Shiem - PryeZombie Way too good?

[Imuratep]

I'm not convinced of this supposed horseman solution. Firstly there is the opportunity cost of not researching CoL/Sanitation/Religious tech. Secondly, I think a Str4 unit attacking a Str 5 unit with probable defense bonuses will be feeding XP or simply giving the Sheaim player an easy decision over which PZ to suicide against cities. If the horseman wins then I wouldn't give good odds on his survival. If the PZs are in unroaded forests/hills (probable in the early game) then the Horsemen may not even be able to withdraw properly.

Finally, what use are these giant horseman stacks except on defense?

Does Brigit have any fire immunities (Angel of fire etc)? Also, high unit level has been confirmed as reducing damage received in this situation.

1. NEVER have any forests in the first city ring of a border city.

2. A horseman with one upgrade has 45% withdrawal chance and so you lose only about every second new built rider, but also about every second rider manages to reach what you wanted - to damage your opponent. If you manage to withdraw you get another upgrade --> 65% withdrawal chance. These units certainly won't die as you can move them to another tile save from exploding PZs. With all PZs being damaged it shouldn't be a problem to kill those with other horsemen promoted with strength and shock (Or other units. See point 7).

3. Not getting killed is quite a fair trade for researching a tech that's not that expensive, so not being able to research a builder tech is not an argument for me. With that argument you could as well say: Why should I research bronze working? Iron working? Any tech that offers you a military advantage. Additionally horseback riding is on the same path as trade which boosts your research AND you can give your units mobility1 what's a good thing for builders (For example you can give disciples mobility1 to spread your religion more effectively) and for warmongers.

4. Horsemen can be built in every single city and can be brought near the attacked city very fast, so having that giant stacks of horsemen is not that hard. Your opponent moves only with one point of movement while your units move at least with 6 points of movement (including roads). His units need longer to get supplies. Often the AI attacks through the borders of another AI and thus ignore the logistic problem they will get in that war. With riders your logistic is always good.

5. Horsemen ARE a good offensive weapon because of their withdrawal chances, their mobility, their boni against archers, their ability to pillage important strategic resources without bigger efforts... I have won some games nearly exclusively using horsemen (in the late game I used horseriders but that was it)

6. If the Sheaim are adjectant to you from the beginning and you don't want the challenge of a PZ attack you have enough time to kill him with warriors. A warrior rush can be done by everyone and is not that hard to do.

7. There is another good strategy against PZs I often use. If they are still two tiles from the city you can move the other units you consider to able to kill the PZs on a tile next to the city with a road. The turn after you move them indivually into the city and attack the PZs. This way you can assure your other good attackers don't get any damage by exploding PZs as they are safe on another tile. Additionally if you give the attacker mobility1 you can even move him back to the tile from where he came from to assure the explosion damage of later units doesn't kill him. This strategy can be combined very effectively with the huge horsemen stacks as it'll be easier to find apted attackers as after the attack of the withdrawal horsemen PZs are weakened.

Concerning Brigit:
I found that save game and I had promoted Brigit with magic resistance (20%) and fire resistance (50%). With the knowledge that the Angel promotion gives 20% fire resistance it's clear why she wasn't damaged a lot.

 

[Senethro]

Far too many hypotheticals or unrealistic assumptions there. You are not going to have an equally sized horseman stack to the PZs. For every Stable you build, the Sheaim player builds two PZ. They'll be producing PZ from 3/4 cities while horsemen will be produced from 2ish.

You do not have the workers to remove all forests from all cities, nor would I want to. I'd rather take my chances with spamming units from Lumbermills extra production.

You didn't address that a human Sheaim player can be placing PZs such that withdrawal will be less functional.

Bronze working is not just a military tech. Its an offensive tech, (Axemen) defensive tech, (Bronze Warriors) Economic tech, (leads to Sanitation, Smelting). The metal line is the centre around which all the other lines rotate. Only a small number of tactics allow you to ignore it (my favorite being Rust adepts). HBR gets you Trade (important in an FFA, en route to Emp/CoE, otherwise low priority).

