[NFP] Should Campuses get +2 Science from adjacent Encampments?

[Ivan Hunger]

Before the August 2020 patch, I would never build Entertainment Complexes or Encampments in any of my cities. But after the patch gave Theater Squares a +2 Culture yield from adjacent Entertainment Complexes, I almost always build at least one, if for no other reason, then just to get the Splendid Theater Square Completed Historic Moment.

This got me thinking, maybe Encampments could be fixed the same way? I might actually bother to build one if it gave an adjacency yield to another district. Campuses seem like a good candidate since they are also research districts like Theater Squares, although I suppose you could make an argument for Commercial Hubs or even Harbors.

 

[Buktu]

I don't think the encampment needs this kind of a rework since it was another buff to campusses which were already so strong that they got nerfed in the recent patch (through the rationalism card). Anyway the amenity changes, especially the buffed yields for happy/ecstatic cities and harsher penalties are a much better change to ECs than the adjacency.
I think if encampents should get a buff it had to be something about unit contruction. Maybe units can start with a promotion per building instead of bonus exp.
That said encampments are not as bad as ECs were before the recent changes. A few of them are ok for SV's since the raise your spy catching power once you have the consulate, they can trigger the Integrated Space Cells bonus for space race projects and the buildings actually have production yields which makes them not totally useless for producing space race projects as well. Military Engineers are nice to have from time to time as well to speed up flood barriers etc. They are also quite good for defense since they have a ranged attack and can protect another ranged unit inside.
Oh and don't forget about domination games, you will need at least a few encampments to generate GG points (and ofc to run GG projects later on).

 

[The Civs 6]

I think encampments are pretty solid as they are and don't really need a buff. Less immediately obvious, but they play a unique role. They give you a second city-center strike and create a hard point for units to get through. This is a huge advantage against the AI as their invasion stumbles like a drunk on New Years. In very niche situations they can block invasions when placed at at chokepoint.

Second, you can faith/gold purchase two units per turn in your city. This can be a pretty huge advantage when you are playing as certain civs like Mali or Russia (with theocracy).

I forgot about the point raised by Buktu above me - that they are must-builds in SV games, for what that's worth.

They don't help you snowball very much, so they aren't great in the early game. But I think if you added any sort of econ. bonus to them they would be as good as harbors. To me, a harbor is mandatory in any city that is anywhere close to a body of water, and are pretty much the first district I build in any sea-based city.

I think the main argument in favor of this idea is flavor. Military and science, especially as it is represented in Civ with the new civic/tech distinction, are intimately linked.

 

[Buktu]

I think the main argument in favor of this idea is flavor. Military and science, especially as it is represented in Civ with the new civic/tech distinction, are intimately linked.

The flavour fits, thats right. But instead of buffing campusses with even more flat yields the Encampments should get the buffs. Idk something like 1, 2 and finally 3 science per building in this encampment (maybe give these even to the specialists working in the buildings but that would be very unlikely for Civ 6) if next to a Campus (this way you actually have to build up the Encampment and also those yields don't benefit from Natural Philosophy and Rationalism). Maybe automatically defend the campus from spies since the military would want any new weapons to be a secret (add in the already mentioned the buff against spies in Encampment cities and no on ever will steal an eureka from your city). Or, maybe a quite OP one, even grant a random eureka every time you finish an Encampment building next to a Campus (a nice way to keep get boosts in a domination game, where you might not have the time to build too much infrastructure early and absolutely insane for SV's to generate the late game eurekas).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would say yes if they got rid of one of the other adjacency bonuses like the rainforest, considering you can get science for rainforests with zoos.

As it stands the Campus has the most bonuses and don't really need any more unlike the Theater Square if it was in addition to the others we currently have. I would choose the Industrial Zone but that is similar to the Campus where buffs aren't needed.

I think the main argument in favor of this idea is flavor. Military and science, especially as it is represented in Civ with the new civic/tech distinction, are intimately linked.

If we're talking about flavor the Military Academy should probably grant science somehow, though this is a later building.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Maybe it's just because I don't really go into a game with a victory type planned ahead of time, even though I know that's the optimal way to play. I just grow my infrastructure in a general way and don't pivot toward a victory type until I feel like winning. Often I'll end up winning something like cultural or diplomatic or even religious by accident.

So if I were specifically shooting for scientific victory, I would make some Encampments in anticipation of needing them later for the Military Research and Integrated Space Cell policy cards. But the way I play now, I can't imagine ever prioritizing them over literally any other speciality district. And since specialty districts are capped by city population, that means they just don't get built period.

 

[Buktu]

Even if campuses get rid of the rainforest adjacency +2 from Encampments is too much, I mean you can get a +4 in every city with this, just cluster both Encampments and Campusses together and the change to Rationalism is pointless.

So if I were specifically shooting for scientific victory, I would make some Encampments in anticipation of needing them later for the Military Research and Integrated Space Cell policy cards. But the way I play now, I can't imagine ever prioritizing them over literally any other speciality district. And since specialty districts are capped by city population, that means they just don't get built period.

