Shadow gauntlet start

[valergrad]

How about playing HOF current gauntlet start as a shadow game?
As it has been explained - you can't sent this into HOF later, but that doesn't matter if I can learn something.

Let's start... the gauntlet for this month is:

Spoiler options :

I have chosen this options:

no barbarians - should make game easier,
low sea level - looks like it should allow to have more cities,
temperate climate - to be honest have no idea how it affect the map,
sneaky continents - probably it should give more territory at start island?
If some of this options are not good, please tell, it's not too late to change it)

Then I've set up map finder with very easy condition '2 food + 1 commerce' and it gave me a lot of options.
Some looks very perspective.
What do you think about this ones? Quadruple gold + marble! And another one could allow me to create AMPHIBIOUS ELEPHANTS. Some others looks interesting as well.

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Score victory is usually gonna be a combination of grabbing as much land, population, and wonders by a reasonable date. Earlier finishes can boost your score but it is kind of a balance as you need to expand, conquer, and grow. At a certain date, you start to have diminishing returns. I think that would be around 1300-1400 but don't remember exactly. Domination or Conquest is usually going to be your best result. You will try to get as close to the Domination thresholds as possible.

All these starts are okay, except maybe the tundra/fur start as I bet the land will be poor overall. The stone will be helpful for fast wonder, and you should have an easy go of them at this level. Same for the marble start as well.

My first inclination is to like the double corn start the best simply as you avoid early wb builds and can build worker first. (coastal starts are generally always the slowest) Besides that the first start with marble is nice. I would settle on marble first which would allow for a fast start including a faster first wb > then go worker while teching straight to BW. You may think "but I want all that gold in my cap". It is really not that big a deal to have all that gold especially since the cap really is not gonna be able to work all that early anyway. Another city to the W can be more of the gold city.

Post some saves too.

oh...Great Lighthouse is a must...with that, you will be able to expand freely across the map. You can probably settle a buncha cities early and then when ya get CS/Machinery kill as much of the map as possible with Berzerks which will be super-strong here with their attacks from boats. AIs are gonna be super slow on this level so an early conquest is likely not all that essential unless an AI just needs to be removed as they are cramping your expansion for some reason.

This is a small map but I'd set a goal to have as many cities as feasibly possible by 1AD.

 

[lymond]

Coupla other things:

1) You can have up to 7 AIs on a small map. I would add at least 2 more if not all 7. More AIs decrease dom limits which can mean faster dom, though not sure if that is critical. However, another component of that is more AIs mean more stuff to conquer later.

2) Civil Service Oracle sling is a good play on this level. It is certainly possible on this level though you just never know if an AI will build before you get the requirements. Monty starts with Myst, so could be a threat for Oracle . However, he doesn't tend to prioritize religion techs early, or wonders for that matter. Same for Boudi. when adding more AIs I would avoid zealots with myst starts - think Izzy, Justy, and Gandhi, and especially AIs with Myst and Industrious like Capac.

 

[sampsa]

I wouldn't play a start without extra city center. I'd look for plains hill marble/stone to settle on.

 

[valergrad]

I would add at least 2 more if not all 7. More AIs decrease dom limits which can mean faster dom

Hmm... But aren't we desiring to slow down the domination victory? I mean, score depends mostly on total population of your empire, so you would want to get as much cities as possible, but not exceeding the domination limit. So, the higher will be the limit - it is better, isn't it?

But I agree, that adding good leaders - Gandhi or Mansa coming into my mind - could be a good idea. On my first attempt I am running now I was at island with Shaka and Monty, and crazy Monty already declared war to both of us. Sharing island with somebody more sensible could be much more pleasant.

 

[lymond]

Hmm... But aren't we desiring to slow down the domination victory? I mean, score depends mostly on total population of your empire, so you would want to get as much cities as possible, but not exceeding the domination limit. So, the higher will be the limit - it is better, isn't it?

But I agree, that adding good leaders - Gandhi or Mansa coming into my mind - could be a good idea. On my first attempt I am running now I was at island with Shaka and Monty, and crazy Monty already declared war to both of us. Sharing island with somebody more sensible could be much more pleasant.

lol..having those two psychos on your starting landmass is not ideal, but should be manageable.

"Slowing down" is relative. On this level, you should be able to fairly easily control your domination victory. For the "fastest" victory more AIs would def help, but this is "Score" so I agree that is not the priority. I still might add at least one or two more AIs.

Not that Gandhi and Mansa can be threats to Oracle>CS sling

 

[valergrad]

Okay... Probably we can't skip quadruple gold + marble start.
Looking at that start again ( after moving scout ) - where should I settle?