The big problem is not that you'll lose a border city which any axeman rush can do, its that you'll lose your capital or second city. If you're going to try to muscle an aggressor rather than use specialist defenders you need comparable unit numbers. If you use axemen vs. PZs its difficult to be everywhere at once and they simply go to whichever city has the least defenders. If you use Horsemen then you're relying on Bronze (if you're lucky) warriors for defense as Horsemen don't receive defensive bonuses. To contrast, I've seen surprising numbers of regular axemen vanish into 3 Guerilla Archers on a hill (Grey Fox is an infuriating turtle). But with PZs as long as you're willing to sacrifice the first 50% of the stack simply to cause collateral you'll probably take and raze the city. Given that you can lose a game from having an early city settled 10 turns later and 5 farms pillaged, losing one of your major cities is crippling.

 

[Jules.lt]

Spring dousing them (making them unable to explode for a number of turns, but otherwise unchanged) is still a fun tweak to add to the game, and provides an additional counter to PZ that isn't too unaccessible.

[/two cents]

 

[Aroldo]

Without going through all arguments against of for a nerf to these guys and all possible strategies already discussed, I have a question.

What is the original idea behiand PZs? It seems to me they´re amazing defenders and slow-moving but highly effective&cheap attackers - since they somehow have an attack than ignores city defences. What about giving defenders behind a palisade/city walls some kind of protection against their explosion damage?

Picking them off in the open with horsemen/mobile units is kind of a pain in the ass when big numbers are involved. Not so much fun, but perhaps reasonably balanced.

 

[Imuratep]

I didn't say ALL forests, but all forests in the first city ring (ok it's a bit harsh, perhaps I should add that are directing to enemy borders).

Against the AI the strategy works I'm sure I did it twice. I had about 30-35 riders and he had 20 PZs. The PZ all died while I had 15 riders and those were perfect for striking back against my opponent as they got experience. (Ok I was preparing for war anyway but I'm doing that always)

Against a human player it's something completely different. In a MP game you have to be able to defend very well far before PZ are buildable. Also a human player could use much nastier strategies than a PZ rush (already pointed out in one of those PZ threads).

The point with the stables really adresses something that deserves a change (if you are aggressive it's not really a problem) but not for the reasons you name: It removes something unique from another civilization, namely the Doviello. Giving PZ a building requirement keeps them still as strong as they are. Give Training Yard a different name that fits and perhaps a minor benefit like a creature for Planar Gate (perhaps a free PZ ) and the problem is solved. PZs themselves would be untouched.

But as I said before the discussion anyway is useless as after three threads it is quite clear that the team and the majority of the community does not think that PZs are overpowered and thus we can lead endless discussion without any results.
So the only way to get this changed is to find someone that likes to modmod it or to modmod it by yourself. Perhaps in the FF subforum it could find some supporters as they are still developping not tweaking.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Far too many hypotheticals or unrealistic assumptions there. You are not going to have an equally sized horseman stack to the PZs. For every Stable you build, the Sheaim player builds two PZ. They'll be producing PZ from 3/4 cities while horsemen will be produced from 2ish.

It isn't a hypothetical scenario. It has been done by many. It isn't hard. The problem with your assumption is that you forget to factor in time into the equation. First, you assume that the Sheaim will have 3/4 cities producing PZ's. That 660-880 hammers of settlers right there. They have had the chance to produce that much by the time they got bw? Second, you assume that all of the cities are heavily improved at bw. Well, factor in the cost of workers, and workers take quite a bit of time to improve land as well. The simple fact is, getting 3-4 cities with improved tiles, the production to produce a large stack of PZ's, and the economy to suppport said stacks (oh an economy too, that requires education and additional time to develope the cottages) will easily take well over a 100 turns on normal speed if you go the builder route (and the Sheaim don't have any particular advantages when it comes to warrior rushing, not even the aggressive trait). And during all that time, you think building stables will factor significantly into stack size?