You can always go for an encampment late game in your spaceport cities if you want to. Those will be large late game anyway and Encampments get cheap if you have none/just a few.
If you personally don't like the district and they don't fit your play style you don't need to build them at all but this does not make them as useless as you picture them.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

As it stands the Campus has the most bonuses and don't really need any more unlike the Theater Square if it was in addition to the others we currently have.

I have plenty of games where I start in an area that has no rainforests, mountains, or geothermal fissures in places I can reasonably settle. Reefs are pretty common, but usually not clustered closely enough to get you more than a +2 by themselves.

Even if campuses get rid of the rainforest adjacency +2 from Encampments is too much, I mean you can get a +4 in every city with this, just cluster both Encampments and Campusses together and the change to Rationalism is pointless.

Can't you currently do this same trick with Theater Squares, Entertainment Complexes, and the Grand Opera policy card though? That combo doesn't seem to be breaking the game.

You can always go for an encampment late game in your spaceport cities if you want to. Those will be large late game anyway and Encampments get cheap if you have none/just a few.

Cities do get larger in the late game, but in my experience, there aren't many that grow to population 16 before you win the game anyway. And that's assuming the city can't build a Harbor, a Government Plaza, or a Diplomatic Quarter.

 

[Galvatron]

I'm not sure why adding rowdy drunken officer cadets to rowdy drunken frat boys is good for science.

I think that a buff for encampments isn't a bad idea though. The obvious answer is adding a secondary purpose like the dockyard. Maybe if they allowed you to get production in some way since before machinery the only way to si stuff was with physical labour

 

[Buktu]

Can't you currently do this same trick with Theater Squares, Entertainment Complexes, and the Grand Opera policy card though? That combo doesn't seem to be breaking the game.

You can but culture is not as important to culture victories as science is for science victories since you need tourism to win the game not raw culture. SV need high science though since you have to get deeper into the science tree for a SV (some projects you absolutely need are in the future era) than you have to get in the culture tree for a CV. Also the base yields from Theater Squares are a bit lower (probably because they have room for Great Works who also yield culture) than those from Campus buildings making Grand Opera a little bit less efficient than Rationalism. And you already want to plug in a 3 yellow cards to boost your tourism when going for a CV which leaves you with little room for anything else already.

Cities do get larger in the late game, but in my experience, there aren't many that grow to population 16 before you win the game anyway. And that's assuming the city can't build a Harbor, a Government Plaza, or a Diplomatic Quarter.

13 pop can support 5 districts already. So in theory you can get a Campus, a Theater Square and a Harbour/Commercial Hub (one of these is enough since you get just one trade route) in every of these cities and still have 2 spots (at least) left for other districts. You can easily throw in a Holy Site and an additional district. This additional district can vary from city to city. Some get a Industrial Zone, some an Entertainment Complex/Water Park (which have an area of effect anyway) and some have room for Encamptments/Aerodrome/Gouvernment Plaza/Diplomatic Quarter. You can still get the Great Engineers which provide extra district slots for some cities as well.
And all this theory crafting apart since you dont start with 13 pop you have a lot of time ingame to figure out what kind of victory you want and can change things from the theorycraft according to it.

 

[The Civs 6]

I'm not sure why adding rowdy drunken officer cadets to rowdy drunken frat boys is good for science.

I think that a buff for encampments isn't a bad idea though. The obvious answer is adding a secondary purpose like the dockyard. Maybe if they allowed you to get production in some way since before machinery the only way to si stuff was with physical labour

Because history is littered with the interplay of science and military operations. In the classical era, well before the crippling overspecialization that has taken root in our modern era, the same intellectuals who worked on natural sciences helped cities to develop defenses to sieges (or siege weapons). I am not super familiar with late Medieval and early Renaissance, but I would have to imagine that mercenaries skilled in the use of primitive guns did much to improve our understanding of metallurgy and ballistics, not to mention miscellaneous innovations that came later as nation-states began organizing enormous armies (such as the invention of canning to support Napoleon's wars).

And I don't know about the military operations of your country, but in America, military and scientific progress are very heavily linked from aerospace to the development of the internet. It wouldn't be applicable in every scenario, but it could at a minimum be a very interesting way to represent America as a science and military civ (something no game other than Rise of Nations has done despite it being a super obvious portrayal).

I also find the portrayal of military to be absurd, and it makes me wonder where you hail from to give you that impression.

The flavour fits, thats right. But instead of buffing campusses with even more flat yields the Encampments should get the buffs. Idk something like 1, 2 and finally 3 science per building in this encampment (maybe give these even to the specialists working in the buildings but that would be very unlikely for Civ 6) if next to a Campus (this way you actually have to build up the Encampment and also those yields don't benefit from Natural Philosophy and Rationalism). Maybe automatically defend the campus from spies since the military would want any new weapons to be a secret (add in the already mentioned the buff against spies in Encampment cities and no on ever will steal an eureka from your city). Or, maybe a quite OP one, even grant a random eureka every time you finish an Encampment building next to a Campus (a nice way to keep get boosts in a domination game, where you might not have the time to build too much infrastructure early and absolutely insane for SV's to generate the late game eurekas).

I think another way to skin this cat would be to have adjacencies with campuses grant production bonuses to certain types of units that are more sciencey than others, such as siege weapons, gunpowder units, and so on.