Delphi could be moved one tile S).
• Let's not jump the palace before the FP is done.
• Completely agree on markets. Perhaps some of the southernmost cities should do courts first, while they still have good production. Adjanta for example will get 50% waste after the jump, now is 17%.
• Richmond and Thermo can switch to lib, they'll be rank 1 soon. Good call on all the other libs, better than cats . Factory in Durkzington is off.
• Seems China gained a city. Too bad, we'll have to beat them up again .... I suggest we take Beijing (for the Great Wall) and sue for peace in exchange for the island town. Can also use the gift trick again.

 

[Methos]

-I noticed we lost Xinjian. Was it due to a cultural flip?
-Many of the 1 and 2 size cities don’t need to be on specialist. When I put them to working tiles I either got a happy face or neutral. I went through and the majority of these cities we’re all able to work tiles without suffering from unhappiness. The problem I found was due to corruption we actually make less gold working the land.

I’m curios, if we took Knossos would their capitol jump to Pharsalos? That should be enough for them to give up Delphi.

 

[WarDance]

Exactly right, Methos. The little towns have had scientists and taxmen to help with research and the economy. And yes, Xinjan flipped. I was rather irritated by that but I kind of knew it might be coming.

Starting my turn log now.

Turnlog: 50BC to 150AD

Preliminary: Following the notes I've made from the team's suggestions I begin moving any units I can north. Horses move towards Athens, archers and cats towards Corinth. Send a couple workers towards Athens to road the forest just south of it. Tantooine moves one citizen to the mined desert, giving it 10spt. Mess around a bit with the scientists and taxmen. Theology in 7 turns at -3gpt. Never have I messed around with scientists and taxmen as much as I did in these 10 turns.

IBT: Syracuse sacked for 2 coins. Philedancia: horse-->horse ( I really did a poor job of noting what towns built what and all that business, sorry)

Turn 1) 30 BC: units moving into position. Nothing exciting.

IBT: Barb horse attacks spear in Tatung and dies.

Turn 2) 10 BC: Not much happening. Just moving military and workers.

IBT: Rome asks for world map +2 gold. No thanks. Syracuse sacked for 2. Some horses built in the south. Was lazy and didn't write down which towns.

Turn 3) 10 AD: Gearing up for battle. Theology is in 4 turns at -3gpt. Mess around with scientists and taxmen. Switch science down to 40%. Change lots of taxmen to scientists. Theology in 4 at +13gpt.

IBT: Syracuse sacked yet again. 2 coins. I don't know if everyone knows this... you probably do. But just in case you didn't, when barbs pillage a town and make off with gold, your treasury is divided by the number of towns you have, and that's how much gold they get.

Turn 4) 30 AD: Sell monotheism to the Viks for 33 coins +map. Rush spear in Byzantium for 60 gold.

IBT: Syracuse sacked again. Can't get a break from the horses to rush a spear. I would hate to spend what little coin we have to cash rush something and then have it pillaged.

Turn 5) 50 AD: Road to Athens should be done next turn. Greece is still building 3 wonders. Declare war.

Athens: 2 vet horses die flawlessly. vet hoplite now elite. I'm already discouraged.
vet horse kills elite hoplite! promoted to elite, 4/5
vet horse kills vet hoplite, promoted and now 2/5
vet horse kills vet hoplite, now 1/4... Athens is captured! Athens has its barracks and harbor intact, along with the Collossus. Athens is now size 5. All horses move in to quell resistance and await the counter attack. My discouragement passes

Units south of Corinth hold position. I mis-keyed an archer and a cat so they will be a turn late. I sent one token horseman to join them though, and he steps quickly across the border, captures a worker, and steps back.

IBT: Syracuse sacked. Barb horse dies on spear of Tatung's defender. Resistance in Athens ends.

Turn 6) 70 AD: 13 horses move towards Sparta. 3 wounded horses stay behind near Athens in case it flips. Stack moves on Corinth.

IBT: Theology complete. Education in 14 at +7gpt.

Turn 7) 90 AD: Corinth: 2 cats miss. 2 reduce population to size 2. vet horse dies to vet hoplite flawlessly
vet archer kills vet hoplite, now 2/4
vet archer dies flawlessly to reg hoplite
vet archer dies to reg hoplite, hoplite promoted to 2/4
vet archer dies to hoplite, hoplite now elite and 3/5
At this rate I have no confidence my remaining archers can take Corinth. They hold position.

