labrynianrebel
Warlord
Strange that they're all Empires except Shoshone, Zulu Kingdom and Venetian Republic...
Share Your First BNW Experiences Here
- Thread starter Lorf Yimzo
- Start date
PhilBowles
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 5,333
I was surprised how much Trade Routes worked with religion. I was skeptical of Indonesia's candy at first, but looking at my own, Portuguese, cities and how many religions they're getting from Trade Routes, I'd dare say that the candy would be absolutely... Delicious.
I actually made a mistake in my playthrough and didn't make my only river city one of my trade hubs - it started out with Buddhism as well as my native Hinduisim, but the poor old Buddhists got driven out it seems. It's still respectable: +4 faith per turn with a single religion, and the importance of GPs these days makes a Garden a worthwhile choice in its own right.
Overall, very impressed by Indonesia. I've now founded two of my off-continent city allowance in my second playthrough, and those extra resources have been absolutely invaluable - the copy to boost gpt, the main ones for happiness I find I very much need (but in happy periods I trade those two). And I made do with one of those cities for much of the game - there is no way you need to found all three to get an important bonus from your UA.
No wars yet this game, so only one of my three former kris swordsmen knows what his promotion is, but the mechanic's so much fun I can even forgive Firaxis for giving them magic daggers.
Very, very true. You want diplomatic effects from religion? How about World Religion? How about the way it interacts with spreading religion, such that you want to become the majority religion in as many civs as possible so that they'll vote for it (because otherwise in large maps everyone will vote against any World Religion proposal). Faith effects in late game, faith-buying GPs of particular late-game importance. Reformation beliefs. As an aside on that one, Convert the Heathen is ridiculously overpowered with the numbers and variety of barbarians you get now. You get a quest to clear a barb camp? Just send a missionary to stand next to it. Not sure if this was a bug, since it's described as working only with adjacent units, but I actually got one turn where a single missionary convered four barbarian riflemen - two next to him, two a tile further away. And did it right at the start of the turn, because they'd moved next to him.
When people said Germany is now irrelevant I thought they were comparing with the Zulu. But no, Convert the Heathen gives you a better effect than the German UA all by itself.
A couple of thoughts on balance:
- Production trade routes are too weak because they don't scale into the late game (nor do food routes, but 4 food is never unwelcome. 4 production a turn in the era of public schools is a joke), or with the output of the originating city.
- I think Great Musicians may be too limited in comparison with the other types. Great Writers can always be used because amphitheaters are important buildings, and everyone gets Oxford and National Epic. Also, the culture boost ability is important for any civ because culture is needed defensively. Great Artists are somewhat reliant on getting Wonders because otherwise they're confined to museums, however Golden Ages are always good. But Musicians have one building, few Wonders, and the tourism spam ability is only useful in the specific case that you're going for culture victory. It can help fend off competing ideologies' influence, but it's not clear (at least to me) that it achieves a better result than a Writer's book tour. In summary: Writers are great all round, Artists are good (but mostly because of Golden Ages) and can be situationally very good because most Art buildings/Wonders get theming bonuses, Musicians need work.
meowschwitz
Warlord
I've played two games (King Arabia Diplo Win, Emperor Shoshone Science Win) so far and I think it'd be a good idea if we post any initial criticisms of the game we have so far.
1. The propensity for more peaceful games have made non domination games a lot easier.
2. Diplo win still seems relatively easy as it's just a matter of assuring you control the CS, something that you should try and do most of the time anyway as they provide useful bonuses for any victory. Also, getting these allies seems like it's gotten even easier with the large amounts of easy to complete quests. I think they influence boost should be toned down for a lot of the smaller quests but maybe i'm missing something.
(also it seems that the AI rarely completes quests for CS that aren't stockpile culture/faith/science; Do they get their own quests that we can't see? I was always curious of that.)
3. Diplo and Culture play seems to go hand in hand as their finishing techs are both unlocked off of the same tech (telecommunications?). This seems to make them feel like they go hand in hand rather than being distinct like previously. Maybe The Internet tech should go more towards the middle of the tree or require computers?
