SGOTM8 - Own

[Andronicus]

Deal. If we turn out to be wrong, we all have to type "Listen to Symphony D. from now on" 10 times .

Unfortunately if the pro-Republic forces are wrong it will be too late by then

I do concede some merit to monarchy, but my overall feeling is building units early we pay for upkeep not needed till later whilst sacrificing speed. There are 2 reasons I would like to get to advanced flight early.
1) our enemies will hopefully be less advanced
2) this is a compitition measured only by win date - the earlier the better

Having said all that I believe we have other team members yet to come on line - I would be keen to hear their opinions before committing one way or the other

 

[Own]

Let's get a roster order first.

Andronicus- You're up first when the saves are available.
IstariAsuka
Symphony D.
Own
stagnate
Abeqweit
voe

 

[Abegweit]

Hi all.

Abegweit checking in for duty. Sorry but to be late but I was away for the weekend (it was a long one here) and just got back.

Some comments about the early game (e.g. pre-helis):

1. The plan has to be to research like mad. That means a beeline for Republic and plenty of libs. We seem to agree on this. Libs before markets?

2. I think we should try for the slingshot. In my experience, I almost always get it on Emperor. This is even more likely on an archipelago map. I'm not sure what difference the contact trading mod may have on this though. One thing: this decision doesn't have to be made immediately though. I suggest that we beeline for writing. At that point we decide - as a team - about whether to go for CoL or Philosophy next. If we go the latter route, we should take the most expensive tech available although, because of the AIs research priorities, currency is probably better than construction.

3. I agree about the CxxxC spacing. This game will enter its critical phase well after hospitals and we want big powerful cities. We will ICS outside the core, natch. A final decision on spacing should await exploration. It is possible, for example, that we have some friends on our little island.

4. I disagree strongly with the notion of stockpiling units. That costs gpt, which should go into research. Upgrading is expensive in C3C as well, even with Leo's. Our big industrial age cities should be able to crank out the units when the time comes.

5. Re Wonders: the only essential ones are the ToE/Hoover pair. Although this does bring up another question: how do we plan on getting our GA? Anybody know what wonders are exp/ind?

6. Re start position. I tend to favour the plains square (it's close between the plains and desert) but the plains has two advantages. First, as Andronicus noted, it's on the ocean. Secondly, and I think more important, it gets immediate access to the lamb. With that - and an early forest chop - we can get a granary up real quick. The advantage of the desert is obvious enough, but it doesn't come into play until sometime into the Middle Ages and will be largely obviated by railroads. Cranking out early settlers and workers is more important IMO.

 

[Own]

Libs before markets?

I think that's a good idea.

 

[IstariAsuka]

1. The plan has to be to research like mad. That means a beeline for Republic and plenty of libs. We seem to agree on this. Libs before markets?

Libraries before markets would be smart, I'm thinking.

2. I think we should try for the slingshot. In my experience, I almost always get it on Emperor. This is even more likely on an archipelago map. I'm not sure what difference the contact trading mod may have on this though. One thing: this decision doesn't have to be made immediately though. I suggest that we beeline for writing. At that point we decide - as a team - about whether to go for CoL or Philosophy next. If we go the latter route, we should take the most expensive tech available although, because of the AIs research priorities, currency is probably better than construction.

Agreed--we should definately make towards writing. Then, if we don't think we can make the slingshot in time, we should just get philosophy before CoL. In fact, if we can't make the slingshot but really really want republic a little faster (which would be good), we could at the worst pop CoL with philosophy.

4. I disagree strongly with the notion of stockpiling units. That costs gpt, which should go into research. Upgrading is expensive in C3C as well, even with Leo's. Our big industrial age cities should be able to crank out the units when the time comes.

Well, it's not really feasible to stockpile units as a republic, but as a monarchy it would have worked. But I guess we're going the republic route, so it's a moot point.