Now, the Deity/Immortal AI may be able to pull off all of the above, but the deity/immortal AI is supposed to be imbalanced so...

 

[Imuratep]

Spring dousing them (making them unable to explode for a number of turns, but otherwise unchanged) is still a fun tweak to add to the game, and provides an additional counter to PZ that isn't too unaccessible.

[/two cents]

Good idea as it's a counter and not a nerf.

 

[Imuratep]

A side question: Is the free xp supposed to be a temporary solution until the team has finished the AI work or is it thought to be permanent?

 

[Senethro]

It isn't a hypothetical scenario. It has been done by many. It isn't hard. The problem with your assumption is that you forget to factor in time into the equation. First, you assume that the Sheaim will have 3/4 cities producing PZ's. That 660-880 hammers of settlers right there. They have had the chance to produce that much by the time they got bw? Second, you assume that all of the cities are heavily improved at bw. Well, factor in the cost of workers, and workers take quite a bit of time to improve land as well. The simple fact is, getting 3-4 cities with improved tiles, the production to produce a large stack of PZ's, and the economy to suppport said stacks (oh an economy too, that requires education and additional time to develope the cottages) will easily take well over a 100 turns on normal speed if you go the builder route (and the Sheaim don't have any particular advantages when it comes to warrior rushing, not even the aggressive trait). And during all that time, you think building stables will factor significantly into stack size?

Now, the Deity/Immortal AI may be able to pull off all of the above, but the deity/immortal AI is supposed to be imbalanced so...

Of course. I'm suggesting massed PZs in the early game, not a Doviello style axe rush. 5 PZs are not much worse than 5 axes, but 12-16PZs and some ragtag warrior followers are a capital killer. Thats about the point at which the 100 hammers/stable is going to hurt the most. So, the Sheaim are building PZs at the maximum rate all the time and their opponents must pay 2 Tier 2 units worth of hammers to increase their rate of production by one city.

And just to point out some assumptions in your own points: Settlers are not hammers. Settlers are mostly Agrarian food. Food is plentiful in the early game even when hammers are not. Once you hit those low happiness caps, what else are you going to spend that food on?

When does the opponent civ research HBR? Before or after BW? Before or after Edu/CoL? HBR is further off the well-worn path than BW, and all you get along the way are pastures. Early game health resources and an improvement equal to farms won't help you much.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Of course. I'm suggesting massed PZs in the early game, not a Doviello style axe rush. 5 PZs are not much worse than 5 axes, but 12-16PZs and some ragtag warrior followers are a capital killer. Thats about the point at which the 100 hammers/stable is going to hurt the most. So, the Sheaim are building PZs at the maximum rate all the time and their opponents must pay 2 Tier 2 units worth of hammers to increase their rate of production by one city.

And just to point out some assumptions in your own points: Settlers are not hammers. Settlers are mostly Agrarian food. Food is plentiful in the early game even when hammers are not. Once you hit those low happiness caps, what else are you going to spend that food on?

When does the opponent civ research HBR? Before or after BW? Before or after Edu/CoL? HBR is further off the well-worn path than BW, and all you get along the way are pastures. Early game health resources and an improvement equal to farms won't help you much.

So, kill some of the 12-16 PZ's before they reach your cities. Then they have around 5 Pz's left that, as you stated, aren't really worse than the same small number of axemen. And lets not pretend that it won't take a really long time to build 3 settlers and workers thereof. And who said the sheaim are building at a maximum rate. Cities take time to grow, mines take time to build, and all that good stuff. If your assuming that they have 3-4 fully developed early cities by BW then either A) You are researching BW very late or B) You have a ridiculously good start. If you were to plan on going for horseback riding, you could bypass BW for a bit with no real loss either... and no dependence on copper.

 

[JonathanStrange]

Man, I really hate Pyre Zombies!

