Shocked by AI aggression on Chieftain

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I`m an experienced player, and just to have fun I played a Chieftain game in which i limited myself to 4 cities. Playing on a large map with 16 civ, I knew I`d always be behind in Power, but since I`d usually be way ahead in tech and I`d get lots of wonders I figured that would be OK.

The entire game sucked!

Right from the start, I found the AI totally unfriendly, unwilling to trade unless it was 2 for 1 and ridiculously aggressive. Since I never give in to blackmail when I`m militarily ahead, I now find myself (beginning of middle ages) at war with 11 out of 15 civs. No sweat, I`ll run over them with my veteran Knights (if they stop getting killed by unfortified regular Spearmen in plain 73% of the time!) until I have enough territory so they get scared, but why the goddammned FU*K is it impossible to play a peacefull game???

(and no, my military is huge, not weak, I have a strong military compared to my opponenty and they never even got to my cities)

How the FU*K is a newbie supposed to enjoy that kind of game???

I`m researching Theology when som f-ed up piss-ant little civ from around the worold starts sending teams of 2 swordsmen each at me every 5 turns - and this starts the 'gang up on the loser' process. I mean, I kill like 30 of them without loosing a single unit, but obviously the AI sees me loosing and wants a share of the pie....

What the FU*K?????


Sorry for the rant, but I really can`t see any way someone unused to this can every suffer through this and come to like Civ3!
The AI is ridiculously agressive, more so then I`d expect on Deity, and this is supposed to be an easy level? Come on, this is just 'Z/$*'537*Ü'F

 

[DrSpike]

That's strange to hear. I know on civ2 the chieftain level was ridiculously easy. I won my first game no probs, and trust me I had no idea. I was building stuff at random for most of the game.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by DrSpike
That's strange to hear. I know on civ2 the chieftain level was ridiculously easy. I won my first game no probs, and trust me I had no idea. I was building stuff at random for most of the game.

Which patch were you using? 1.16 was OKI for newbies, 1.17 I never tried, but 1.21 is as described above.

Started a new game, expanded like hell - Zulus (living on the other side of the world, they have 4 cities, I have 15) demand Literature. I laugh at them - WAR!

 

[DrSpike]

I said civ2. I havent played any civ3 games below Monarch; I am sure you are right, I was merely expressing surprise.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I said civ2. I havent played any civ3 games below Monarch; I am sure you are right, I was merely expressing surprise.

Ah, OK. Yeah, CivII was an entirely different thing. I actually like the fact that the Civ3 AI is focused - but it should be a little toned-down for the beginners level. ON Deity, it`s fine; I love it when the AIs behave like sharks, very realistc.

 

[damunzy]

I haven't played on the easiest difficulty since 1.16 but I have had an easy time with Regent (surpasing in Tech, Cities, and military) on 1.21. I am having a more difficult time with Monarch. I seem to be having less agression on me in my Monarch game then you are in your Chieftain game....weird.

Not trying to belittle you but are you sure it is Chieftain? Maybe you set it to Diety and forgot to move it back?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by PaleHorse76


Not trying to belittle you but are you sure it is Chieftain? Maybe you set it to Diety and forgot to move it back?

that`s exactly what might happen to me in my current state

seriously, if you are "weak" - and sadly that is determined via number of units and territory controlled - you get attacked. Now I had little territory, but lots of everything else - BANG! here they go. Once I took two other civs territory, it stopped, but it is simply impossible to play a small-state game without having to kotau all the time to weaker AIs.

 

[Sullla]

Umm... I have not had the same experience as Killer. I recently completed a OCC game on Regent where I won a cultural victory easily while the rest of the world was self-destructing around me in warfare. I had most of the other civs "Gracious" with me almost the entire game. If you are limiting yourself, like the 4CC you seem to be describing, it would behoove you to 1) give in to demands from other civs; otherwise you WILL be at war with everyone pretty soon and 2) have a thorough mastery of the trading system in order to manipulate the much stronger AI civs.

Winning with few cities is certainly possible; succession games in the Stories and Tales forum describe a 5CC victory on Emperor and a OCC victory on Deity!

 

[Fez_Monk]

My first games on Chieftan sucked. I always lost before the Industrial Age. Warlord was easier than Chieftan for me I still use version 1.07, so my experiance may be different from the vast majority of people who use the patches. Sometimes I like exploiting the A.I.'s weaknesses.:arrow:

 

[saintides]

Chieftan level is more ridiculous since da patch, I agree. I played with it right when I downloaded the 1.17 patch (think that was the one? It gave some new options .. had to experiment) and I really had to work with it.

I have beat every level on civ3 too (except deity .. dang that level).

Being an experienced smax/smac/civ3 player (I didn't discover civ2 until half way through my smax addiction .. bought the civ2 game, didn't care for it.. glad I experienced it though) I was kind of surprised I had to work at that level some.

I did win it ... culture,unexpected surprise. Still, really had to fight at winning the easiest level.

