Should the English Empire be renamed the British Empire

[deanjack]

I know this issue was discussed previously, but the announcement of Civ V and the conformation of the English Empire, with Queen Elizabeth I as leader, has once more highlighted this issue in my opinion. I understand that not everyone agrees that the English Empire should be renamed the British Empire, however I personally find it a fairly significant oversight considering the fact that the British Empire one of the largest empires that the world has ever known "the British Empire held sway over a population of about 458 million people, one-quarter of the world's population".

I aknoweledge that the foundations of the empire were made by England, but i also think that it's important to accept that the Empire was made not just by England, but by the other countries such as Wales and Scotland.

So what do you all think?

 

[Silurian]

I agree

 

[Jagatai]

I voted yes, although with Elizabeth I as the leader English is OK. I just hate seeing Churchill and Victoria as "English" leaders. Plus it would give the rest of the British Isles representation in the game which is currently lacking in Civ IV.

 

[Gangor]

I'd like to see the name change during the course of the game. Some other civs could also be included:

English --> British
Romans --> Italians
Prussians --> Germans
Ottomans --> Turks


etc

 

[Evie]

I'm against it, given that the leader is Queen Elizabeth. She was Queen of England (and Wales). Not Queen of Great Britain, not Queen of the United Kingdom, not Empress of the British Empire.

Now, if it was Victoria leading this civilization, then it should be the British Empire.

 

[Insanity_X]

Not to mention that England was applied to the whole of the British isles (and indeed the rest of the Empire).

 

[GeneralMatt]

I would say that you have your argument backwards Oda Nobunaga. First one picks the Civilization and then the leader. The leader only comes second after the Civilization. Allowing the options for leader options to determine the civilizations chosen is very much putting the cart before the donkey.

Yes, I would support it being the British. The British gave the world a tremendous amount of advancements in all fields, technology, science, medicine, self-government, justice, exploration and so on. The English, while doing enough in their own right, and to be sure being the main force in Great Britain, just cannot equal this.

To be sure, to me the question is why if it is so simple to do, cannot one just take the few extra minutes and do it accurately? I realise of course at this point it is far too late for any changes and it would require much more work to fix it, but early on any deviation would have meant hardly any extra effort at all.
Its not even the name as much, after all, as you said Insanity_X, the name was interchangeable, but the flag especially considering it was one of the few flags to float over a quarter of the world and represent a quarter of its people.

 

[MrBanana]

The rest of the British isles are really signifigant comapred to England. Now, now it is Britian, but for a long time it was England, and ethnically the ENglish and Scottish are different. As a civilization, it should just be the English.

 

[Izanaki]

Keep it as the English, especially since Lizzy is their leader

 

[BlackSpy]

Not to mention that England was applied to the whole of the British isles (and indeed the rest of the Empire).

Eh? No it wasn't.

 

[President]

This is exactly my point that I made in my thread in the improvements section. Civilizations in the game shouldn't be empires. If the game traditionally begins at around 6000/4000 BC, then we shouldn't begin with empires. We should begin with ethnic groups that were able to become strong enough to form its own government, like the English, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Indians, etc. Then Sid Meier should incorporate a system, wherein two ethnic countries would be able to consolidate into an empire, a country with multiple ethnicity, just like the Austrian Empire, the American Empire, the Soviet Union, etc. Imperial civilizations didn't just appear out of nowhere -- they were formed through tribes, city-states, or whole countries coming together. Not only will this help realism, but this aspect of the game would also give the Civilization series a better system with never-before-seen gameplay and interactivity with the AI.

 

[l3illyl3ob]

Not to mention that England was applied to the whole of the British isles (and indeed the rest of the Empire).

This is not a fact. England applies to the southern portion of that island. To the west there's Wales, and to the north there's Scotland.

The Kingdom of England has existed longer than the Kingdom of Great Britain and the United Kingdom combined, so maybe they're basing it off of that. But their power was at its height when it was known as "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" so I agree that either "Great Britain" or just plain "Britain" would be more appropriate for Civ V than "England."

 

[deanjack]

I'm against it, given that the leader is Queen Elizabeth. She was Queen of England (and Wales). Not Queen of Great Britain, not Queen of the United Kingdom, not Empress of the British Empire.

Now, if it was Victoria leading this civilization, then it should be the British Empire.

I agree with you that having Elizabeth would be historically innacurate and for this reason English Empire does make more sense, so a leader change would be necessary and that won't happen this far into production, but i was just interested in the opionion in the forums.

 

[sherbz]

i voted yes but im guessing that if a new english leader is included then they would lump them on the same civ. In my view, it was pretty daft in civ 4 having george washington commanding navy seals and elizabeth commanding red coats. I do not know why it would have been so difficult to invent a new civ to go with the leader. So instead of red coats and stock exchange for elizabeth, you could of had a naval UU and a different UB. Much more variety if you ask me.

 

[Hypernova]

I'm not really bothered, but when it made most impact as a major civilization it was most commonly known as the British Empire, so I feel it best it be known as that in the game.

 

[Hypernova]

I do not know why it would have been so difficult to invent a new civ to go with the leader. So instead of red coats and stock exchange for elizabeth, you could of had a naval UU and a different UB. Much more variety if you ask me.

Please, no. Give me England or Britain, I don't care, but both would be horrible - Germany and the Holy Roman Empire all over again...

 

[mitsho]

Britain, because it has been England for the past 4 iterations and change in this department is good, even if it is bad (Legion -> Praetorian). ;-) But of course, England fits more with Elizabeth and is more historical so on and so on

 

[e350tb]

Definately needs to be Britain, I'm sick of having to rename it myself.

 

[PCHighway]

This is not a fact. England applies to the southern portion of that island. To the west there's Wales, and to the north there's Scotland.

I've got to admit I'm surprised to hear opposition to GeneralMatt's statement. I do believe he's fully aware of what geo-political importance "England" has. The point he's trying to make, a point I agree with, is that for better or worse the majority of the world refers to the British as the English--or more accurately, the words are interchangeable. I don't speak Mandarin or read Pinyin, but from my understanding the word for the "British people" is in fact the "English People" and you will find that this is similar in most Romance languages as well. Don't know about German.

And this of course begs the question how legitimate of a term that was derived from a Celtic tribe of "Britons" really is. You see? It's all about convention, not accuracy. I think it should stay that way.

Look, I was in a public beta for Firaxis before and don't underestimate how important aesthetics are. Why has it always been "The American" civ and not the "United States" civ? They don't keep it that was because they believe "American" is more accurate, they keep it that way because populist opinion frankly (or as some here would have me say, frenchly) doesn't care that much, and continues to use traditional modes of speech. In fact, it would take most people out of the moment to use the term British, simply because they normally wouldn't use that word. If Firaxis is willing to continue to use a term like American that gives a big finger to two continents worth of people, I don't think they'll mind using a term that bothers the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish, and... and... the Gibraltarians, or whoever.

I like President's pipedream best. But even if something like that isn't feasible, something simple like the civ's name and adjectives changing when a different leader (Elizabeth/Victoria) is selected would be stellar. I personally enjoyed how in Civ3, the leaders would change garb when they advanced into each major age. It always takes me out of the game a bit when I run into FDR in his suit after Genghis Kahn in leathers and skins declared war on him in order to get some copper.

 

[Lord Khorak]

I voted no, but frankly it's no more stupid an idea than the 'American Empire' so one can hardly argue against it on any logical basis of history or realism. If slapping a different name and face on the romantic image of English colonial imperialism is more appealing to everyone who wants to pretend they weren't entirely subservient to England, I'm not going to be disappointed at getting to use a prettier flag. It's still the English Empire.