SGOTM8 - Own

[Abegweit]

That's a completely different game from the one we have been talking about so far. You'll want markets instead of libs. Leo's would also be useful (disconnect resources and upgrade). T'would be better to be playing vanilla too.

Go for it and let us know what happens... You might try it on SGOTM7. I think this map will be similar to that one. The concept is heli-conquest after all.

Edit: I suspect you'll get bogged down after the first AI or two but I'm certainly willing to be proved wrong. It would be a neat coup if it can be pulled off. The contact and map-trading rule changes will help you. I'm sure know this but... make sure you get those little island cities.

 

[Own]

I couldn't try a test game, because-
A) Map was hand-built.
B) Always had an opponent on my island
C) Very boring

And, a test game is sorta cheating isn't it?

 

[Andronicus]

Re gaining cities on other islands in peace deal
I doubt we are the only team discussing this. The main benefit would be a ready made launching pad for invasion.
There are a number of obstacles which require thought before committing valuable commerce resources
Any city obtained in peace treaty which is on 1 or 2 tile isle is a gain as this is 1 less site to have to search for later and can likely be defended by 1 or 2 warriors blocking access
If on a countries main isle, then we will be at risk of attack after 20 turns (will we commit to cash rushing 2 defenders, also ? harbour, ? barracks) or even flipping. It is unlikely we could afford cash rushing an army to take the main isle of any civ unless they were very weak (eg 4 cavs v spears). This would all be very expensive and slow our progress to advanced flight and D-Day. Perhaps a more beneficial strat would be to gift that city to the strongest AI -> they will be happier with us -> more trade options so we can bleed them dry and they will likely be attacked -> counter attack on weaker civs isle - not usually sccessful by AI. It is in our interests for the AIs to war between themselves whilst trading with us.

 

[IstariAsuka]

First of all, it is fairly doubtful that we'd get a 1-2 tile island city. Most of their cities will be on their mainland. The probability that we get such a useless city is very low.

In fact,I think you're incorrect that getting such a city would be a good thing, since we'd easily get that city for peace before killing the AI during our flight invasion. Anyways, the chances are low, so it's not something I think we need to worry about.

Also, Andronicus, it seems that most of us, if we are able to get some footholds on enemy lands, are willing to slow down our tech pace in order to build up cash and rush an army. If we can get just 1 city we can rush units every other turn for a fairly cheap price. Rushing every other turn easily allows us to still research at a decent clip. If we can manage 2 cities on an island, then we could rush a unit every turn for a decent price--quite quickly building up an army capable of smashing the AI.

Furthermore, if there happen to be 2 AIs on an island, that works very much to our advantage. We can have one smack the other, and then after some damage has been done come in with our armies to clean up one of them, and then proceed to the other in its weakened state. This allows to kill AIs with a much smaller unit base than would otherwise be required (and it slows down their tech pace!).

Anyways, even if such wars stall after a time, if we can manage to kill some AIs it will still be well worth it in the amount of time we'll save later. It'll cost us our tech pace some, sure, but we should still have the entire IA, most-or-less, to ramp back up and beat them to flight by a goodly margin, especially since they'll have been warring the entire time (and we'll keep it that way)! I think it's definately worth a shot if we manage early enough contact with the other civs.

 

[Symphony D.]

Build up a military. Gift most of our cities to an AI. We then take them back, and get a couple cities on their island for peace. That's our foothold, and we can cash-rush units there. This may be a great idea, it might not, but we aren't gonna take the laurel from Team klarius or Team Obormot if we go the way they do. It's a crazy idea, just crazy enough to work.

The kind of cash needed for such an endeavor is going to hurt the research pace, as will the unit capacity if we're going to be cash-rushing units on enemy islands. We'll be bulking up the military (with cash) using a goverment that severely punishes having a military (by decreasing cash flow). Rather a Catch-22 situation, and it will delay our progress towards Flight rather significantly. Simultaneously, due to RNG, there's a good probability some facilities in the gifted towns will be destroyed upon recapture, further slowing us down.

That said, it is, as you say, so crazy it might just work. A side benefit will be any captured lands will essentially become specialist farms to jack up unit capacity, gold, and science. I rather like this idea as it also won't make the game a snooze-fest for 3 ages. I'm in favor of at least trying it.

Also Given the stipulation of Vanilla and PTW not being able to MGL rush a wonder before 1000 BC, I wonder if there isn't another AI on our island...

 

[IstariAsuka]

The kind of cash needed for such an endeavor is going to hurt the research pace, as will the unit capacity if we're going to be cash-rushing units on enemy islands. We'll be bulking up the military (with cash) using a goverment that severely punishes having a military (by decreasing cash flow). Rather a Catch-22 situation, and it will delay our progress towards Flight rather significantly.

If we can take out some AIs, though, it'll be worth it. Furthermore, we won't need that big of an army if we do it right... certainly not enough to really severely hurt our economy. By then our cities will be reasonably sized, affording sufficient free units, especially given that we'll likely have few workers.