SIP will give 3 golds in capital - though it would be hard to work on them.
Settle on marble will give +1 hammer ( am i right?), but would lose 2 gold mines for capital. Also it will save one forest for chopping.
And third option - is SW on gold. It is losing one move, but have advantages of both 1st and 2nd option.

 

[chinemol]

SW seems an excellent cap short and medium term. I'd say open with worker first, mining, BW. you can grow alternatively grow and whip a WB, but it comes late. slowbuilding a WorkBoat is not out of the question, but first would be my option. worker can mine till chops come in.
SInce this is archipelago, priority goes to getting the great lighthouse. I'm putting the chops into WB, so you'll have little production to allocate to it except for whipping and working gold tiles, a marble and a 2 hammer city center.
As a general strategy, you are going for score. in order to prevent AI's from reaching winning conditions such as spaceship, I'd go full viking and raze capital and major cities, leaving the AI's alive. As such, beelining your unique unit would be a priority.
I wouldn't depend on the oracle, I would on TGL.
Good luck

 

[sampsa]

I'm not sure if this start is even in the top half of the ones you shared a screenshot on. Even for a fishing starter, in general land>sea. Yes multiple gold is HOF-stuff, but then you'd need to be able to steal workers to really benefit from them.

For me it's between 1E and 1SW and intuitively 1E because it's 1T faster. I think SIP is just slow. The awesome thing in this start is coastal fish that you can work starting from T9.

 

[valergrad]

Okay, we having 2 votes for setting on marble and 1 vote for SW.
Thinking myself I starting to incline on setting on marble as well. 1 move - it is 1 move right now. The advantage of having 2 gold mines in capital vicinity probably overestimated.
I was hoping that I'll get extra commerce on setting on mine, but test shown that it did not happen ( previously I avoided settling on mine so hard that even didn't know this ).
Another advantage setting on marble is that capital will have 6 forests in vicinity, and on gold - just two.

Now we need to decide on two things - what to build, and what to research.

First build is quite obvious, right? Looks like fish workboat can't be overpassed by anything.
For 30hammers you get +3 food/turn. I am using approximately in my estimates formula: 1 food = 0.6 hammer = 0.3 commerce , so fish wb costs 18 food and gives 3, and it pays off in just 7 turns ( one turn to reach fish). And worker costs approx. 60 foodhammers ( i can now estimate like half food/half hammers), and before learn mathematics can chop with speed 20 hammers/4 turn = 5h/turn. So, worker requires about 48/5 = 10 turns to pay off and therefore is worse than not only fish wb, but even clam wb, if you work on this wb all the time.
It's hard to estimate what is settler pays off time, but it seems that anyway it will be more than 6/9 turns, so settler doesn't looks good for a first build.

Research question also seems not complicated.
Obvious choice is Mining + BW.
Wheel + Pottery will allow us to build granaries, but without slavery we anyway will never build it.
The same thing for Sailing and Lighthouse.

 

[sampsa]

Yes wb working max -tile is obvious to me. Mining-BW feels correct.

I am using approximately in my estimates formula: 1 food = 0.6 hammer = 0.3 commerce

It varies quite a bit of course, depending on what you need. I think your formula undervalues quite a bit - I mean early on I'd nearly always favor 22 to 21 (I know the governor disagrees!).

 

[valergrad]

Yes wb working max -tile is obvious to me. Mining-BW feels correct.


It varies quite a bit of course, depending on what you need. I think your formula undervalues quite a bit - I mean early on I'd nearly always favor 22 to 21 (I know the governor disagrees!).

Agree on this that this numbers are approximate and I am using them only when I have no clear goal...
The idea of 1 = 2 is that most of the time you can 'sell' one hammer on 2 coins with wonder failed gold.
But this is approximate, of course, as this gold is delayed, there are production modifier, commerce modifiers etc. etc. I believe everybody has it's own formula...

Anyway, let's start!

T1: Settling on gold, hammers to the max for the fastest wb.
T6 - I am changing working tile from 1f 2h to 2f 1h, as it will not delay workboat, but 2 extra food allow later to grow one turn faster.
T7 - Started Bronze Working
T8 - Tricky choice. Workboat finished, now we need to decide: to build second workboat or to build first worker? Worker could chop and it will allow to make settler slightly faster. Workboat also a good option, i believe it will boost the technologies there.
Need to sleep with this choice.

 

[sampsa]

Without doing any calculations, worker now and start chopping (another boat? then settler). Faster expansion pays back well.

 

[valergrad]

Without doing any calculations, worker now and start chopping (another boat? then settler). Faster expansion pays back well.