4. On my King game I hadn't unlocked Aesthetics or Exploration and was still 1 AI (albeit relatively far, probably 30-40 turns away) from winning the new culture victory. I'm not sure if I was just teching really fast and was simply starting to runaway or that the tourism system is kinda easy. The emperor game was a bit tougher but even then I was doing surprisingly well (5/10 AI influential)
5. Also, how come we can swap great works willy nilly without any input from the AI? I could choose any of their works and they'd automatically swap with me for anything I could give them. Worse is that I never had them ask me to swap during the game when they'd undoubtedly need to. That bodes ill for AI france if they can't properly swap works. I understand why it's needed, but it should also require more investment if you're doing well in tourism. I.E. I'm just starting to become influential with the first AI and the others are still willing to just trade so I could get a radical theme bonus in my museum. It's the only new mechanic so far that seems like it was lazily implemented out of many many new things.
anyway, that's my critiques, feel free to add to the list or correct me as two games is still a small sample size. Also sorry about the wall of text.
1. The propensity for more peaceful games have made non domination games a lot easier.
2. Diplo win still seems relatively easy as it's just a matter of assuring you control the CS, something that you should try and do most of the time anyway as they provide useful bonuses for any victory. Also, getting these allies seems like it's gotten even easier with the large amounts of easy to complete quests. I think they influence boost should be toned down for a lot of the smaller quests but maybe i'm missing something.
(also it seems that the AI rarely completes quests for CS that aren't stockpile culture/faith/science; Do they get their own quests that we can't see? I was always curious of that.)
3. Diplo and Culture play seems to go hand in hand as their finishing techs are both unlocked off of the same tech (telecommunications?). This seems to make them feel like they go hand in hand rather than being distinct like previously. Maybe The Internet tech should go more towards the middle of the tree or require computers?
4. On my King game I hadn't unlocked Aesthetics or Exploration and was still 1 AI (albeit relatively far, probably 30-40 turns away) from winning the new culture victory. I'm not sure if I was just teching really fast and was simply starting to runaway or that the tourism system is kinda easy. The emperor game was a bit tougher but even then I was doing surprisingly well (5/10 AI influential)
5. Also, how come we can swap great works willy nilly without any input from the AI? I could choose any of their works and they'd automatically swap with me for anything I could give them. Worse is that I never had them ask me to swap during the game when they'd undoubtedly need to. That bodes ill for AI france if they can't properly swap works. I understand why it's needed, but it should also require more investment if you're doing well in tourism. I.E. I'm just starting to become influential with the first AI and the others are still willing to just trade so I could get a radical theme bonus in my museum. It's the only new mechanic so far that seems like it was lazily implemented out of many many new things.
anyway, that's my critiques, feel free to add to the list or correct me as two games is still a small sample size. Also sorry about the wall of text.
Religions go faster now on the higher difficulties; my first game I built a shrine after monument and bought a temple ( beelinng education) and still didn't get it on immortal standard. The Zulu built Hague Sophia for the fifth and final religion.
Oncei got the hang of themes and bonuses it was a lot of fun. I did a one city domination game. Brazil is an absolute cultural monster and almost overwhelmed me culturally. My favorite part of the game was when brazil and I broke the hearts of Nebby and Seong and voted in the world congress to decrease great scientists by 33 percent.
BNW is awesome and is a definite upgrade
Oncei got the hang of themes and bonuses it was a lot of fun. I did a one city domination game. Brazil is an absolute cultural monster and almost overwhelmed me culturally. My favorite part of the game was when brazil and I broke the hearts of Nebby and Seong and voted in the world congress to decrease great scientists by 33 percent.
BNW is awesome and is a definite upgrade
Yngvi
Chevalier du Tastevin
Still playing my initial game: Poland, Huge, Epic, Emperor, Continents. Approaching the dawn of the Atomic age. A few more random observations:
Earlier, right at the edge of the Renaissance, everybody was still being nice. Soon after, Napoleon began to spam cities, Shoshone went wonder happy, and Dandy turned out to be a real religious freak. Give them time, they will start to be their old annoying selves.
