How Would You Implement A Classic Mode?

- pick any Civ from any era at the start of the game
- at no point do I or my opponents ever change Civ
- Age transitions do not reset anything
In my proposal, age transitions reset nothing. Certain techs might make older buildings obsolete, but it occurs on researching the tech, not age transition. All age transition does is change the cost levels of a tech tier as a rubber banding mechanism, and allow for optional civ switching. Age transition also affects civs which are from that age, in that their unique civics unlock for research in the correct age. This doesn't feel all too different from past civs, but still allows for age-specific civs (like Han, Ming, Qing instead of "China").

A button check in options mandating all computer civs never civ-switch is an easy accommodation, and someone else mentioned it.
 
But the big question is snowballing. The age system has exacerbated snowballing since the AI suffers from it far more than the human, and far too many players players seem to absolutely loathe it. The argument that you could solve this with AI is true, but seems unlikely that Firaxis will pull off to me I.think the answer is that they need to move away from using the age system to try and reset players and look at adding more constant "brakes". Reducing yield explosion is also part of it, but I don't think it solves everything by itself.

The best anti-snowball mechanism they have in Civ7 is the settlement limit. I don't think it's the best but as a starting point I'd build on that:
  • I'd make the penalties for going over harsher (include empire-wide yield % penalties), and make cities take up 2 settlement limit.
  • You'd need something like a vassal or occupied city option which give minimal yields but take up no/less settlement limit and still let militarists do their goals.
  • Probably for exploration you'd need something similar for the distant lands as a "colony" which gave reduced yields but took up less settlement limit.
In my proposal I never mentioned settlement limits. Most people find settlement limits very constraining, but also necessary to prevent an expansionist rat race. A large base of the community is not keen on Civ 5 style limits.

I've long felt that the town vs city dichotomy is the solution to settlement limits. I favor no settlement limits for towns, or rather, distance from cities and more softly distance from capital as a happiness penalty. Meanwhile, cities are subject to a settlement limit. This feature combined with large maps actually makes Civ 7 really fun.

These peripheral systems can get a deeper adjustment in an expansion, rather than in the classic mode patch.
 
Yeah, completely removing the ages I'm pretty sure is a non-starter from a design perspective. I mean, sure, it's not impossible to just chain together the tech and civic trees, for example, and probably to have 9 tiers of units instead of 3x3. But you'd have to redesign the whole overbuilding system, add in resources appearing or disappearing somehow, never mind figuring out how that completely different game from the classic game balances with the classic view, including making sure each civ's unique trees make sense and show up at the right time (you'd need to make sure the American Rail Yard doesn't get unlocked 20 turns into the game, obviously).
My solution for this is to flatten all yields and not have yield scaling.

Right now, IMO, the problem with Civ 7 that makes it boring is specifically the balancing around hundreds of different bonuses that affect yields, and a highly oversimplified adjacency and specialist system, along with yield scaling meant to allow behind players to catch up. This balancing constrains gameplay into narrow and repetitive choices, and some have described the choices in the game as too "spreadsheet-y" which is funny for a 4x. Usually a little spreadsheet-iness is appreciated, but here there's nothing outside of yield maximization, which ultimately does lead to snowballing and a dead endgame. What I've found, in fact, is that spawning with just the right resources nearby seems to make all the difference in your early game that sets up an inexorable snowball. This core emphasis on yields and balance is what makes the overall age structure also repetitive and boring.

Like I said, my solution is to flatten all yields to small, narrow range, and replace yield maxxing with asymmetric strategies from synergistic civic and building effects. An example would be a building that generates culture based on the number of players whose trade routes cross that city. Or a building that generates science based on the number of codices assigned, but with a geometric progression for stacking codices (but the building can be looted).

So, in other words, it's no longer about just building one of that building in every city to stack yields, but placing the right buildings in the right cities based on circumstances. I then proposed an age based "event" system that creates the feeling of an age that age-based civs can relate to, without forcing players into a legacy path progression within this hyper balanced yields framework.

