Shiem - PryeZombie Way too good?

[Trojan Sheep]

Nothing new has been said in this thread that wasn't said in the other two .

Pyre Zombies look dashing in man thongs.

There. Something new has been said.

Seriously though, the fact this comes up so much leads me to personally believe Pyre Zombies are one bit of FFH's unique balance scheme that is detracting from more people's fun than it is adding to, and honestly there's nothing keeping them from being balanced *and* flavorful. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. *shrugs*

 

[Honor]

I personally think Pyre Zombies are fine as they are (and I have had some badass Sheaim AI neighbors before in Emperor/Immortal). PZs aren't really that powerful if you are prepared for them.

But, I do understand they may be tougher to handle for casual players playing on lower difficulty levels, and not expecting the challenge that PZs present.

Is it possible to make PZs scale with game difficulty setings?

Edit: And I am not even close to a skillful player. There might have been some misunderstanding that I have been bragging or something. My intended tone actually was "even I can deal with PZs". Just a long-winded rant.

 

[xilr]

Consider how many times FfH2 has been downloaded. Consider the number of people complaining about PZs. I think its more likely that there are a handful of extremely vocal people posting about it every day than an actual problem existing. PZ's have been around forever and havent been a problem in the past. They are balanced and flavorful. I like them being in my games, and I dont pick the Sheaim any more often than I pick the other 4 races I like playing.

 

[slowcar]

PZ are a problem because they destroy heroes and high-level units just by exploding. for me it kind of destroys the heroic feeling of the game.
destroy undead is indeed awesome against them though, one of the main reasons why i put magic a good shelf higher.

 

[Ksi]

Consider how many times FfH2 has been downloaded. Consider the number of people complaining about PZs. I think its more likely that there are a handful of extremely vocal people posting about it every day than an actual problem existing. PZ's have been around forever and havent been a problem in the past. They are balanced and flavorful. I like them being in my games, and I dont pick the Sheaim any more often than I pick the other 4 races I like playing.

I fully agree. There are a couple people in this thread that do nothing but ask for nerfs. Every civ is not going to be equally effective against every civ. To close the gap requires skill level, not yelling "imba."

Pyre zombies are fine as they are. Especially after that nasty summoning nerf.

 

[Senethro]

Now see, if you'd been around here for as long as me you'd remember a time when Sheaim summoners didn't have Sundered or gave their units Combat 1 or have summons with Death Affinity. In the long term they've grown more powerful and 2 turn summons mean less micromanagement. Claiming that some people have some kind of vendetta against the Sheaim or are simply not skilful enough is just trolling.

Pyre Zombies: What else kills an impartial observer without fighting and what else wins when it loses?

 

[Honor]

Fireballs.

PS: Trolls hate them.

 

[Grey Fox]

Their collateral don't kill (and only affect a few units, not the entire stack like PZ). And they come way later. At the same time as the supposedly best counter to Pyre Zombies.

 

[Honor]

Oops. I am silently crawling back to my little nest, then.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The same way you counter them before life 2? The ability to move more then 3 tiles per turn (achieved through body 1, mobility 1, roads, etc.), collateral damage with cats (or trebuchet in the case of the khazad), stackbusters in general (Av priests, OO priests, chalid, Gibbon). Also, remember that by the time your enemy will have amassed a large quantity of PZ's, both you and your enemy would have advanced in terms of tech, and more options would be available.

And don't forget that the Khazad will have more of these options than most other civs, since their tech pace and production rate are both so good.

 

[Sephi]

PZ are a problem because they destroy heroes and high-level units just by exploding. for me it kind of destroys the heroic feeling of the game.
destroy undead is indeed awesome against them though, one of the main reasons why i put magic a good shelf higher.

1. open assets\python\entrypoints\Cvspellinterface.py
2. search for postCombatExplode
3. in the last line of the function (pUnit.doDamage) change the 100 to a 99

 

[Ksi]

Now see, if you'd been around here for as long as me you'd remember a time when Sheaim summoners didn't have Sundered or gave their units Combat 1 or have summons with Death Affinity. In the long term they've grown more powerful and 2 turn summons mean less micromanagement. Claiming that some people have some kind of vendetta against the Sheaim or are simply not skilful enough is just trolling.

Pyre Zombies: What else kills an impartial observer without fighting and what else wins when it loses?

Most people have been around far longer than you, some of us before light came out, so please don't try to use that as a valid argument. In addition, I'm not entirely surprised you would dismiss skill then complain about the managing summons for an extra turn.

Furthermore, two turn summons is hardly more micromanagement. To dismiss skill having anything to do with beating pyre zombies or bringing up micromanagement as a con of two turn summons sounds much more like trolling than whatever you seem to be accusing me of. Sundered is mostly for flavor unless the AC is exceptionally high and while affinity helps, it is not exclusive to Teb. or Ozzy. Thus it has little to do with balancing a civ, but the summoning system as a whole.

Lastly, I'm assuming your last question was a crude attempt at rhetoric since I'm sure many people can think of at least two units that kill other units without fighting. As for winning "when it loses", it's neither a reason for nerfing nor objectively true. If you're going to accuse me of trolling at least make a proper ad hominem argument and back up your claims.

I really don't like having to do this to people but if someone provides a clear argument that has nothing to do with: zombies are too hard to counter as a single civ, no other unit can do what zombies can do, you are trolling they are obviously overpowered, or the even more inane "they are just overpowered" then you'll never find me making anything but a polite response to it. Otherwise, it might not be pretty.

 

[Imuratep]

Come on, let's start 3 additional threads that contain exactly the same content. It won't be changed, it's that easy. You are not the only one that plays the game. We even had a poll if PZs are overpowered and the majority likes PZs as they are right now. If it is that essential for your game feeling follow Sephis instructions.