Okay)
Started to produce a worker.

T10. Met Boudica. Looks like she is on another island. Also somebody founded Hinduism.

T13. Forest grown near Nidaros! That's nice.
T17. Done with worker. Moved him to start chopping. What forests I need to chop? I believe I need to chop forests that are to the east. There is a possibility that we could use western woods for the fast granary for the second city, right?
T18. Done with Bronze working. So, now neighborhood looks like this:

What are plans for the next 15-20 moves?
1. First we probably need immediately switch to Slavery.
2. For the techs: I am inclined to learn Wheel & Pottery for the Granary. And then Sailing for the Lighthouse. Other suggestions?
3. For the builds. Now worker will chop massive amounts of hammers. Where should I put it first? We can build workboats, or we can try to create as fast settler as possible.
Typically I would do boats first, but some can say it is delaying the settler. Looks like this time I am the only one on the island, so no worker steals but also I can completely skip military for most of the game.

 

[sampsa]

What I'd do: skip wheel and pottery for a while. I think sailing is a higher priority (trade via coast saves a lot of workerT). Chops should go mostly to settlers/workers in general. Next city spots on coastal gold and in NW between fish and gold. Have you considered Oracle? Should be able to take pretty much what you please (Civil Service? Philosophy?). Maybe fish/gold could save 3 forest for Oracle.

 

[jorissimo]

Okay)
Started to produce a worker.

T10. Met Boudica. Looks like she is on another island. Also somebody founded Hinduism.
View attachment 709904

T13. Forest grown near Nidaros! That's nice.
T17. Done with worker. Moved him to start chopping. What forests I need to chop? I believe I need to chop forests that are to the east. There is a possibility that we could use western woods for the fast granary for the second city, right?
T18. Done with Bronze working. So, now neighborhood looks like this:

View attachment 709907

What are plans for the next 15-20 moves?
1. First we probably need immediately switch to Slavery.
2. For the techs: I am inclined to learn Wheel & Pottery for the Granary. And then Sailing for the Lighthouse. Other suggestions?
3. For the builds. Now worker will chop massive amounts of hammers. Where should I put it first? We can build workboats, or we can try to create as fast settler as possible.
Typically I would do boats first, but some can say it is delaying the settler. Looks like this time I am the only one on the island, so no worker steals but also I can completely skip military for most of the game.

Spoiler :

I think now is a good time to start thinking about a second city. One idea I have is to go sailing for coast connections outside your borders. You need it for the GLH anyway and it means you can skip the wheel. You just need to finish revealing all of the coast tiles along the SW peninsula and then I would settle city 2 between NW fish and gold, because you already have the tech to improve both.

 

[jorissimo]

What I'd do: skip wheel and pottery for a while. I think sailing is a higher priority (trade via coast saves a lot of workerT). Chops should go mostly to settlers/workers in general. Next city spots on coastal gold and in NW between fish and gold. Have you considered Oracle? Should be able to take pretty much what you please (Civil Service? Philosophy?). Maybe fish/gold could save 3 forest for Oracle.

Beat me to it!

 

[sampsa]

Oh also I wouldn't immediately switch to slavery, either when a settler is on the move or much much later. Without a granary no need to whip much. With gold no need to whip.

Certainly not 3 boats before settler. I think 43 is so good you should build 2nd boat, but not sure.

 

[valergrad]

Regarding sailing - I definitely want to have it!
I just thought that having "pottery first" would be more efficient. I mean, even if sailing will go 3rd - after Wheel and Pottery, it will probably arrive around T35 - approximately almost the same time when 2-nd settler will land. We are playing on prince, not deity) Or may be I can rush settler to make it even faster? Need to calculate...

Do you think that we don't need Granaries at all? Yes, we can save 184 beakers to skip this two, but how can we spend them more efficiently? I look at techs and don't see anything that can give the same boost for the cost of 184 beakers.

Regarding wonders... Of course I want Oracle ( Oracle Civil Services would be perfect, but I don't know if it is too optimistic on prince), I want GLH and Colossus. It would be hard to get all 3 ( looks like no copper at this island). In most of my games I also usually build Stonehenge, but without stone it may be doesn't worth it...

 

[sampsa]

Do you need granaries now - depends if your cities should be building them or settlers/workers. For example in west gold spot you have no 1st ring forest (unless the tile under the fog is one) and slow building a granary is a very long project, taking all the resources of the city. And after a granary you need to be able to grow quickly and whip. Depends on if you have good spots to expand into. Granaries are good (long term), but expansion can be more important.

You can use those to oracle something better, for example. You can get GLH earlier.