It's a bit of a paradox. By having age-based civs, you actually exacerbate snowballing by overemphasizing the importance of ages. This means you have to nerf the importance of age and make ages relevant to game flow in some other way. I would like ages to add flavor (doing different things in the game at different times) and progression should be measured in adding complexity and more systems over the progress of history, not necessarily through mad scaling and bigger moar numbers.

With the right buildings, you are going to get higher yield if you manage complementarities correctly. Likely, you will also get higher settlement limits, creating scale that way. While there won't be strict scaling (+1,+5,+10 yields for age based science building), you can have soft scaling, where you balance by estimating the range of yields a building can produce, and limit it within an age-based guideline that manages scaling. So, for instance, a factory won't produce hammer yields just on its own, but based on the number of resources assigned. You have to choose specific places for factories, and have the resources at hand, but a factory could potentially produce, say 100 hammers per turn. Developers will reckon the average factory number per 10 settlements, and then create perhaps a range estimate based on resources prevalence on a map, and say that an average factory could produce 20-100 hammers, average of 35.

So you no longer just plop plop plop a factory in every city you can once you research it. You might have more settlements and more production buildings (+1-2 average production) to increase hammer yields. However, you strategy will determine the unique places for a factory to go, not in every city, and through these you can achieve substantially higher yields.

That's the idea. I would expect players to find synergies that break the game, and I would think that's a good thing and easily corrected in patches. This process of having a sandbox of conceptually balanced tools, players breaking them, and devs interacting and further balancing is part of what fuels community participation in the game IMO.
 
In my proposal I never mentioned settlement limits. Most people find settlement limits very constraining, but also necessary to prevent an expansionist rat race. A large base of the community is not keen on Civ 5 style limits.

I've long felt that the town vs city dichotomy is the solution to settlement limits. I favor no settlement limits for towns, or rather, distance from cities and more softly distance from capital as a happiness penalty. Meanwhile, cities are subject to a settlement limit. This feature combined with large maps actually makes Civ 7 really fun.

These peripheral systems can get a deeper adjustment in an expansion, rather than in the classic mode patch.
I don't think Settlement is the best way to limit snowballing, but it's the one system I can think of which they have in 7 which is working to curtail it. And I think moving away from using era resets to constrain snowballing is really important. If snowballing is curtailed by consistent features it will feel less like your toys are being taken asay.

I'd love to see them change approach from settlement limit to something which feels less arbitrary in the future, but for the moment I think they could use it to bolster the town/city separation, and I think using it is honestly their best shot at quickly curtailing snowballing. If they can't curtail snowballing neither classic or vanilla Civ7 modes are going to work.
 
I don't think Settlement is the best way to limit snowballing, but it's the one system I can think of which they have in 7 which is working to curtail it. And I think moving away from using era resets to constrain snowballing is really important. If snowballing is curtailed by consistent features it will feel less like your toys are being taken asay.

I'd love to see them change approach from settlement limit to something which feels less arbitrary in the future, but for the moment I think they could use it to bolster the town/city separation, and I think using it is honestly their best shot at quickly curtailing snowballing. If they can't curtail snowballing neither classic or vanilla Civ7 modes are going to work.
I wish they had put more effort into the UI and didn't have such broken and opaque ways of doing things like food sharing.

With a more robust system, you can create a way for there to be implicit settlement limits, which aren't ameliorated through specific tiered upgrades which come through tech tree progress. Instead, certain policies or buildings can improve your ability to share food between settlements, and that governs your progress.

Of course, they really messed this up by removing population loss for famine. They really constrained themselves with this and it not only contributes to the staleness of game progression, it also has been the source of numerous headaches that especially at the beginning, made food a pointless yield. While we're not in Civ 2 or 3 territory anymore, absolute size of your empire has always been the backbone of your yield output, with the exception-as-an-exception of complementarities that permit tall city gameplay.

If empires can scale up and down, then managing empire growth is a core experience of playing civ. Now that all empires only grow, but don't shrink, you have to throttle growth to give cadence to the game, and next thing you know it's all very boring and you get weird things like happiness being way too powerful.

