SGOTM8 - Wacken

Just to let you all know, I didn't get a chance to play tonight due to problems at work and tomorrow isn't looking any better. If you can wait until Friday for me to play, great, otherwise you can push me back a turnset or two.
 
I am a bit swamped too at the moment. No problem for me to wait for Xevious to finish his turns.
 
Hey, I was really planning on playing tonight, but I'm a field engineer, and I got my last service call at 4:30 for a site an hour and a half away. I just got home and not really in the mood to play right now. Been one of those weeks.

I have been looking at what to do off an on though. I think I want to get Atlanta to size six. I think I can pull of a 2 turn worker factory there then. I can also get the harbor in Philly done in 3 turns with some theft of tiles from Boston and Seattle. I also plan to stop the miners by Buffalo and start bringing water down from China and mining the hills. This will get irrigation in quick than coming through SF and also not lose the shields in SF. With only a handful of archers I don't think I'll be starting war right at the off. Do we really want to be building aqueducts in the northern towns right now?
 
I think those plans are good.

I started building those aquaducts because they will produce 1 spt for the comming 20 turns. That is not enough to be usefull in producing any militairy.
I stopped producing workers because they should start growing in size.

20 turns from now, they will be size 4 or so and the aquaduct will then soon be needed. Of course, they will also need the Library and Harbor.
On top of that, there isn't really much else they need to build. The first core cities just about have their needs completed and can build units. These units should be more than enough to conquer our island i think. Therefore, i think it is best to let the second core cities start their catchup immeadiately by building what they will need.

Indeed, there aren't enough archers for an attack yet. I was expecting somewhere in the second half of your turnset maybe.
 
Ok, I am seven turns into my set and I have a dilemma. Currently we have 12 archers, 5 in Miami, 4 in Buffalo, 1 reg sitting near Vikings waiting for a head to pop out and 2 more heading north (1 in Eindhoven and the other near NY). Philly and Washington will both produce one next turn. There are a couple vet warriors in Buffalo also. I'm not sure that's enough to start a war yet. The problem is:

Greece has Construction now, leaving only Currency to get an MA with. Also, Greece is trading luxes with China and they have an ROP. Is it likely they will still join in an MA? They won't now before I attack China, do you think they will after I attack? I think I'm going to pause here and wait for a couple replys. I should be able to finish up shortly after that.
 
I don't see a problem with attacking China at once, and then finding out whether the Greeks will join in. I would be surprised if they wouldn't join us in our rightful mission against China in return for currency. We have been waiting to attack the Chinese for a long time now and really ought to get going.

If nothing else it will be useful to know which free tech the Greeks will get.
 
Xevious, they will never sign an MA against an enemy that you are not yet at war with. You must first declare war before asking the MA.

Just go for it. If they don't want to join, then so be it and we will take them alone. Do it immeadiately, the longer you wait, the lower the value of currency as they are probably researching it now.

By the way, get those archers together before attacking. 4 or 5 is not enough to attack a city :)
 
Here's the SAVE.

350BC(0) Preturn checkup

Stop workers mining around Buffalo and start bringing water from China. Also move to start mining hills. Atlanta should run as a 2 turn worker factory from 5-6, assuming that the 6th citizen is put on the mountain, set governor to max production to help with that. If not then it should run 5.5 to 6.5. MM Philly to use all available shields at a cost of -2fpt for 2 turns and then will go to one less shield and -1fpt for the 3rd turn to finish harbor in 3. This leaves it with one food in bin. Then it will switch to all the sea tiles it can get for extra gold, allowing Boston and Seattle to get shields back. I also think we should get a few workers out of New York before building settlers. It is ready to run as a 2 turn worker factory now. Set both Seattle and Chicago to work mountains and run at zero growth. I will use workers to increase their sizes. Irrigating the grass in Chicago and Seattle will allow the extra citizens to work the mountains adding an extra shield for every three tiles (one mountain and two grass). 3 mined mountains, 5 irrigated grass and the fish in Chicago will get it to 10 spt, a nice number for production. The goats in Seattle will be a huge help in getting it to 10spt, once it expands from a library (which I will likely cash rush). Steal a roaded tile from Houston to give to St. Dman to gain an extra gold. Will use the archer by Eindhoven to try and make contact with Vikings. Sell our map for some gold and then by the world from Japan for 15g. I was hoping that might uncover a coastal route to our east, but no such luck. Looks like meeting the vikings and getting their map will be the only way. Leave science at 0. Ok, I think I've got everything ready.

Romans start THG.

