Should a change be implemented to the Great Wall?

[Phillip_martin]

Originally posted by Zwingli
I wonder what would happen to a size 10 city if the aqueduct expired?

This would be the same as capturing a size 10 city in which all improvements appear to have been destroyed. The Aqueduct will still remain, so the programming probabply has logic stating that if the city size is > 6 then it must have an aqueduct.

I voted to leave the GOTM close to the original "out of the box" configuration. The current “modding” of the GOTM is mere flirting with the core of the game that is what this suggestion will change.

 

[Pal {UI}]

I think that the great wall should be left alone. I love the new units being added in GOTM but changing the wonders would be a bit much.

An alternative suggestion though (if this is possible) would be to keep the great wall as it is, but then have it creating additional commerce once you reach a certain date to reflect tourism income. E.g. doubling the commerce of the city (like the collossus) from the start of the modern era. The same could also apply to other obsolete wonders.

 

[mad-bax]

I think the aqueduct idea should be avoided in particular. I have limited experience with the game, but I think I'm competent enough to realise that this would cause a balance problem, and (almost) remove one of the most important decision making processes from the game (city placement). If I were going to change the GW then I would look more to allowing fortresses and coastal fortresses to play a part in the game. Does anyone build these?

I voted for no change.

PS. I actually like the tourism thing. Instead of expiring it could just convert to producing Xgpt. Unfortunately you could say the same about any wonder. The cost to build it would need to be adjusted to compensate. See... as soon as you start thinking about it, it starts getting difficult.

 

[Karasu]

I agree with avoiding any modifications.

I loved the modified graphics and the enhanced barbarians, but I would be cautious with altering other game features.

 

[Pal {UI}]

Originally posted by mad-bax
PS. I actually like the tourism thing. Instead of expiring it could just convert to producing Xgpt. Unfortunately you could say the same about any wonder. The cost to build it would need to be adjusted to compensate. See... as soon as you start thinking about it, it starts getting difficult.

Having thought about it I agree that it should not apply to other obsolete wonders (too much distortion). It would however make the great wall very useful for peaceful builders as it gives an immediate defensive bonus for the early parts of the game, following by a cash boost later on if you can hang onto it long enough. I would not have it generating extra commerce immediately it expires as that would distort the game too much, but rather have it as a modern age benefit (e.g. when tourism on any scale realistically began). It would also make the great wall worth fighting for later in the game, although whether the AI would appreciate this is doubtfull.

Not sure about the building cost needing to be changed. I think the point of this thread is that no-one builds this wonder anyway, suggesting that it is already too expensive for the benefit it provides.

Might distort the game a bit, but lets face it, if you haven't already won by the modern ages you probably need all the help you can get!

 

[Darkness]

I voted 'no change'. I think new players will be alienated from the GOTM if it becomes more and more like a mod...

 

[civ_steve]

Like many others, I voted for no changes to the Great Wall. I've never built it during Civ III, and rarely build walls, either.

If you're interested in other ways to improve the Great Wall (again, not that I'd like to see it changed in GOTM, but simply for the discussion), here's two ideas that occured to me:

1.) No other civ can enter your Cultural Radius without first declaring war. This would avoid those 'nuisance' ai units that seem to have nothing better to do than wander around your territory. You can block them off with your units, tell their leaders to remove them or declare war (which sours their mood to you), or let them wander and hope they don't decide to pillage or attack you. The revised Great Wall would act as a barrier to these units, unless the other civ makes it's intentions known by declaring war. This would also allow you to block off large tracts of undeveloped land, if the terrain and your city building allowed.

2.) Require that any force attacking a city have a bombard unit present (okay, a catapult present). While horseman, knights, etc., can still do pillaging raids, worker enslavements and attack units outside of cities, the main city assault force would be forced to travel at the catapult's slower speed. Other than planning, and requiring the construction of this unit type, this would not be a problem for a swordsman/archer rush, but it would prevent being overrun by faster units.

These were random thoughts, and I have no idea if they are implementable within Civ III's internal structure, but I think they are in-line with perceived potential benefits of having built a Great Wall.

 

[pterrok]

No change to keep it what everyone expects...

However, if you WERE going to modify it I would go with free walls in every city, much more Culture value (which becomes those tourism points 1000 years down the road!) and a MUCH greater cost to build. Historically, look at what it took China to build it compared to what we think it took the Egyptians to build the Pyramids...

Speaking of the Pyramids, am I the only one who is annoyed that they give you a free GRANARY for building them when POTTERY is not a requisite? (If I had my druthers, Pottery would be required along with Masonry.) This is why I have no problem with the idea of the Great Wall giving free Aqueducts to every city, but I think that doing so would make it too powerful. A free Colosseum in every city instead would be more powerful than Aqueducts but what about a free Courthouse? Most players don't seem to build many of them but the AI does.

Or replace it entirely with something like Tower of Babel that gives you better diplomatic relations with everyone since you can speak their language and maybe a free embassy with ALL other nations...By removing the Great Wall label you make it clear that it IS a mod and the players have to evaluate it before playing.