5. Re Wonders: the only essential ones are the ToE/Hoover pair. Although this does bring up another question: how do we plan on getting our GA? Anybody know what wonders are exp/ind?

GA will be tricky, especially if we succeed in getting there before they hit flight. However, if we can pull that off, I'm not sure a GA would be overly important to our success. By the time we could use an F-15 to initiate it we should already have an entire army busily invading their continents. As for wonders, seti is expansionist, hanging gardens is industrious, hoover dam is industrious, copernicus is expansionist... Do wonders trigger a GA if they only have ONE trait associated with them? Since there are no wonders that are both industrious and expansionist, but those are one OR the other (with no other traits, just that 1). If they do trigger a GA, then copernicus or hoover dam are possibilities for when the time comes.

6. Re start position. I tend to favour the plains square (it's close between the plains and desert) but the plains has two advantages. First, as Andronicus noted, it's on the ocean. Secondly, and I think more important, it gets immediate access to the lamb. With that - and an early forest chop - we can get a granary up real quick. The advantage of the desert is obvious enough, but it doesn't come into play until sometime into the Middle Ages and will be largely obviated by railroads. Cranking out early settlers and workers is more important IMO.

I similarly like the plains square the best. What bonuses does the lamb give? Anyways, we need to get out some cities as fast as possible.

 

[Abegweit]

Lambs: +2 food

As for wonders, the rule is that if you own wonders with your civ's traits when you build any wonder you will trigger your GA. You can conquer wonders to satisfy one or both of the traits requirement. We could, for example, conquer the Gardens and then build Copernicus. Or conquer both and then build something else. Or build them both. We are not likely to conquer any wonders in this variant so, if we want a GA, we will have to build them.

Here is the complete list (I looked it up):

Expansionist: SETI, Lighthouse, Colossus, Copernicus, Magellan's
Industrious: Great Wall, Gardens, Pyramids, Hoover, Manhattan

The choices appear to be:

Colossus-Gardens. Well-timed and both wonders are useful. I am reluctant to devote early shields to a wonder (Colossus) though. Furthermore Monarchy is a useless tech, although we could certainly trade for it. If we try this route, the plains square is clearly the best.

Gardens-Copernicus. A bit late but not tooo much and both wonders are useful.

Copernicus-Hoover. Clearly late but we should have no trouble achieving it and it will be useful for that last burst of speed towards flight and ... .

A final choice would be to build the Colossus, hoping to get the Gardens. If we fail on the Gardens, that makes just one more reason to make sure we get Hoover's.

I suggest trying an attempt at HG-Nic if the opportunity arises to build the Gardens. If we don't manage this, we should absolutely make sure to get Nic-Hoover.

Edit: in either the Colossus-Gardens or Gardens-Nic variants, the GW is a decent backup if we fail to get the Gardens. It is even more useless than ever in this variant but that's beside the point.

 

[Own]

I want a late GA from internet or the F-15. More fun that way.

 

[stagnate]

Checking in.

One thought that I had, that might not be viable, is to allow the AI to settle on our island, and then attack them, hoping to get a remote city and foothold to make some earlier conquest. If the AI doesn't settle quick enough we also have the option of gifting them a couple of cities and then conquering them (probably need 2-3 to be able to get a city in return).

If we are in republic we can rush military even in an unproductive location, and make good progress.

The downside is that before maps we won't be able to tell what cities we want to get (bigger islands better, 1 hop islands worthless).

Also, even if we don't use the remote locations to start pressing war, we can have them ready as footholds when we go to war. Being able to have an airport and drop in 6-10 tanks when we get flight will be great, and no need to research advanced flight per se.

Viable? I'll be reading back about other strategy options and taking a look at the save tonight.