Wonders are hard to get. It was not until the Industrial Era that I managed to get a single one; Pocatello got most of them, but then I had a streak: Louvre, Porcelain Tower, Eiffel Tower, Broadway. I'm going for science, no way I can beat the culture powerhouse that is Shoshone, but I'm grabbing what I can to spoil things for him.
Ideology is not having nearly as much effect on politics as I thought; DoFs are crossing ideological lines routinely.
Civs seem to be more reluctant to go down to guarded or hostile, but they can get there. There has been a nice amount of war, but far less war for its own sake; the causes build gradually.
The pace definitely seems slower, but maybe because there is so much going on. The game is totally absorbing. G&K was a huge step beyond vanilla, and BNW is proving to be an even larger step beyond G&K.
Earlier, right at the edge of the Renaissance, everybody was still being nice. Soon after, Napoleon began to spam cities, Shoshone went wonder happy, and Dandy turned out to be a real religious freak. Give them time, they will start to be their old annoying selves.
Wonders are hard to get. It was not until the Industrial Era that I managed to get a single one; Pocatello got most of them, but then I had a streak: Louvre, Porcelain Tower, Eiffel Tower, Broadway. I'm going for science, no way I can beat the culture powerhouse that is Shoshone, but I'm grabbing what I can to spoil things for him.
Ideology is not having nearly as much effect on politics as I thought; DoFs are crossing ideological lines routinely.
Civs seem to be more reluctant to go down to guarded or hostile, but they can get there. There has been a nice amount of war, but far less war for its own sake; the causes build gradually.
The pace definitely seems slower, but maybe because there is so much going on. The game is totally absorbing. G&K was a huge step beyond vanilla, and BNW is proving to be an even larger step beyond G&K.
meowschwitz
Warlord
6. (I forgot this one) I feel that food and hammer trade routes should be determined by the food and hammer resource davailability in the sending citiy. That would give Bonus resources more importance while also potentially nerfing internal routes in a fair strategic way.
HeraldtheGreat
King
7. It might be a good idea to be able to sell Great Works to culture focused Civs for GPT when you're not focusing on tourism, ran out of slots or are running a 10-GPT defecit.
8. Being able to swap all those artifacts for a piece of writing or art might be nice.
9. A less crazy-mad AI Poland!
8. Being able to swap all those artifacts for a piece of writing or art might be nice.
9. A less crazy-mad AI Poland!
I think that hits the nail on the head, there'res just so much to do between turns
Morningcalm
Keeper of Records
11. The unique civilization musical themes don't play in the background except at key moments (start of the game, reloading a game, get into first war with a civ). I would prefer it if the unique civ musical themes would also continue from what point you were at previously, rather than having each theme start all over again every time you click a leader. We want to get to the epic parts of each track!
12. Too much peace. I never thought I'd say that. But the AI seems to value trade routes SO MUCH that they rarely declare on you now, unless you purposely anger them...we need to get to that point in Civ IV where the AI is relatively balanced between peace and warmongering anger. Still, I guess this is better than the constant war declarations of past Civ V games.
13. The scenarios aren't all that interesting or fun, frankly.
14. The UI for the World Congress and Great Works are hard to understand and navigate, and player tips concerning them (a "how to use") are not included in Help.
12. Too much peace. I never thought I'd say that. But the AI seems to value trade routes SO MUCH that they rarely declare on you now, unless you purposely anger them...we need to get to that point in Civ IV where the AI is relatively balanced between peace and warmongering anger. Still, I guess this is better than the constant war declarations of past Civ V games.
13. The scenarios aren't all that interesting or fun, frankly.
14. The UI for the World Congress and Great Works are hard to understand and navigate, and player tips concerning them (a "how to use") are not included in Help.
Princeofnigeria
The illustrious
Played 2 games:
Poland resign (I spawned all alone on an island with only 3CS to keep me company, one of which I killed, and a single horse. Found germany in the 900's, took a city, then lost it later due to unhappiness making my army moot. also statue of zues. Got too bored by 1140AD to continue.
Zulu diplo victory (spawned with no enemies or CS in a 20 hex radius, sacked half the ottoman empire, made friends with siam celts and after a long time persia, and cruised my way to an easy diplo win making more money than I could spend and with an obsevatory in 1/2 of my cities due to many mountains, making me keep up with tech.)