Simultaneously, due to RNG, there's a good probability some facilities in the gifted towns will be destroyed upon recapture, further slowing us down.

It is my view that this would best be done by gifting cities built expressively built for gifting to the AI, built in an ICS formation. This allows easy reconquest, blockading of the cities if we need to prolong to the war in order to harass them enough to get some cities, and also means that we don't lose anything valuable. It is my opinion that we shouldn't be gifting most of our nation, just cities we build for the purpose...

That said, it is, as you say, so crazy it might just work. A side benefit will be any captured lands will essentially become specialist farms to jack up unit capacity, gold, and science. I rather like this idea as it also won't make the game a snooze-fest for 3 ages. I'm in favor of at least trying it.

Indeed, it is well worth the effort if it has a good chance of paying off.

Also Given the stipulation of Vanilla and PTW not being able to MGL rush a wonder before 1000 BC, I wonder if there isn't another AI on our island...

This whole plan works basically on that assumption, yes. We're unlikely to get contact with any other AIs early enough for this plan to work if one of them doesn't start on our island. They simply wouldn't send any boats over in time, most likely.

 

[Own]

The kind of cash needed for such an endeavor is going to hurt the research pace,

If we do this, I think we won't even need flight, we'll kill every AI like this. Even in republic, we won't have a big unit support bill.

 

[Andronicus]

I've got the save
Opened file and moved scout - have saved to give others input
2 BGs revealed accessable from desert tile -> poss 4 turn settler factory
Do I go ahead with this or settle as intended on plains so can immed access sheep - I vote former.
Its late here in Oz so I'm going to bed - will play my turns in approx 10 hours
? how many turns should I do
I await any replies

 

[Abegweit]

I'm with you. The BG is too valuable to give up.

 

[AlanH]

Also Given the stipulation of Vanilla and PTW not being able to MGL rush a wonder before 1000 BC, I wonder if there isn't another AI on our island...

This rule was introduced in the last GOTM to try to stop random leader generation giving some teams a Wonder in the early game that could skew the results by pure luck. A similar reason led to the removal of SGLs in the C3C saves for all GOTM games. It isn't specific to this game, and shouldn't be interpreted to mean anything about this game's setup.

 

[Own]

4 turn settler factory isn't possible, but we can get a 5,6 and 7 turn factory.

I say go to the dessert. 2 BGs, a hill, lose a dessert, fresh water.

 

[Abegweit]

A four-turn factory is possible at sizes 5-6 by working 2 FPs, the lambs and the two BGs. Add a plains at size 6. Shields:

Turn 1: 6 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP)
Turn 2: 8 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP) + 2 (forest)
Turn 3: 7 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP) + 1 (plains)
Turn 4: 9 = 2 (BG) + 2 (BG) + 1 (centre) + 1 (lamb) + 0 (FP) + 0 (FP) + 1 (plains) + 2 (forest)

There's a lot of work to do in order to set this up so we will probably require a second worker after the granary is finished.

Is anyone up to making a spreadsheet to figure out how to get the factory up as fast as possible? I could make a stab at it, but it won't be until I get home from work this evening (Eastern Time). If you are willing to wait for that, please open the GH immediately in case you get a worker. The worker should move to the plains this turn, I suppose.

On the subject of scouts, I see no reason to build another. We will just have this one island to survey and the one we have should finish quite quickly.

Andronicus, I'm sure you know this but just to be sure... next turn, build the city, set research to CB, open the GH and switch to Alpha. That way we make sure that, if we get a tech, it won't be the cheapest one.

 

[Own]

Oh, without looking at your math I know you're right. I remembered trying to get a 4-turn settler factory in one of my previous games, and there were three tiles with 3 food and no shields. A 4-turn wasn't possible, and I thought this was the same situation, but I forgot about the lamb.

 

[Abegweit]

Yep. The lambs makes all the difference. It would not be possible with three FPs. I assume that there is no discussion left on the issue. We are going to the desert square.

 

[Abegweit]

A couple of thoughts:

The existence of the settler factory makes it a lot more likely that we will get the Slingshot (more cities = more research).

It also makes it less costly to go after the Colossus. If it turns out that we are alone on this island and if we can find a decent location to build it, I say we should go for it... perhaps even in New York. We have a pre-build.

 

[Abegweit]

I pm'd AlanH and asked him if it would be OK for me to play the game through to the point where the goody hut is opened in order to see what kind of spreadsheet to calculate. He said that it would be fine. If there are no objections, I will make the opening moves I suggested above.

To reiterate:
worker to plains
settler to desert
build city
set research to CB
open hut

Assuming there are no objections, I will do this a little more than 3 hours from the time of this post and then put together a spreadsheet based on the result.

 

[Own]

CB? What use do we have for temples?

 

[Abegweit]

None. The objective is get another tech when opening the GH. Switch to Alpha afterwards.

 

[Own]

Ok, good thinking. I'm not smart enough to have thought of that.

 

[Abegweit]

Well, I founded the city and opened the GH.

We have a worker

There's another goody hut in view. I'll post the save and the spreadsheet in a couple of hours.