Think a lot of it is they just trade a lot more. Pretty easy to out expand them though.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer



I`m researching Theology when som f-ed up piss-ant little civ from around the worold starts sending teams of 2 swordsmen each at me every 5 turns - and this starts the 'gang up on the loser' process. I mean, I kill like 30 of them without loosing a single unit, but obviously the AI sees me loosing and wants a share of the pie....

I had the same thing happen to me on Chieftan level on patch 1.17f.

The AI simply does not "understand" the consequences of aggression. It will get its *** kicked but it doesn't care. This makes it difficult to design any kind of military "deterrence" into the game. Especially nuclear deterrence!

Real world leaders, some of them, are irrational like civ3 AI, but on average I think the AI is too crazy!

 

[JollyRoger]

My very first game out of the box was on Chieftain (1.07). I used my vast knowledge acquired from 6 months of Civ2 experience to get destroyed by the Aztecs sometime around 2500 to 3000 B.C. I have played Chieftain with 1.16 and 1.17 (haven't dipped down to Chieftain with 1.21 yet) and have found it in some ways to be more difficult than Warlard or Regent. Someone new to the civ series would probably have a better experience to start at Warlord or Regent. What amazed me was getting attacked out of the blue by allegedly non-aggressive civs (France and India). I would think, at Chieftain, at least, I would have to go out of my way to provoke a non-aggressive civ into attacking me.

 

[saintides]

Another real tough concept with cheiftan level.

They don't build harbors and stuff until late in the game.
That can be frustrating.

Trading is a big part of civ3. On cheiftan, can't seem to do that with other civs until very late in the game (I found myself giving them techs so I can freaking trade).

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Killer
I now find myself (beginning of middle ages) at war with 11 out of 15 civs. No sweat, I`ll run over them with my veteran Knights

Killer, I have no doubt that you are gonna kick the **** out of all of them. I have confidence in your military prowess!

Sometimes I wonder what the game designers were thinking: "Since they want leaders, the only way they will get them is fighting. Therefore, we will make sure the the AI starts wars often...." Indeed, if they made the game more "peaceful" you would see complaints about it on this forum: "How the **** can I get a leader when the AI won't fight me...."

There are some of us who, even though we are very competent in military conflicts, find endless wars tedious. We want to explore other aspects of the game sometimes.

I am sure you noticed that there is an "aggression" slider in the
"Civilizations" tab in the editor. I know that "peaceful" civs attack, but if you changed all of them to 0 aggression, would you be fighting 4 instead of 11 civs? I don't know. What is it about the human player that makes them want to attack the human and not gang up on an AI civ? When you see a civ that is leading in score, do they all gang up on it? Not often in my experience. I guess it's in the program logic. Example:

if (human player)

probability_of_attack = .05

else

probabilty_of_attack = .01

If the chance to attack the human is 5% on each turn, pretty soon you could get attacked by a lot of civs.

Am I wrong about this? Is it the human's behavior that makes him the victim of attacks? I know that they attack me even if I keep giving them money, have a strong military (even by their stupid "military strength = number of units" evaluation function!), am polite, don't contact them "too often" etc.

 

[cameramano]

You played by limiting yourself to 4 cities.

This ment that you razed all the enemy cities you conquered. This gets the AI's mad at you, and ruins your reputation. When they are mad at you and you have a bad rap sheet, they don't want to deal with you fairly.

Good luck with your game, but that is why.

Oh... and is that language really necessary for a discussion about a game. What do you say when your leg is crushed by an anvil? Swearing at the little things limits your expressive vocabulary. When my friends hear me say "Shoot!" they know I am VERY angry... so when I swear, the result is almost the same as a physical blow, and normally I didn't mean to... I'm just that mad.

 

[D9phoenix]

One question ... what is smax/smac ?

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by D9phoenix
One question ... what is smax/smac ?

smac = Sid Meier's Alpha Century
smax = Sid Meier's Alient Crossfire (smac expansion pack)

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

@ Sulla:

you make exactly my point! If you want peacefull builder without landgrabbing, you have to give in to ridiculous demands. BS!

@ all the others:

I didn`t raze enemy cities. At first I only defended myself. When there were 15 swordsmen coming into my territory every turn, I started taking over the world. When I had 25 cities and controlled a sizable amount of land, the AIs were willing to talk peace. E.g. Babylonians: have recently gone from 8 cities to 1. Now demand from me: 154 Gold, 25 Gold / turn, 2 tech for peace!

Die, Babylonia!

It is simply ridiculous, but I guess the AI is really incapable of understanding deterrence....

 

[sappling]

This thread is funny. Thanks for making me laugh. The AI is insane. They should have made it more logical. I always have weak civs attacking me or making demands when I have hundreds more military units. The AI is a little smarter in v1.21.

 

[Arrian]

The problem is that there is no difference between the AI at chieftain and diety, except for the cheats. In other words, the AI is just as aggressive, but just has less stuff. There needs to be some sort of slider that influence AI behavior based upon level. I play on Monarch, and I'm fine with it, but I can see how someone trying to play a sandbox style game on chieftain would be frustrated.

-Arrian