 

[Smirk]

I'm all for changing it. I never build it, and I *thought* it already gave you a free wall in every city. The problem as I see it, and obviously many on this thread do not, is that the AI builds it and its a complete waste. You have to make it at least passibly interesting for the players to build, or else there is always that small silly advantage over the AI.

The only problem with aquaducts in each city is that, AFAIK there is no way to remove them once added. They can not be sold or destroyed, and this goes from the time you build it, not just once you reach size 6. If that is the case, then I get the same benefit if the AI builds it, and I take his towns.

I suggest giving a bonus commerce in the city square where its built or all continental cities as well as the wall in each continental city. The commerce is just because back in that time people moved to areas that seemed saver, and what more safe than a continent long wall blocking the barbarians? Also making it give 3 culture would round out the picture and make it much more useful and worth some time.

Another suggestion would be to make aquducts maintence free, this could be more easily balanced if the wall is lost, or it becomes obsolete.


I hope suggestions like the above of replacing a real world great wonder with an imaginary tower in a fairy tale are not on the table. I can tell the sentiment around here is very pro-west/christian and anti-everything else. The great wall, in sheer construction organization far exceeds the pyramids. And the former apparently was build for some real purpose not just a pompous grave.
Not to mention the tower in question supposedly did the exact opposite of what the benefit would be, it made everyone speak a different langauge and destroyed communication and thus organization so the tower to the heaven couldn't be completed.

I'll also question anyone that is saying things like aquducts make no sense for the wall, but have no issue with granaries for the pyramids. They weren't gigantic granaries.

 

[Pal {UI}]

Originally posted by Smirk
I'll also question anyone that is saying things like aquducts make no sense for the wall, but have no issue with granaries for the pyramids. They weren't gigantic granaries.

If the pyramids were realistic the effect would be described as:

"Bankrupts your entire economy, quadruples the chance of your cities culture flipping to another civilisation and guarantees the fall of your empire before 1000 A.D."

 

[Hurricane]

Let me put it this way: the reason I play the GOTM, but not Poly's AU games is that I don't feel like learning a new mod.

 

[LKendter]

I voted NO changes.


Custom maps are OK for the GOTM.
However, I don't want to get involved with custom rules.

 

[alamo]

The free walls a la Civ2 were much more obvious and beneficial. Adding aquaducts would be great, but a bit over the top.

There are modding issues, but we're on our own for Civ3 improvements. Also, this mod would not be absolutely necessary to play.

 

[JonathanValjean]

I voted for not modifying the effects of the Great Wall. In fact, I would rather not see any modifications to any wonders. It must be the purist in me that doesn't like to play with altered rules...
However, to be sure, I have enjoyed the minor changes of the volcanoes, the fog, the squid, etc. A change on the scale of changing wonders' effects would be too much for me, though.

 

[cracker]

I want thank all the players who responded to this poll and comment on how important it is for us to ask these question and facilitate discussion of the issiues even if some of the topics may seem to challenge our comfort zones in some areas.

I am going to leave this thread open to continue to collect any comments that people may have and also to facilitate any process related comments that people may have about how we can identify and discuss appropriate questions similar to the one that was raised here for discussion.

 

[Karasu]

Originally posted by Pal {UI}


If the pyramids were realistic the effect would be described as:

"Bankrupts your entire economy, quadruples the chance of your cities culture flipping to another civilisation and guarantees the fall of your empire before 1000 A.D."

That's brilliant!
What about the Oracle, Copernicus, Theory of Evolution and the UN, just to name the first few that come to mind?

 

[Pal {UI}]

How about these:

Copernicus: Doubles the research in the city in which is was built, but only 100 years after your death. Allows the apollo small wonder to be built in 500 years time.

ToE: Increases the scientific research of all Civs in the same cultural group as you, but eliminates the happiness effect of all religious buildings. Giant tortoises become available as a luxury resource.

UN: All civs become furious with you immediately. Makes it impossible to declare war without the agreement of all other nations, unless you are the strongest militarily, in which case you only need the agreement of one other major civ and couple of minor ones.

Oracle: All of your advisers start giving cryptic "predictions" instead of any sensible advice, and your population sends your advisers large amounts of GPT to ensure that they do not get on the wrong side of them.

Hoover Dam: Puts a hydro plant in each city on the same continent but reduces the population of the city in which it is built by 213.

 

[cracker]

Now that Civ3Conquests has been released to the public and implements this exact change that we first proposed and discussed in the Civ3 GOTM forum back in March and April of this year, I beleive it is very interesting to look at the comments and perspectives that wher provided whne this issue was discussed.

 

[Tech Step]

I didn't vote but I think that although modifying Civ does lead to complexities on many levels (learning, unforseen concequenses) the whole aim of the civilization experience is to run a realistic empire, enhancing the great wall would fix a "bug" whereby the player has an advantage over the AI (as previously mentioned in this thread). The people that programmed the game could not by any stretch of the imagination forsee all of the possible outcomes of the game and as such mods are merely "bug" fixes or enhancments (as requested by the user)
The mere fact that there is an "engine" that can be utilized to modify the game is testiment to the idea that the creators of the game wanted people to be able to modify/enhance it.

The GOTM games are an attempt to provide the "civ fanatic" with the best in gaming that is available, and if that means modifying the game then bring it on.

Thats my 2 cents.....