However, that's Civ 7. People say I want a "whole brand new game" with proposals like mine, but I'm not proposing any changes like negative population growth or adding builders back to the game. To cure repetitiveness, I'd make settlement limitations tied to physical food distribution, where you have to build infrastructure in your empire to get food out if you want to grow - oh but oops that might mean you underinvest in military resources and get conquered. That sort of dynamic would cure the repetitiveness. Racing to a tech tier or maxing yields (which is not a thing for food until Modern) is not how you should improve settlement limitations. The design of your empire within its geography and your strategic tradeoffs ought to be how you manage settlement limitations.

Imagine a civic that is good at food interdiction and nerfs an opponent's happiness. Imagine a civic that bypasses interdiction, like secret food smuggling.

Of course, the problem in the end is the development studio refuses to invest in good AI designers because, frankly, I suspect, their salaries would compete for the salaries of the senior devs who might have experience, but ultimately lack sufficient talent. The Emil Pagliarulo effect.
 
Wouldn't a first step towards a "classic mode" not be to allow all Civilizations be playable from the first Age into the second & third Ages?

You'd need to reskin the units and buildings which are outside of the Civilizations default Age to make it work, but it doesn't sound that difficult.
You wouldn't need to add new unique units, buildings or civics. They can stay in the default Age of the Civilization.
 
I have floated the following before as what I think would be the fastest way to get something like a Classic mode.

You can pick any of the present civlets, from any age, as your civ for the entire game. As part of a game set-up, you designate it. All through the game, settlement names are drawn from the list associated with that civlet.

In game, the leader appears as "[Leader] of the [Your Civ Here] People"--all through the game. "Ben Franklin of the American People" right from antiquity.

The developers design a generic civlet for each of the three ages. Some set of advantages, basically on a par with what a present civlet gets.

In the age where the civ presently exists, you get the bonuses associated with your civ. In the other ages, you the generic bonuses.

All my plan requires is for the developers to design three generic civs, one for each age, and to change the in-game display of the leadername to always also include the civ name, as above.

Allow, as they already do, for crises to be turned off.

Maybe your opponents could also appear in game as having a consistent civ-name even if they are in fact cobbled together out of three civlets. They can be off getting whatever advantages they get, but you don't have to be annoyed by a constantly-changing name.
 
I have floated the following before as what I think would be the fastest way to get something like a Classic mode.

You can pick any of the present civlets, from any age, as your civ for the entire game. As part of a game set-up, you designate it. All through the game, settlement names are drawn from the list associated with that civlet.

In game, the leader appears as "[Leader] of the [Your Civ Here] People"--all through the game. "Ben Franklin of the American People" right from antiquity.

The developers design a generic civlet for each of the three ages. Some set of advantages, basically on a par with what a present civlet gets.

In the age where the civ presently exists, you get the bonuses associated with your civ. In the other ages, you the generic bonuses.

All my plan requires is for the developers to design three generic civs, one for each age, and to change the in-game display of the leadername to always also include the civ name, as above.

Allow, as they already do, for crises to be turned off.

Maybe your opponents could also appear in game as having a consistent civ-name even if they are in fact cobbled together out of three civlets. They can be off getting whatever advantages they get, but you don't have to be annoyed by a constantly-changing name.
In this direction I see a bit easier approach:
  1. On the screen of choosing civilization it's named "choose culture"
  2. This screen also have "Civilization name" control, which allows choosing from all the civilizations from all ages, but default equals to the chosen culture
  3. During the game, civilization name is used for all names, including settlements
  4. During age transition you could also choose civilization name, which by default matches your new culture if you haven't changed the civilization name before, or your previous civilization name if you did
  5. AI can't pick cultures which match either your culture or your civilization name. Not sure how it should work for MP and whether should work at all.
That way the changes of the game will truly be minimal and people will be able to play any civilization from start to finish, although their uniques will match their selected culture.
 
Wouldn't a first step towards a "classic mode" not be to allow all Civilizations be playable from the first Age into the second & third Ages?
Just find the closest ancient civ for a later civ, and use their palace for the earlier age. Once a civ enters its appropriate age, it keeps its palace. You could even actually have a prompt that says, "Your civ has entered a golden age for its culture" and make a big deal about the palace upgrading. Just a way to complement the unlocking of civics and units now the civ has arrived in its appropriate age.
 