 

[IstariAsuka]

Stagnate:

I have thought of something similar to this idea. The problem is that the AI sucks at archipelago, and probably won't settle in our lands at all if they didn't start there. We may never even see one of their boats until we're prepping to invade them. Therefore, making contact with them may be very difficult, unless one or two of them prove to be seafaring (I would judge this to be fairly likely). If we DO make contact with them early, then yes, I rather like your idea (though we'd want to build some cities for the express purpose of gifting... we wouldn't want to give any good cities to the AI!).

We could also possibly leave any AI on our island with one city, in the hopes we can buy communications with other AIs from them come the end of the MA (presuming we've seen them build a boat or two). This, however, seems like a dumb idea.

It seems this would be rather much easier to do in PTW, where we could (fairly likely) garner contact with all of the other AIs easily enough before finishing off the one(s) near us. But such is life.

 

[Own]

That's a great idea, but the only problem is that the only units we'll have to invade will be 1 or 2 that the corrupted town we get can produce. Maybe if we had enough cash we could rush as army in there...

 

[Andronicus]

OK some more thoughts for initial progress

Research - do I conclude we have maj consensus we go for writing aiming for rep slingshot, but being prepared for phil -> something else (? libs) if appears unlikely. ? at max research. What effect do we assume early contact trading may have on AI research (ie trading contacts will be avail with writing)?

Settle option - the advice for settling on plains appears sound as it allows earlier usage of our most valuable square

Build orders - ? early granary -> farmer's gambit / ? 2nd worker / ? warrior for MP / ? 2nd scout - any thoughts?


re GA - I believe we should aim for wonder generated GA - Gardens and Copernicus or Hoover and Copern. appear reasonable options.
I dont hold absolute confidence in getting Gardens @ emporer level.
A Hoover induced GA could be great for kick starting tank production if research MT after atomic / electronics (hopefully from ToE), then rapid research through to flight when switch to airports / bombers, completing our GA research with adv flight and ready to invade - this also means no need to research monarchy.

 

[Andronicus]

Note early contact trading and map trading
as per game thread notice - Alan H:

Additional change:
- C3C will use the same contact and map trading rules as Classic. Contacts can be traded between two civs when one of them knows Writing. Maps can be traded between two civs when one of them knows MapMaking.

 

[IstariAsuka]

Note early contact trading and map trading
as per game thread notice - Alan H:

Additional change:
- C3C will use the same contact and map trading rules as Classic. Contacts can be traded between two civs when one of them knows Writing. Maps can be traded between two civs when one of them knows MapMaking.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about that in my earlier post.

If we are able to make contact with foreign AIs relatively early in the game, it seems that it would be a good idea to try for a city gifting gambit to get ourselves positioned on their island(s). This would, at worst, save a little time later in the game, and at best provide a base for early military conquest of at least some of the AIs. If we got some decent footholds, it could be worthwhile to slow research somewhat in order to amass money for unit-rushing, to take over their lands early (Middle Ages). If/when these wars stall, we could at worst purchase any techs we've missed, and throttle back up to full research capacity.

 

[Own]

I think we could conquer the world like this. We need a TON of cash, though, but I think it's feasible. Hopefully we can get 2-3 cities on their island for faster cash rushing. We still will need relatively superior military, as we will be greatly outnumbered.


Let's give this a shot. I don't think we can beat Team Obormot or Team klarius if we try the way most everyone else will try, who knows, it may work.

 

[stagnate]

I think we don't want to try this until we have Knights, so I think the initial turns will be pretty straightforward. When we hit MA we can evaluate based on contacts, probably put down 2-3 small cities for trade purposes, and go.

The biggest concern will be getting good position with a city or two. I think it'll be hard to get more than 1 city, but with enough cash and on-par or ahead tech we can fight small wars (possibly try to get placed on 2-3 islands, then wait for calvary to push.

Initial turns (IMO of course
Settle 1 south. We need production, so split the FP between the capital and another city.
Build Scout, Worker, Warrior, Granary

We want 2 scouts to explore. If we are alone on the island we only barely need to worry about military against barbs. We want to irrigate the plains in order to get decent food/production rates, so I think that extra worker early is important.