Once, with my backagainst the wall, I cast "March of the Trees" as a last defense against the horde...

Wooden trees, fire.

Me? Left 4 dead.

 

[Senethro]

I'm not assuming 4 cities by BW, I'm assuming 4 cities as part of a normal expansion. (So, below Immortal then). The Sheaim would probably have CoL/KotE and half of Philosophy by the time the PZs arrived.

Why would you plan on going for HBR? And everyone has a dependence on copper.

 

[Iceciro]

I have never, ever seen PZs as a real threat except when playing Luchrip with my flammable front line troops.

They require some workarounds, but nomoreso than most other units that are unique. IF you could solve every problem with an equivilant hammer investment, it'd get boring quickly. Tactics should play in. And remember, after PZs the Sheaim are hilariously weak, as they get no late-tier units.

 

[Senethro]

In my first MP game I was mown down by Chris Str6 Spectre hordes around turn 220. That was back when I still hadn't grown out of City States/Cottages so I was 10 turns off Iron Working (Suffered lots of war damage to a 3rd player). Bronze axemen, even with Enchanted Blade, Dance of Blades, Courage, Haste, Golden Hammers, Orthus' Axe and pumped with experience from defeating a large stack of mutated Mimics did not fare well.

I've wondered how a rematch where I had Iron Battlemasters, a war religion and and Chariots to pillage his Death Nodes would have gone. Not much better I suspect, unless I ran away from the Mage stack and tried to kill his cities faster than he killed mine. I'm pretty sure he crushed me with the Spectres summoned while killing his previous victim, many of which had Empower IV. Tier 3 Sheaim are definitely terrifying.

 

[Aroldo]

The spring idea is nice. Keep the effect down to 1 turn, though.

 

[Humakty]

I bet this mod won't ever ever be fully balanced in MP. I know some other games like that, and the solution is always to use diplomacy to take out the actual number one civ (the best civ often changes with patches...)

 

[MasterofDisasta]

I'm guessing it's the case that pyre zombies themselves are not the real problem so much as the AI's general bonuses, and it's not worth taking PZ away from the Sheiam for.

I totally agree with Earthling here; it's not that pyre zombies themselves are too powerful its that the AI gets tons of powerful bonuses. After reading threads similar to this I tried a few games as the Sheaim using only pyre zombies to take down opposing cities. I quickly realized that it wasn't very cost effective and I couldn't afford to keep it up because I don't have the massive production bonuses the AI does.

Pyre zombies are no deadlier than fireballs, maelstrom, or ring of flames. If the AI could use magic effectively there would be much more dangerous threats than pyre zombie stacks. The only advantage pyre zombies have is they are an effective early weapon. However, as already said, horseback riding severly weakens them and by sorcery they are completely obsolete. That short early-game advantage is all the Sheaim get in exchange for sacrificing their entire metal line.

Basically, I say that pyre zombies are balanced from the player's perspective, and they seem unbalanced because they happen to be the weapon that works best with the AI's current stack spamming tactics.

 

[civ_king]

Sheaim need a rate increase from their portals...

 

[giddion]

Well it looks like I stirred a hornets nest.
I like all the strategies to counter the PZ's, but I still say that when Illians are up against Sheim with a very high difficulty, it is almost impossible to counter. You are unable to build units quickly enough to keep pace with the exploding PZ onslaught. The 50% extra fire damage is the killer. The slow spell is good but it does not always help as it can just get you trapped in enemy territory. When they are in a city it is impossible to siege safely.

I am not saying they are extremely broken but I would like to see some sort of defence. Why isn't there a chance for them to explode. At least this will reduce the number of popcorn lemmings. Maybe treat them like a national unit, not limited to 4, but the number allowed based on the difficulty level of the game and the map size. many of you would have a better idea of what is considered fair.

 

[Iceciro]

AI bonuses are what makes PZ spamming unable to be worked against. Play a total war game against Sheiam on Noble and see if you can't easily deal with PZs.