16. I don't know if somethig is wrong with the mapping or what because I keep starting out absurdly isolated.
17. I was happy with the level of war in G+K, (about one each era), even though I've only won two conquest victories. It gives me something to focus on, allows me to use creativity and math to plan out the best defensive positions, and gave me something for my massive cities to do (the ones that have built everything). Now the AI just sits around and build. Sulieman had a grand total of two units in his four city empire. TWO! SULIEMAN! That is unacceptable. I only ever got into wars I started, and the ones I did were cake walks.
18. All the new sides minus Brazil, new france, Venice, and portugal (6/9 or 6/10 or 3/5, depending on how you slice it) seem way overpowered, and have so many bonuses that stack on top of eachother that it's ridiculous.
19. New opening is boring as all get out.
20. I haven't truly figured out the tourism system yet, so I'll hold my tongue on that one.
Poland resign (I spawned all alone on an island with only 3CS to keep me company, one of which I killed, and a single horse. Found germany in the 900's, took a city, then lost it later due to unhappiness making my army moot. also statue of zues. Got too bored by 1140AD to continue.
Zulu diplo victory (spawned with no enemies or CS in a 20 hex radius, sacked half the ottoman empire, made friends with siam celts and after a long time persia, and cruised my way to an easy diplo win making more money than I could spend and with an obsevatory in 1/2 of my cities due to many mountains, making me keep up with tech.)
16. I don't know if somethig is wrong with the mapping or what because I keep starting out absurdly isolated.
17. I was happy with the level of war in G+K, (about one each era), even though I've only won two conquest victories. It gives me something to focus on, allows me to use creativity and math to plan out the best defensive positions, and gave me something for my massive cities to do (the ones that have built everything). Now the AI just sits around and build. Sulieman had a grand total of two units in his four city empire. TWO! SULIEMAN! That is unacceptable. I only ever got into wars I started, and the ones I did were cake walks.
18. All the new sides minus Brazil, new france, Venice, and portugal (6/9 or 6/10 or 3/5, depending on how you slice it) seem way overpowered, and have so many bonuses that stack on top of eachother that it's ridiculous.
19. New opening is boring as all get out.
20. I haven't truly figured out the tourism system yet, so I'll hold my tongue on that one.
meowschwitz
Warlord
Thanks for continuing the numbering guys!
but yeah the UI is probably my next biggest complaint as it just doesn't feel as intuitive as say the Social Policy or Religion screens. I'm still waiting to see if I've just got lucky with a lot of peace or if every AI is just so worried about the WC and trade routes that they rarely do it. I expanded like crazy and right up against peoples' borders stealing their just out of reach resources and they rarely cared.
15. oh and I need mod updates to come out stat!
werothegreat
Warlord
Re: 2)
It's rather hard to get CS's as allies when the World Congress bans Trade Routes with them, and that's all the CS's ever ask for in quests.
It's rather hard to get CS's as allies when the World Congress bans Trade Routes with them, and that's all the CS's ever ask for in quests.
kingchris20
Wisdom Seeker
16. You should be able to delete/remove/or otherwise sell artifacts, I went digger crazy and now I have a bunch if artifacts that are taking up more valuable GWoA slots. Or put more uses for artifacts - besides the natural 2 tourism and base buildings, there is only one wonder that accepts artifacts...
meowschwitz
Warlord
I guess you'll see how OP Brazil and new frace can be :soon enough.
meowschwitz
Warlord
but if you're allied with them you'll have the delegates to never let that pass. Maybe I need to play with more than 11 civs
Honestly the WC felt real easy to just force your will upon once you got even a little ahead. I forced through world idealogy early (only 1 other civ had one) and just bought everyone's votes.
meowschwitz
Warlord
You can still get themeing bonuses from them in museums but that's even harder when you can't trade them since you won't be able to maneuver them very well. Honestly, the swapping artifacts is probably the biggest thing that will need a patch. It's easy to game one hand but inflexible with artifacts.
I don't know are turn 15 CBs good?
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