SGOTM8 - Wacken

[grahamiam]

reduced by 70% means it becomes 30 right? so with a courthouse that means 20% for the FP city.

yes, exactly. sorry, corrected my post.

@wotan: FP has no effect on Rank corruption whatsoever. Rank is defined, in C3C terms, as distance from the palace only. tie-breakers are determined by settlement date. edit: of course, OCN also effects rank corruption as well, so the FP does have some effect by increasing the OCN number, but it is an overall effect and not city specific like the determination of rank.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

No distance rank is determind as distance to closest palace, not to capital. The FP will always have low corruption but cities closer to the FP than to the capital will affect distance rank for cities around the capital so putting the FP in the jungle area would be next to impossible since it would require us to put cities at 5+ distance to keep corruption intact at a low level around Washington.

The ICS area would be outside the distance of all important cities around Washington and as long as we keep locations at 5+ in distance from FP everything should be OK.

no

The distance factor has no influence here. It is for 1 city and it doesn't influence other cities. Anyway we do it, it will always be 3-5 for all cities.

We only care about the rank factor.
Rank is only counted by distance to the capital. Distance to FP has no influence. Cities do not need to be further from the FP as those around the capital are.

If we build the second core as close to our capital as possible (the jungle), there are no cities between the cores that have an affect on the rank of any of our cities around either the captial or the FP.
If we build it far away, there will be cities between our cores and those will effect our second core's rank corruption.

Therefore, the jungle is the only option. And after doing this, we must draw a big circle on the map with the centre at our capital and the radius at the furthest 2th-core city and never build or capture any city inside that circle. Outside that circle, we ICS everything we can.

The first dotmap it should be (or with small alterations). The choise is between palace jump, wait for leader or handbuild. I vote for palace jump. (but we probably have 20-30 turns to think about this.)

 

[Wotan]

@wotan: FP has no effect on Rank corruption whatsoever. Rank is defined, in C3C terms, as distance from the palace only. tie-breakers are determined by settlement date.

I found this in the CFC Academy, if it is correct it contradicts your interpretation. It would measure distance as distance to closest palace, either Palace of Forbidden Palace.
"The Forbidden Palace acts as a second Palace for distance corruption calculations, but not for rank calculations. The Forbidden Palace itself will have low corruption, but if there are many cities closer to the Palace than the Forbidden Palace, the cities around the Forbidden Palace will have high rank corruption. However, even though it doesn't provide a new set of city ranks, the Forbidden Palace reduces rank corruption throughout the empire by increasing the optimal number of cities."

EDIT: I am beginning to feel more and more confused. I guess I have totally misunderstood this but one thing I still worry about is what will the difference be for eg. Philly if a city is closer to FP than Philly is to Palace? And what if it is the other way around?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I found this in the CFC Academy, if it is correct it contradicts your interpretation. It would measure distance as distance to closest palace, either Palace of Forbidden Palace.
"The Forbidden Palace acts as a second Palace for distance corruption calculations, but not for rank calculations. The Forbidden Palace itself will have low corruption, but if there are many cities closer to the Palace than the Forbidden Palace, the cities around the Forbidden Palace will have high rank corruption. However, even though it doesn't provide a new set of city ranks, the Forbidden Palace reduces rank corruption throughout the empire by increasing the optimal number of cities."

sorry, it is indeed correct and it does not contradict our interpretations. I think your iterpretation might be wrong

 

[grahamiam]

@Wotan, I agree, FP effects Distance corruption. However, the C3C corruption model has 2 components, distance and rank. Distance is effected by closest Palace( ie, FP, SPHQ, or palace). Rank is determined by distance to the Palace only (in this case, Washington) and the OCN. FP increases the OCN, so has an indirect effect on rank corruption, but not a direct effect like it has on distance corruption.

 

[grahamiam]

Wotan: if philly is far from the palace, it will have a high distance and rank corruption, as we can expect it to be many tile away and have many cities between it and the palace. The FP kills 70% of all corruption in the city it is build, regardless of type. So, if we build the FP in Philly, we can expect 20 or 30% corruption (need to check alexman's calc again). With a courthouse, we can expect an further reduction by 10%.

Due to this, if we do jump the palace, then I strongly suggest we build the FP in Philly, not in a nearby town.

btw, if somebody on our team is a wiz with Ainwoods analyzer, I think this does all the calculations for us and we can find out the best location. However, with more land to the N, and a long game ahead of us, I agree with both of you that the Palace should jump N.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Well, the position of the new capital or FP i am now quite sure about. It should look like the first dotmap.

I am completely certain philly will not suffer if we leader rush or hand build the FP there with cities at distance 4.

If we jump the palace with a FP in philly, philly will certainly be ok and have a lower corruption than it has now.

Philly will be ok either way.


What remains is that we will have 2 cores. No matter which core is which, the one around the capital will be in the 20-30% corruption range, the one around the FP will be in the 40-60% range.

Now the question is what does it matter which of the 2 cores is the lowest corruption core. and how will we be able to set up that second core fastest.

 

[grahamiam]

EDIT: I am beginning to feel more and more confused. I guess I have totally misunderstood this but one thing I still worry about is what will the difference be for eg. Philly if a city is closer to FP than Philly is to Palace? And what if it is the other way around?