The developers design a generic civlet for each of the three ages. Some set of advantages, basically on a par with what a present civlet gets.
This is pretty smart. When your civ transitions to itself from generic, you could make a big deal about it and upgrade the palace model permanently, and unlock all your uniques.
 
In this direction I see a bit easier approach:
  1. On the screen of choosing civilization it's named "choose culture"
  2. This screen also have "Civilization name" control, which allows choosing from all the civilizations from all ages, but default equals to the chosen culture
  3. During the game, civilization name is used for all names, including settlements
  4. During age transition you could also choose civilization name, which by default matches your new culture if you haven't changed the civilization name before, or your previous civilization name if you did
  5. AI can't pick cultures which match either your culture or your civilization name. Not sure how it should work for MP and whether should work at all.
That way the changes of the game will truly be minimal and people will be able to play any civilization from start to finish, although their uniques will match their selected culture.
Somehow just making civ continuity a mostly cosmetic thing seems inadequate for what people desire, but then again, maybe it's that banal in people's imaginations. Maybe that's all people need.

You'd have to develop some UI assets, but you could have a continuity/classic mode where you just rename all the civs.

Mongolia = "XXXX, Lords of the Steppe"
Hawaii = "XXXX, Masters of the Ocean"

So you are selecting from all the same existing civs, but the UI shows that "Rome has entered a new era, choose your new specialization"

"Rome, Lords of the Steppe"
"Rome, Masters of the Ocean"
"Rome, Caliphs to the Prophet"
"Rome, The Middle Kingdom"

But, you still have the problem of how age transition disrupts flow and how the resets constrain play and create a feeling of boredom in many.
 
maybe it's that banal in people's imaginations. Maybe that's all people need.
I don't think it is all that everybody needs, but I think it is a big part of what a lot of people need. The thing one hears is "I want to be able to play the same civ from Stone Age to Space Age.." The reason I think my proposal could (and quickly) please some percentage of the people who haven't adopted 7, is that some of them will say "I'm used to my civ only having its uniques mostly functional in one era of the game; that doesn't put me off." What does put some people off is it feeling jarring to move from the [Civ that has one set of associations in this world] to the [Civ that has a different set of associations in this world]. And my system gets rid of that. If one wants to call that "banal" or not, I don't know, but for some it boils down to essentially that.

I added the bit about muting crises, because the second biggest complaint I hear is "don't take away from me the stuff I've worked hard to earn."
 
Somehow just making civ continuity a mostly cosmetic thing seems inadequate for what people desire, but then again, maybe it's that banal in people's imaginations. Maybe that's all people need.

You'd have to develop some UI assets, but you could have a continuity/classic mode where you just rename all the civs.

Mongolia = "XXXX, Lords of the Steppe"
Hawaii = "XXXX, Masters of the Ocean"

So you are selecting from all the same existing civs, but the UI shows that "Rome has entered a new era, choose your new specialization"

"Rome, Lords of the Steppe"
"Rome, Masters of the Ocean"
"Rome, Caliphs to the Prophet"
"Rome, The Middle Kingdom"

But, you still have the problem of how age transition disrupts flow and how the resets constrain play and create a feeling of boredom in many.
I don't see it a solution to please significant number of people just kind of low effort trick to improve immersion for some people.

And yes, renamed cultures look nice as an option or a mod. It's important to keep the current civ switching as default to not displease people who like the game as it is.
 
According to who?

Why are people talking about how long it would take to implement it? I think it can be done by a very small team of people in less than a year, Firaxis hasnt said anything about being impossible or how long it would take



So its impossible for Firaxis, but modders can do it?



We have been telling them this for months, but the ones that are not the ones that want Classic Mode think they know better than us what Classic Mode is....

The classic mode you want is I think almost impossible to make for civ7 because of the reloading between age, or in such a hacking way that you'd better stay on civ6 or wait for civ8.

You can keep the same civ, you can have absolute continuity, but you can't have 2 civs in two different ages at the same time.
 