Sparta: vet horse retreats from reg hoplite, hoplite 2/3
vet horse dies to 2/3 hoplite.
bugger. mis-key next horse.
vet horse kills 2/3 hoplite, now 2/4 and Sparta is captured! Only one defender? Makes me wonder about Corinth. Decide to wait anyway.

Move 5 horses to assist at Corinth, just in case. 5 horses MP in Sparta. (In retrospect, I don't know what I was thinking when I went at Corinth. If I could see the hoplite when he was 2/4, it would mean there are no other hoplites in there. Sure there could be a warrior or an archer in there, too, but with only one defender in Sparta... I should have been bolder and gone for it)

Now I'm really messing around with specialists and the slider. With science at 40% and all specialists scientists, we get education in 13 turns at +9gpt.
Science to 50% gives 9 turns at -29 gpt. Switch scientists to taxmen, 11 turns at -3gpt. Sell monotheism to China for map +35.

IBT: Syracuse sacked. Tatung spearman defends vs. barb horse, now 1/3. Greek MI heads south from Knossos towards Sparta. Education in 11 turns at -9gpt. Bah.

Turn 8) 110 AD: Corinth: Cat reduces city to size 1. Other 3 miss. vet horse dies to elite hoplite, hoplite now 2/5.
vet archer kills elite hoplite and Corinth is ours!

vet horse retreats from reg MI, MI now 2/3
vet horse kills MI, now 2/4. Sees another MI on mountain 2NE of iron. Horse realizes he will be sacrificed

Tweak scientists and taxmen. 10 turns at -3gpt. Rush archer in Tatung to go exploring.

IBT: China asks to renew our ROP. No thanks. We might be going to war against you soon and breaking an ROP would make us look bad. Xinjian flips! Ha! Bummer. Good thing I didn't renew the ROP. It may be time to boot China. Had one archer there but that's all. Greeks start building the Great Library in Delphi. Syracuse sacked. MI attacks wounded horse and horse retreats! Way to go, horsie!

Turn 9) 130 AD: Thermopylae: vet horse retreats from reg hoplite, hoplite full strength.
vet horse retreats, no damage to hoplite again.
vet horse kills reg hoplite, now 3/4
vet horse dies to reg hoplite, hoplite now 1/3
vet horse kills 1/3 hoplite, Thermopylae taken with 1 worker.

Try to set up the MI for an elite win. vet horse retreats from MI, no damage.
vet horse dies to MI, MI now 2/3
Go elite horsie! 4/5 horse retreats from MI. bah.

Abandon St Louis and build Richmond 1 SE to be at dist 5 from Athens. Education in 9 turns at -1gpt. Greeks are willing to talk. They'll give Mycenae and Herakleia +a worker.

IBT: 2/3 MI attacks spear in Sparta. 3/3 spear defends, now 1/3.
Japan build the Great Library.

Turn 10) 150AD: Not much. just getting things ready for the next player. Core cities will riot without higher entertainment slider or specialists. Make scientists and taxmen to keep research up. Lots of units left with movement. Athens down to size 1 and ready for workers to join. Workers moving up to improve tiles around Athens and increase pop. Couple workers moving to build road to Corinth.

Some jungle towns were building some things that we really don't need at this point. Things like archers, catapults, barracks. They get changed to libraries and courts, but feel free to change them to a different build. There is one settler near Athens, one fortified in Durkzington ready to rebuild after the jump, and one near the Dye City.

Education is in 9 turns at -1gpt.

 

[Niklas]

Gah, I'm having computer problems. My 'puter keeps restarting on me, don't know why, can't find a virus.

Anyway, I'm now at home and can look at the save, hopefully the stupid thing has decided to play nice now (it's been up for a while this time).

Operation Grease:
Good going with the military actions WarDance, their defense was truly pathetic! I think we should press on and take Knossos as well, and as zyxy said hoping that doing so will release Delphi or Argos for us. I believe the capitol would jump to Plebos Nexia, which is not a good thing, but if Argos or Delphi were to grow before we take Knossos things will be different. Argos has the best location (3 towns within the 8 tile radius), but if one of the others has lots of troops in it then that could make the difference. I think we should gather horses in/next to Sparta, and as soon as Delphi or Argos grows we take Knossos.
In the peace deal IMO we want, in order; Delphi, Argos, Herakleia, Plebos Nexia, Mycenae, Pharsalos. Since they will already give us Herakleia and Plebos Nexia, only Delphi or Argos would improve that. No peace until we jumped the palace though!