330BC(1) Washington:Archer->Archer. MM Boston for gold (maxed on food), Atlanta for gold (maxed on shields), NY for food (+10fpt).

310BC(2) NY:Worker->Worker. Atlanta:Worker->Worker. Move Philly back to -1fpt. Archer can't see any vikings, so decide to use the worker from NY to build an oupost so we can meet them. An extra lux would be quite useful. Well, I was thinking the outpost was going to reach, but now realize it's not on a mountain. :p But, I've got 2 tile view into their city on that island, at least I don't have to leave the archer there waiting. Hmmm, no, thats not true either, as soon as I move archer away I lose that too. Damn, well I just wasted a worker. Sorry about that. Moving on, 2 turns of extra mountain in Chicago at a cost of -2fpt will shave a turn off the harbor there. Irrigate the tile west of SF to get water down to Eindhoven. MM around the north to make sure it doesn't hurt SF shields.

Japan builds THG, starts MoM.

290BC(3) Washington:Archer->Archer. NY expands. Boston:Aqueduct->Library. A city is very unlikely here, as has been discussed, and everything else is actually a benefit. Gold, a free warrior (to uncover more map) and the best would be a worker (can chop forest and mine BG for Boston). Philly:Harbor->Archer. Philly can get them out in 3 turns, soon to be 2 turns. Join a worker to Boston and Chicago. Build an emabassy in Greece. Athens has 3 hoplites and is 13 turns from finishing Great Lighthouse. 2 of the 6 citizens are entertainers. They are not looking too good. We are now strong compared to them, still average to China.

270BC(4) NY:Worker->Worker. Atlanta:Worker->Worker (2 turn works, just need to move off mountain to irrigated plains when worker is produced).

250BC(5) Washington:Archer->Worker. MM Washington and Chicago to get worker out of Washington and still stay at size 12. I'm moving the first few archers created to Buffalo. Taking Tsingtao will take China's only luxury, reducing there production even more. Whil we will go for Shanghai and it's horses, they will still have horses so it's not as quick a target. Buffalo now has 5 shields, 4 of them wasted. So until the FP is done I'll be lucky if I can get 2 shields out of it.

230BC(6) Washington:Worker->Archer. Hmm, learned something new. Washington gained enough food to grow while producing worker but didn't grow. So apparently you can't get a worker and grow back to 12 in the same turn. NY:Worker->Worker. Philly:Archer->Archer. Atlanta:Worker->Worker. Rush library in Seattle for 128g, this will get those goats faster, then we need to get the harbor out quick too. Greece has Construction now. Will have to attack China soon if we're to use Currency to get them to fight too.

210BC(7) Chicago:Harbor->Library. Seattle:Library->Harbor. Switch Eindhoven to Library. With a cut jungle on our side and a BG on the island next door it will not need a harbor until after it gets an aqueduct. Looks like I'll be attacking China next turn. Switch NY to Settler, due in 2 just as we grow to 12. Spend 44g on an embassy in China. They are building Glib in Beijing, have 17 turns to go, not likely to be built by the time we get there. They have 3 spears defending, probably only going to be 2 in Tsingtao and Shanghai I'm guessing. They are running 90% science. They also have 2 luxes. I now see they are getting wines from Greece. This may prevent Greece from allying with us. Ok, after consulting the forum, attack China and start moving forces toward Tsingtao. Ally Greece for Currency and a couple gold. Greece gets Feudalism for free. So, that broke their trade deal, dropping them to 1 lux and if we take Tsingtao, they will have no luxes. Rome also has Feudalism.

190BC(8) Washington:Archer->Worker. Philly:Archer->Archer. Atlanta:Worker->Worker. Greece has 2 workers available, which seems to indicate China is going after the wines. Jungle dyes cleared and now roaded. China is still building 3 wonders?!?

Romans start Sun Tzu.

170BC(9) Washington:Worker->Archer. Borrow irrigated grass from Chicago to grow Washington this turn. Move stacks of 4 and 5 archers onto China's dyes, taking their last lux away. China destroyed Greece's nothernmost city. Finally get last core city (besides Atlanta the worker factory) up to size 7+. I can get furs + WM from Rome for WM,10gpt, and 5g. I play with slider and see that dropping to 50% lux will gain us 14gpt, so I make the trade and drop lux to 50%.

150BC(10) NY:Settler->Settler. HMM... Looks like I screwed something up last turn? NY only got 8 food. Best I can get is 11 food, so that is not good. :p Philly:Archer->Archer. Atlanta:Worker->Worker. Seattle expands, and is now up to 10 uncorrupted shields. Take Tsingtao, losing 2 archers, move 2 warriors in. Sending 4 archers from the attacking stack and a few more reinforcements towards Shanghai. Because Xinjian has no culture, if we take Shanghai it will connect our horses.