I don't think they can make a classic mode in any way that would make me want to buy the game to be honest. The game is designed in a certain way, and any "classic mode" would be a giant compromise to that core design. I would always be playing the lesser version that isn't entirely designed to work 100%. Classic mode would certainly please a lot of people, but it's not enough for me. I want a complete and well designed game - not a compromise. They would have to rework large parts of the game to make me interested, and I dont see that happening because their DLC policy is tied up to leaders and civs. If they make giant changes to this, you might upset people that already spent money on a system they like.

They set themselves up to fail by not listening to feedback or taking lessons from Humankind. I'm happy for those that like civ7, but I'm maybe a bit more concerned about what happens to civ8. Maybe this is the new normal and I'm just done with the entire franchise? I hope not.
 
Somehow just making civ continuity a mostly cosmetic thing seems inadequate for what people desire, but then again, maybe it's that banal in people's imaginations. Maybe that's all people need.

You'd have to develop some UI assets, but you could have a continuity/classic mode where you just rename all the civs.

Mongolia = "XXXX, Lords of the Steppe"
Hawaii = "XXXX, Masters of the Ocean"

So you are selecting from all the same existing civs, but the UI shows that "Rome has entered a new era, choose your new specialization"

"Rome, Lords of the Steppe"
"Rome, Masters of the Ocean"
"Rome, Caliphs to the Prophet"
"Rome, The Middle Kingdom"

But, you still have the problem of how age transition disrupts flow and how the resets constrain play and create a feeling of boredom in many.
I really think it is a reaction almost entirely to cosmetics though. There are a lot of predefined notions about what a Civ is and what specific Civs look like and play like, which is quite difficult for some people to move away from. The reality is in Civ 7 you don’t really lose all that much of your original civ, it’s more that you build on top of it. For the most part it’s a name and a badge and maybe an ability that changes. That is mostly cosmetic.

I genuinely don’t think there is a way to square the circle with that view though, there is no way to make Civ 7 work in a ‘classic’ way that retains any semblance of satisfying gameplay, because Civ 7’s main features are Ages and Civ Switching. It doesn’t have much else going for it.

Many of the idea touted here seem ok, till you see the prevalence of words like ‘generic’ and ‘vanilla’ and you realise what kind of game that would be.
 
I don't think they can make a classic mode in any way that would make me want to buy the game to be honest. The game is designed in a certain way, and any "classic mode" would be a giant compromise to that core design. I would always be playing the lesser version that isn't entirely designed to work 100%. Classic mode would certainly please a lot of people, but it's not

How it works now doesn't bother me, but they could always just change the name and clothes of the civ to be the one you want, while maintaining everything else. For a while Rome would have Spain powers or whatever.
 
There's a strong push for the classic mode for Civ 7, and whatever your thoughts on the game or this subject, it seems that at least half of the former playerbase won't ever play this game without a classic mode, so whatever improvements could be made to 7, it seems that only a classic mode will repair the audience.

The question is, how in the world do you do it? This thread is for any discussion on this topic, including your own ideas. So, I have an idea, but I'll post it as a reply.
I'd prefer a classic mode without ages, where you play as one civilization from start to finish. However, I’m afraid it’s not realistic to expect Firaxis to go all the way back and provide that kind of experience just for disappointed fans like me.
On the other hand, I’m convinced that if Firaxis listens only to the “stick to your vision” crowd, the game won’t make it past the first DLC. Simply put, there aren’t enough potential players who appreciate the way civ switching and the ages system are currently implemented (just check the relevant polls in this forum).

So, I’d suggest starting with a simple option. Allow players to keep their existing civilization throughout all ages, whether it's an Antiquity, Exploration, or Modern civ. That shouldn’t require too many resources and would be worth the risk. If the feedback is positive, it could help rebuild the player base and give Firaxis the opportunity to invest more in other areas of the game that many players seem to struggle with, such as the lack of meaningful choices in the mid- and late-game.

Last but not least, Firaxis should be transparent and tell the community that while they clearly have a different vision for the game (the “history of layers” concept), they’ve also heard the feedback and recognize that many fans prefer a more classic gameplay style. They don’t want to lose those fans either. Not everyone will appreciate that approach, of course, but I think it’s their best chance to bring back some disappointed players and build a solid enough player base to keep supporting and improving the game in the long run.
 
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