The New Core:
I count 6 workers (and eqWorkers) of our own people around Athens, down to the one near Dallas. There is also a settler right outside, and one coming up from the south (currently near Dye City) that will be there just in time. That is really more than we need, so I suggest we take the settler outside Athens and use it for a ring-5 town on one of the two locations suggested by zyxy. I think we should settle both of them, i.e. 2N of Memphis and W-NW of Sparta, if things become crowded we can always abandon one later.
According to CAII we need 25 more "points" in Athens, joining 6 workers and 1 settler will produce 24 of those. We have enough units to add a few extra just to get over the margin, I don't trust CAII completely and we have nothing to lose (whereas a capitol in the FP town would be a disaster).
If possible we should rush a library in Athens asap, the start on a Copernicus prebuild.

Research and trade:
Since none of our opponents have gotten Theo yet, I believe we can relent on the research of Education slightly if need be. The important thing is that we get to it first, so that we can sell it for good profit. We could use some cash for rushing a few things in various places.
If we could get those furs we could probably turn the lux slider down a notch, as would a peace deal to remove war weariness. But as long as we benefit from it on the whole, I don't mind letting our larger towns employing a specialist or two.
I think we should trade away Theo right away, the furs and the gpt from Rome are too good to pass up on. Also, we should sell it to Japan, simply because they have the Great Library now and would get it anyway. Might as well make them pay a bit for it.
I also see Japan has lots of Ivory that it not yet connected, but that looks like it will be in a near future. We will hopefully be able to trade for it using our own luxuries, 3 for 1.

Operation Trim That Beard (gotta love that name ):
Once we let Grease off the hook, we should be ready for the next operation. I assume we should try The Roman Trick again?
We have to be careful though, since we will have a new capitol it means our trade routes will be different. Athens has a harbor of its own, but if we should end up at war with Greece again they might actually block our trade routes (until we get Astro that is) if we rely on that harbor alone.
If we trade away dyes to someone, we must retain Hangchow this time. We could gift away LA, Cincinnati, Kansas City (let it grow), Buffalo, Baltimore, New Orleans, Canton and Corinth. All other towns will be either too productive (like Chengdu, Detroit), or too small with too little growth (Denver, Dallas, San Diego). Once the palace has been jumped we could put our troops into position immediately, I reckon maybe three turns to get them all in place, so 280 or 290 AD sounds to me like a good B-day (where B is for Beard).
One problem is that Ragnar has his towns well together, so the risk of a flip back to him would be large whatever towns we would get from a deal with him. We could hope to get Jönköping for a hold on that island, and possibly London and Norrköping in the jungle. Kalmar would be really neat, but with the wool in the radius I doubt he will release it (and being so close to Nidaros, I doubt we could keep it from flips).

Some MMing notes:
I think a lot of towns in the old core would do well to switch from Marketplaces to Courthouses, otherwise they'll soon find themselves without production or research capabilities at all.
Durkzington should rush a settler on the last turn, so that we can quickly resettle. We might want to join a couple of workers there as well to get back in the business quickly. New Durkzington should go for a library.

 

[Niklas]

The roster:

Niklas - On Deck!
Methos -
The Adjudicator -
WarDance - Just Played
zyxy - UP!
Durkz - away

 

[zyxy]

Got it, but will wait a bit for more discussion. Here's some ideas for the next ten turns and beyond, as well as comments on Niklas' post. Please discuss.

Operation Grease

If the Greek palace jumps to Plebos (and it could well be, Knossos and Pharsalos are biggest), then that would defeat the purpose: I think our overriding goal should be to get a city on every single island.
Alex will give currently give Herakleia and Plebos Nexia. Perhaps we accept those, and come back for Knossos in 20 turns? Big downside: sparta flip risk is and remains high.

Athens

By adding 6 workers and 1 settler to Athens, and by letting it grow once, it can become size 10 in 4 turns. I think it can be brought to size 12 by bringing up two more workers, it would make 19 spt, 48 gpt (before corruption) and 0 food surplus by working 2 mined wines, 2 irrigated bg's (on river), 1 mined river grass, 1 irrigated river plain, 1 mined river plain, 1 mined plain, and 4 roaded forests. A 20% lux tax and 3 luxes would give at least 11 happy faces, with the free one that makes 6 happy, 6 unhappy.
If I understand it correctly, the palace will jump to the town with the most points scored as follows:
- 3 points per own citizen
- 1 point per foreign citizen
- 1 point per town within walking distance 9
- 2 points per city within 8
- 3 points per metro within 8
- 1 point per unit
So at size 10 Athens would score 3*9 + 1 + 11 + garrison = 39 + garrison.
New Yurkz would score 3*8 + 11 = 35 (currently 36 because capital still exists), all towns S of Yurkz score less, zyxco 3*6 + 16 = 34, Dye City 3*5 + 19 = 34, all others should get less. These scores rise by 1 if we get Herakleia and Plebos. I don't get exactly the same as CivAssist, maybe I'm counting wrong. In any case, 5 units or so in Athens will do the trick, I'll move warriors over. I agree on rushing a library in Athens, it will give culture and help with research. There's a slight flip risk though.