 

[Senethro]

I hardly dismissed skill, I'm merely not convinced there is a skill to beating massed early game PZs. Certainly not one that makes sense after counting beakers and hammers. (Though personally I think thats more to do with axemen being too useful relative to Hunters/Horsemen, PZs are simply a very good axeman)

Oddly enough, I can't think of another way to kill an uncapped number of units that affects most units types and belongs to a non-national unit. Certainly not in Tier 2. Tier 3 maybe? Please tell me I'm wrong though!

Without trying to derail too much into a general Sheaim discussion: Stigmata should give +15-20% Str easily, Combat 1 is +20% which seems fair compensation for the loss of 1 turn duration on your Str4 high movement Tier 3 +1 affinity summon.

 

[Imuratep]

Horsemen especially with Flanking are at a tech that has an equal cost to bronze working. You put hordes of them in another nearby city and attack them one after the other (NOT in a stack as usual). If the unit lives and still has a movement point you can even move out from the city where you attacked them to avoid getting hit by a pyrozombie that died. The Sheaim are certainly not the only one that are able to use giant unit stacks.
At the point you are sure that you will win the combat because the PZs have been unfragged by some Horsemen and you still have enough Horsemen to finish them off you can even move the defenders that you consider important on a nearby road that's out of reach of PZ attack the PZ with throw-away troops and then move them back to defend against the small number which may be left.
By the way a question to someone who knows the promotions better than me: How the hell did my drill IV strength V heroic defense/offense (and some other promotions I forgot) Brigit manage to defend against 40 PZ without getting more than 1% damage by exploding PZs? Is Drill in some way connected to the damage you get by PZs?

 

[Trojan Sheep]

By the way a question to someone who knows the promotions better than me: How the hell did my drill IV strength V heroic defense/offense (and some other promotions I forgot) Brigit manage to defend against 40 PZ without getting more than 1% damage by exploding PZs? Is Drill in some way connected to the damage you get by PZs?

The Angel promotion gives fire resistance, and the collateral resistance from drill *may* apply to PZs (I didn't think it did, but perhaps I'm wrong).

 

[Senethro]

I'm not convinced of this supposed horseman solution. Firstly there is the opportunity cost of not researching CoL/Sanitation/Religious tech. Secondly, I think a Str4 unit attacking a Str 5 unit with probable defense bonuses will be feeding XP or simply giving the Sheaim player an easy decision over which PZ to suicide against cities. If the horseman wins then I wouldn't give good odds on his survival. If the PZs are in unroaded forests/hills (probable in the early game) then the Horsemen may not even be able to withdraw properly.

Finally, what use are these giant horseman stacks except on defense?

Does Brigit have any fire immunities (Angel of fire etc)? Also, high unit level has been confirmed as reducing damage received in this situation.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Does Brigit have any fire immunities (Angel of fire etc)? Also, high unit level has been confirmed as reducing damage received in this situation.

No, she does not. Being an angel gives her 20% resistance, which I think would make a Pyre Zombie's explosion never lethal, but that is all. I usually give her Fire Immunity (and a whole lot more) in my version, but I'm actually not quite sure that is correct thematically. If you read her pedia entry you'll see thatat the time of Bhall's fall she (for the first time) felt the pain and was burned by the flames. I think this may mean that Bhall withdrew her Ara from her and thus also her fire immunity, but then again Fire was harmless to all the good before the fall so that may not be relevant. Regardless, it seems thematically correct for the Archangel of Fire not to be immune to fire.

 

[Earthling]

About pyre zombies - I'll weigh in again and say that I think they are fine - and once again with a disclaimer that I really liked reducing summoner duration because it seemed way OP to me at three turns (also this doesn't scale perfectly with game speed - summons are much more useful when regular units take longer to build and you get a new, full strength unit every turn...) The thing about pyre zombies is that I can't imagine them possibly being that hard to fight against as another human - for the first thing, the axemen is not even really a tier 1 unit (unlike regular civ) - you have literal ages where you may find out the Sheiam are your neighbour and decide how to counter them (their warriors are no better than yours). Secondly, in any war that is remotely balanced in the first place, a quite good strategy exists- counterattack the Sheiam's cities/pillage the heck out of their land - the only threat of PZ is having them in one big stack, and you can counter that. Horses certainly are superior in this regard. Sheiam are very likely to fall behind very fast in economy as well, compared to Good/builder civs. In a balanced (read: human MP) game an "early" pyre zombie rush shouldn't be more dangerous than the Clan, or Doviello, or many other civs.

So the thing I think is irking a lot of players is not being able to handle the AI - but the game should never be balanced around the AI so much as the AI balanced around game mechanics. For instance, the fact that the AI receives a lot of free experience (at least 6, maybe 8) at higher levels could be contributing to an imbalance. Also general production bonus/lack of maintenance costs/lack of WW etc... may be helping the AI. But really, in a single player game you can manipulate diplomacy/set things up to avoid the Sheiam, or above all treat them as a challenge - if they're a powerful evil civ and you're good it's kinda part of the game to fight them. I'm guessing it's the case that pyre zombies themselves are not the real problem so much as the AI's general bonuses, and it's not worth taking PZ away from the Sheiam for. I do have to agree a little about the vocality - nothing wrong with people posting ideas but there are a lot of threads, and although most of FfH playing seems to be SP I don't see complaints about this in MP games/from the human perspective.

 

[Sephi]

Horsemen especially with Flanking are at a tech that has an equal cost to bronze working. You put hordes of them in another nearby city and attack them one after the other (NOT in a stack as usual). If the unit lives and still has a movement point you can even move out from the city where you attacked them to avoid getting hit by a pyrozombie that died. The Sheaim are certainly not the only one that are able to use giant unit stacks.

Horsemen need horses which you won't always .