Research towards slingshot (I think we can make repub, but evaluate when the time comes).

 

[voe]

hi, reporting for duty. I will start reading your ideas and hopefully will have something usefull to add after that.

 

[Own]

If research towards rep 100% is 40-50 turns, switch to minimal research to help our cash buildup. If we had the GL :mischeif: we could build up a ton of cash for unit buying on the other continent.

 

[Abegweit]

Doing well in this game will be all about getting to Republic as fast as possible and then achieving 4-turn research throughout the MA and IA.

Assuming that everyone is in close contact like they were in SGOTM7 (it's hard to see how a helicopter-conquest could be possible if they weren't), the contact-trading mod will speed up the tech pace once writing is learned anywhere. This is not necessarily a bad thing and may actually make it easier to achieve goal #1. It will definitely make goal #2 easier.

There is a second Republic Slingshot which is trickier to manage but even more rewarding if we can pull it off. It works this way: Research Philosophy immediately after Writing. Next enter the Big Picture and trade by hook or by crook for Code of Laws. THEN take Republic as your free tech. We can even delay getting Philo until CoL is known. All this is dangerous, of course, but the rewards are great.

This trick can also is used to get Monarchy. Trade for Polytheism instead of CoL. Even though we don't want to use be Monarchs, we should definitely take the tech if the opportunity arises It's great for trading and gets us closer to Gardens too. Of course, Republic is to be preferred if both are available.

WRT goal #2, there are two ways to speed this up.

First we need a GA and we need it early. We have to get those Lib, Unis, Markets and Banks up ASAP. That's what a GA is for. Since we can't get it from our UU, we will have to get it from wonders. Colossus-Gardens would be best, but it's doubtful that we can afford to devote our energies to building the Big Statue. However, it is a decision which can be put off for a couple of turn sets and we should build on the plains square in order to retain the option. Secondary choices are Gardens-Cop, Colossus-GW and GW-Cop in roughly that order of desirability.

Secondly, we need the AI to help us research. This means that our Rep is golden. Do not break it. Avoid wars as far as possible. We want the AI to be paying us GPT for tech.

I think Stagnate's idea of allowing the AI to build on our lands is interesting. However I don't see how beating it up for garbage cities, which we then have to pay gold to defend, is in our interest. Beating it up for tech is a different story. That's worthwhile. OTOH, it's probably better to be friends with everyone and keep them happy giving us their GPT. This also is a decision which can wait.

 

[Abegweit]

We should not cash-rush units. Cash is for research and building maintenance, not units.

In a way, this game is a bit like 100K. In a 100K, you ignore culture at the beginning completely, going hell-bent for conquest. It's only after you conquer the world that you fill it up with temples and libraries and other stuff.

This game is like that. The initial objective is not conquest but research. We should not think about conquest at all (unless we share this island) until we get to flight. After that, we rip through one AI after another.

In view of this, we have no need for knights (or even cavs), except to defend our own lands. Each coastal town should get one up-to-date defender to prevent the AI from getting ideas. Add in a few mobile troops to take out any landers and that's enough.

For the same reason, we should definitely not research either Chivalry or Military Tradition. Those are optional techs and we need to make a beeline straight to Flight. The only optional techs we want are Republic (for the government) and Monarchy (for the Gardens). At some point we will want to trade for these techs in order to get the units, but there certainly is no rush to do it.

 

[Own]

I think it's the consensus to try this gambit:
Build up a military. Gift most of our cities to an AI. We then take them back, and get a couple cities on their island for peace. That's our foothold, and we can cash-rush units there. This may be a great idea, it might not, but we aren't gonna take the laurel from Team klarius or Team Obormot if we go the way they do. It's a crazy idea, just crazy enough to work.

So we do need cash to rush units, those cities on the other continent will be making 1 shield and one gold. I'm going to run a test game of this variant right now.