Operation Trim that Beard!

Agree with objectives as stated by Niklas: Kalmar and one city on Northern Vik island. As for Kalmar: we could rush two warriors and place them on the hills, then abandon the town. Then Ragnar needs to bring out the berserks to get that island back.
A lot of the listed cities have around 20 shields invested. To salvage some, I could switch them to archers or so and disband these somewhere. Other gift cities are Sparta, Thermo (after downsizing) and Chengdu, if we start before or shortly after the palace jump.
EDIT: could start as soon as we no longer have towns to take from Greece. Vik now have Feud, so we should hurry.

Operation Beachboy

War on China, objective Beijing. Motivation: Relieve cultural pressure from Beijing on Canton and Chengdu, get Chinese island town Tientsin, get GWall (Industrious) for GA.
We could use the gift trick to entice China to give up Tientsin. Candidate gift towns are same as above, except for the former Chinese ones (they would autoraze).
EDIT: could start right after Viking operation, perhaps even during.
Name of the operation is based on a quote from Mao (in the game): "Lending money to you is like shovelling sand into the ocean. All you get for yor trouble is a bad sunburn and sand in your shorts."

Trade

Can sell WM for cash. Can sell 3 luxes to Rome for lux + 6 gpt. Or can sell Theology for some cash (130 + 13 gpt = 390) and 1 lux. Not much really. Opinions?

Settling

I suggest 2 N of Memphis, and 2 N of Kansas. We can build one or two towns near Beijing, and that's it probably. W-NW of Sparta is on the wines. Do we want to settle there?

Micromanagement

• Durkzington will build settlers/workers. No need to keep pop up.
• I am tempted to rush worker in Sparta, later also in Thermo. They will be free of upkeep. Some troops will need to quell resistance in Thermo.
• Richmond can switch to lib.
• Memphis will be productive, and so it should grow. Also Chengdu, Canton, perhaps after Trim that Beard!
• Methoston and Adjanta (51% waste after jump), Philadancia and Nicago (35%) will build court before market.
• New Orleans is losing food.
• There are horses fortified in Houston, LA, Nicago, Phila.

 

[Niklas]

Operation Grease:
I'll repeat myself, but regarding Knossos, I think we should take it as soon as there is a pop-2 town on the island outside, either Delphi or Argos. Their capitol would most likely end up there, but if the worst should happen and it would end up in Plebos Nexia, why that's what allies are for, right?

The suggested town on the wines should be done IMO. It will give us iron immediately, and we could use Maces to go after Beijing. It will also give us more wines to trade away for gpt. It could be temporary only, we could start it on a settler immediately and abandon the site when the settler is ready, by then Sparta and Thermopylae should have expanded borders.

Operation Beachboy:
Regarding Beijing, we clearly want it. It is the key to our GA, which we want to trigger with Copernicus. But I think it will be a hard nut to crack. A spear on a hill is the same as a hoplite, and those went down quickly, but I fear Mao is a lot more paranoid. I believe I saw at least three rushings of spears during my last turnset (i.e. the advisor told me Beijing was now building GLib, three turns in a row). We can't use catapults to bombard since we might hit the GWall.
Guessing at 6 vet spears, that means 26 horses to get above 90% win chance. With 7 defenders that goes up to 30 horses, and for 8 defenders we need 33 horses. In comparison it would take 18 Maces to go after those 8 spears with >90% chance of winning.

Trade:
I say sell off the Theology now. If we wait until someone else gets it we won't get even that much for it. And the 13gpt and furs would allow us to go a lot faster towards Education. Besides, spreading techs is not a bad thing in itself, we want the AI to help us research critical techs after all.

 

[WarDance]

Do you really think there are that many defenders in Beijing? How much would it cost to investigate the city? Also, can you really take out a wonder with artillery? I didn't think that was possible.