Future plans:

Workers
There is a stack of 6 workers NE of Miami. 3 of them are on their second turn of jungle cutting, which will leave 10 turns to go next turn. On the next turn use 2 workers to cut jungle, bringing it down to 2 turns, and use the last worker to road. The jungle will clear and the road will finish on the same turn. 2 workers SE of Seattle are ready to mine the last usable mountain. The single worker N of Seattle can irrigate another grass so the new mountain can be used. Chicago needs more irrigation to be able to use all of its mountains. I've been using the workers from Atlanta to join Philly to get it to size 12 to maximize the usefulness of the Colossus.

Cities
New York is a bit of a mess since I missed something near the end and lost the 10fpt. Hopefully it can be fixed without losing too much. Atlanta runs as a 2 turn worker factory. When it produces a worker, move citizen from mountain to the plains SE of mountain. I've been skimming workers from Washington just before it fills the bin at size 12 so we don't waste its food. As mentioned earlier in this thread, this could be changed to produce settlers. Seattle and Chicago are almost done with their last building and then they can produce units. Boston will have a library in 4 turns, and then 3 turns after that it will pop the hut. The FP is due in 8 turns, so if a city is popped, the most it can delay the FP is one turn. Buffalo is able to use 2 hill/iGrass pairs, while Miami will get the other. Buffalo should have slightly lower corruption than Miami. Hopefully once the FP is done we'll see some decent numbers in those cities.

Misc
I haven't done any research during my set, Feudalism is known. We could start research now, or wait until FP finishes in 8 turns. We are getting furs from Rome for 10gpt (which payed back 14gpt after dropping lux tax). China is still building wonders in its 3 biggest cities. There are horses under Canton so if we want to take them away we need that city too. They are building Great Lib in Beijing, but with out luxes it may have slowed down. It was on target to finish in 13 or 14 turns.

WackenSG08_150bc.jpg
 
Good morning! We are at war!!! Hurrah! Well done Xevious.

So, my goals are what? Take Xinjang, Shanghai and if opportunity shows it possible Canton? We allow China to finish teir gambit for the GL in Beijing. We need to sigh at least one peace agreement with china to get their off shore locations, maybe two or three?

Suggestions? I will play in 8-10 hours from now if nothing requiring a thorough discussion comes to mind.
 
All those yellow humbers hurt my eyes a bit, please let our cities grow again.
Sure nice to have 10 spt in philly, but lets have 10 spt when the city is size 12. Same for all the other cities.

Make the war short, we don't want war weariness to screw us over. Shanghai and Xinjan maybe are enough for now.
Start ICSing the conquered lands right as we conquer them.

Please start researching, i would take monotheism probably. I would set a research path to education, then see where the AI is at with their research.
I don't think we should have used our gold on ambasies.

The cities on other islands are not incredibly important. I think our reputation is more important now and we should not make more than one peace deal every 20 turns.

Also do we need a settler to build that southern second core city in 8 turns. Leaving enough space open to be used by Miami, i think we can build 2 more cities in chinese territory (W & NE of the 4 archer stack) for a total of 3 settlers needed now. Unless you take more of china.

It may sound odd, but philly should start a prebuild for copernicus. We have 8 more turns before FP, then 4 techs to astronomy for a total of 16 turns. So philly should actually have started the prebuild 16 turns ago :)

IF we capture something industrious and copernicus is gonna trigger our GA, then philly will have the production to also produce Newtons. If this is not the case, we will need to build it in our capital or San francisco as Newtons will be available shortly after copernicus. Also with a prebuild well in advance.
 
OK, I have had a change of plans for today so have time to play now. I agree with Wacken's assessment but I am not sure we can have a short war with China. We are in alliance with Greece and until that agreement expires I guess our reputation would take a dive if we sue for peace on our own? Starting a war with Greece before our Alliance expires will also trash our rep AFAIK. And since the agreement with greece is MA wo any MPP we are stuck with the southern chinese locations as targets.

Will have a Settler in position to found last "second core" city when SF finish the FP.
 
Wotan said:
OK, I have had a change of plans for today so have time to play now. I agree with Wacken's assessment but I am not sure we can have a short war with China. We are in alliance with Greece and until that agreement expires I guess our reputation would take a dive if we sue for peace on our own? Starting a war with Greece before our Alliance expires will also trash our rep AFAIK. And since the agreement with greece is MA wo any MPP we are stuck with the southern chinese locations as targets.