If Philly is closer to the FP then the palace (and the palace is still Washington), then the distance corruption decreases. The Rank corruption is uneffected. So, overall corruption in Philly would decrease (probably not by much).

If Philly builds the FP while Washington is still the palace, then the distance corruption goes to 0 but the rank corruption remains unchanged.

If the palace is jumped to Athens (just as an example), then the distance corruption increases and the rank corruption increases dramatically in Philly. If the FP is in Philly before the jump, then the overall corruption is reduced by 70% in that city alone. The towns around Philly will have thier distance corruption based on thier distance to Philly, but thier rank corruption may be so high (ie, greater 100% due to thier new rank based on the new location of the palace), that the towns are totally corrupt anyways (ie, maxed out at 90%).

 

[WackenOpenAir]

So with that core, we cannot build other cities inside this: circle

 

[Xevious]

Well, the position of the new capital or FP i am now quite sure about. It should look like the first dotmap.

I am completely certain philly will not suffer if we leader rush or hand build the FP there with cities at distance 4.

If we jump the palace with a FP in philly, philly will certainly be ok and have a lower corruption than it has now.

Philly will be ok either way.


What remains is that we will have 2 cores. No matter which core is which, the one around the capital will be in the 20-30% corruption range, the one around the FP will be in the 40-60% range.

Now the question is what does it matter which of the 2 cores is the lowest corruption core. and how will we be able to set up that second core fastest.

I like the FP in Philly and jump the palace, but we should probably try and build what we can (courthouses, libraries, etc) in the cities around Washington before jumping the palace. I will try my best to get my turns in tonight.

 

[Wotan]

So where do we go from here?

With Wackens first dot map and leader rush the FP in the "center dot"?

Hand build FP in Philly and jump capital to "center dot"?

Hand build FP in Philly and jump capital to "greener pastures" in the north?

Other solution?

 

[grahamiam]

So with that core, we cannot build other cities inside this: circle

I think, that as long as we ensure that the rank corruption of our FP (Philly) is below the OCN (which is 16? for this map (not sure)), then we should have 2 effective cores.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Oh, i just thought of another thing:

If we jump the palace, the circle where we cannot have cities will be much bigger than when we rush the FP. Also will the circle then be in the centre of the map and pretty much cover the complete map.

Therefore, it is preferable not to jump the palace.

so i suggest:

With Wackens first dot map and leader rush the FP in the "center dot"?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think, that as long as we ensure that the rank corruption of our FP (Philly) is below the OCN (which is 16? for this map (not sure)), then we should have 2 effective cores.

Yes, but any extra cities inside that circle will harm the second core more than the city can do good. Unless maybe we capture some big size city in floodplanes where we can support 5 scientists.

PS: I do not yet completely rule out handbuilding the palace. If we build the city there early and not yet add any other cities between it and the capital (only settle 4 northernmost cities), under republic it way be like 60% corrupt or so. This will build the FP in like 50 turns or so. That might even be faster than waiting for a leader, we shall see that a little bit later though, some jungle needs to cut before we can attempt to do anything with the city anyway.

I suggest leaving that northern most river open for our enemies to take, as long as they have space to settle there, they won't come trough our territory to settle in our jungle.

 

[grahamiam]

Ok, if the FP is the red dot in post #89 by WOA, then the FP should be the modified OCN# from the palace.

Looking at the editor, for a small map, the OCN is 17. Multiply that by 0.8 for emperor, and you get and OCN of 13 (rounding down to be safe). So, the FP city should be the 13th closest city to our palace. Right now, we have at least 6 cities that will be closer. I can calculate the expected corruption at approximately that dot location, but I must take my children for a walk first

 

[dmanakho]

I thought i haven't visited the forum for a week, but no you guys manages to put more post in one day that i could have imagined.
Certainly an interesting discussion about corruption and palace jumps and i doubt i will add anything new after everything you've said.
so.... so far i was in agreement with G-Man on how i understand corruption in C3C.
I also thought second core isn't really possible with C3C it's just one bigger core due to a larger number of OCN after FP is built and frankly i've been getting lost reading your posts often contradicting each other.

Oh well... we have short term plans to achieve (republic, collosus etc.)
so i'll keep my attention on that part and let you guys do the rocket science part.

 

[USMC]

I don't mean to intrude, but I'd like to ask a few questions. I understand that this forum is for Team Wacken and not Team Wacken's lurkers. Would the team mind if I ask a question here and there? If it's not in the spirit of the competition I'll just lurk silently and ask later on.

 

[dmanakho]

Sure.... go ahead ask... personally i am not bothered by friendly lurker's questions at all

 

[USMC]

What remains is that we will have 2 cores. No matter which core is which, the one around the capital will be in the 20-30% corruption range, the one around the FP will be in the 40-60% range.

Do you mean for the duration of the game or just during Despotism? I must admit that I havent played above regent, so it's possible that this is just the level of corruption at higher difficulty levels.

 

[grahamiam]

well, I am trying to calculate that atm, but it looks like it will be better than that in Republic. I'm grinding out some calcs on a spreadsheet I created Feb '04, when I was trying to come to grips with the new corruption model that C3C introduced.

ok, i started the fun, and now I can't stop

here's the layout to WOA's 1st map (I think this is the one we're following):

colors will be refered to in my next post.