Will have a Settler in position to found last "second core" city when SF finish the FP.
Click to expand...

Oh yes, well then lets hope WW will be bearable, certainly within the firtst 8 turns.

While it is good to conquer china, our primary goal is still to get all cities to size 12 with a library and harbor. We will go trough MA at top speed. We should be in IA in about 40 turns from now, techs will then be 3 times as expensive again and we will need all our potential to keep research at 4 turns then.

StDman could maybe be another worker factory to feed all cities to size 12?

I now actually expect a surplus in commerce in the first few turns after the FP is build. (more than needed for 4 turn research) If this is true, i think it would be most wise to use this extra gold to rushbuild an aquaduct in Atlanta.


The techs are rather cheap i see.
Monotheism seems to cost about 800.
End MA techs will be around 1500.
IA will range from 2400 to 4800.

The step from last MA to first IA tech is rather big, so we should be prepared to do the last MA tech in 4 turns at 60% if possible. If we can do this, and we can gather extra gold during this period, we should use this to run deficit on later research.

Oh ya, dunno if you are already playing Xevious, but i would start research in 4 turns.
we will not finish any research in less than 9 turns from now. It doesn't matter if you start it now or 4 turns from now, you can use the gold gathered in 4 turns to run deficit. This provides 4 more turns to see what the AI is researching.

When we research a tech ourselves while the AI has not yet researched engineering, we should gift it to everyone. If they are researching engineering, no harm done, if they are not, it will complete their current research, giving them the opportunity to research engineering. Same for the 2th and 3th tech we research. Only when they do have engineering, we should trade engineering around the world then we will be sure they will research to gunpowder from there.

When we have education, and they have gunpowder, we should trade education around so they will probably do astronomy.
 
I think we ought to stay at war with China for some time now. WW should only kick in if we suffer a lot of losses. Ideally we would like to take their remaining horses, take the iron in the north, and secure wines in the north. Admittedly it is a tall order, but soon our southern cities will be able to concentrate on military. There is no point having military hanging around costing 2gpt.

We probably ought to start building settlers to settle the conquered chinese lands.
 
Offa said:
I think we ought to stay at war with China for some time now. WW should only kick in if we suffer a lot of losses. Ideally we would like to take their remaining horses, take the iron in the north, and secure wines in the north. Admittedly it is a tall order, but soon our southern cities will be able to concentrate on military. There is no point having military hanging around costing 2gpt.

We probably ought to start building settlers to settle the conquered chinese lands.
Click to expand...

Ya we will need to fight for 20 turns anyway. I suggest counting our losses (Xevious how many did you lose?) and stepping back a bit when we lose 13 units. as far as i understand, you get WW levels every 15 losses. units in enemy terrain also add, but those can then be pulled back.

I have been thinking a bit more about our golden age, and i don't think it matters an incredible lot when we will get it.
I expect our research without GA to be sufficient troughout the MA, slightly insufficient in the early IA, pretty unsufficient (6-7 turns) late IA.

GA at hoover would solve much of late IA research. GA early IA (with newtons) will completely solve early IA research and allows quick factories to be build. GE late MA (at newtons) will help us build universities quickly and have them ready to start factory builds right after.
 
I only lost 2 archers. I have 6 in position to get next to Shanghai next turn.

As for the embassies, I had to build one in Greece. Can't get an MA without an embassy. So if you think I wasted gold on them, it was only the one in China. As for all the "yellow" cities, I was trying to maximize production to get the war started. I had workers coming from both Atlanta and NY to grow those cities. Once they are over size 6 they grow so slowly that they're only going to get maybe one more citizen on their own anyway and I felt we needed the production more at the time.
 
I think a late Golden Age might be better too.

We will soon enter a long period with relatively little to build (universities etc), but the conquest phase will require lots of production. I presume the conquest will be done with helicopters and tanks, both of which have to be built/rushed from scratch. Cavalry etc are next to useless against infantry, and the only marginally useful units we will get from upgrades will be infantry and artillery.
 
Yes, i also thought about a late golden age possibly being best, but i don't really know for sure.

I thought we can't transport tanks with choppers?
 
WackenOpenAir said:
I thought we can't transport tanks with choppers?
Click to expand...

I think you are right :( . However, they are very good units and we will be able to cash rush them on the AI infested islands. A while off yet though.

Edit: reading the rules, airlifts will be allowed. I have no idea how these work but this will be the game in which to find out I guess.
 
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