Should the mongols be a civilization?

[ddog14]

I know I'm just a noob here, but I have a debate topic. Should the mongols be a civilization in this game? If you think about it, they were really just barbs with a leader. They never got technologies, they had no wonders, they didn't even govern. Genghis Khan would just leave the previous governors of provinces he captured in charge. I bring this up because I did a report on him. He was truly on a military leader. He didn't directly contribute anything to the world other than a heavy invasion and a near destruction of several civilizations. The mongols should really be considered a very powerful barbarian tribe. Sure, the county of mongolia is still around, but what did mongolia contribute? Everyone else in civ had a fixed government and some kind of non-military accomplishment, most if not every civ had wonders, and I can't think of how the mongols were really a civ in the traditional sense.

If you really like the mongols, another possibility is to have a mongols situation. The mongols horse archer/keshik horde invading asia and europe, Genghis Khan as the leader head, Wang Lang and other rulers of the time defending. Since this is such a massive scenario, you could break it down into smaller sections. The chinese situation could be trying to outlast the invasion until you build the great wall, the russian situation being a siege going on at kiev as the mongol horde advances from the south, etc.

Point is, the mongols weren't so much a civilization as barbarians. Should they be included in Civ 5 and beyond?
Discuss.

 

[Illini Rule]

I agree. The Mongols are not a civ. They did contribute a method of war to the world. You could consider it the first Blitz Krieg. But the Hun invented the reflex bow but they are not even close to a civ.

 

[euro]

yes. I thought byzatine is a civilization rather than mogol...
but it depend on our definition to "civilization". I thought any tribe should be consider as some kind of civilization which just could not be control by player.

 

[fed1943]

Not just the reflex bow, but stir up and yogourth, too. But I agree.

Nevertheless, one cannot study History without consider Mongols weigh, in

Europe, Islam World, India and China, that is, everywhere.

Best regards,

 

[PMabey]

so who goes in the game instead, HRE?

 

[Yeekim]

It has been discussed earlier in other threads.
But if you did a report on Genghis Khan and are saying he was only a war-chief, then you did a poor job imho.

He was also genius administrator, who also created a very long-lived code-of-laws and an Empire, which lasted for several generations after his death.

Compared to Alexander or Attila, latter is a significant achievement. Everything they conquered fell apart the hour they died (of overindulgence, afaik).

 

[El Koeno]

He didn't directly contribute anything to the world other than a heavy invasion and a near destruction of several civilizations.

If you want to call 16 million descendants nothing, go ahead, but I'll have to disagree with you.

 

[RedRalph]

Having controlled the largest contiguos empire in history definitely warrants inclusion in the game IMO. Notions of what constitues a Civilisation are always going to be subjective. the Mongols influence in history is not debatable

 

[Ecofarm]

He invited specialists from all over asia. He expanded world trade by providing safe passage. He outlawed torture. These 3 things are quite 'civilized'.

 

[Traitorfish]

On the one hand, it could be argued that they never established a civilisation of their own, and tended to borrow from their neighbours, particularly the Chinese. On the other hand, they were the greatest military force in history, created the greatest empire the world has ever known (and that includes Britain- we cheated by "conquering" a lot of Asutralian desert and Canadian tundra) and had a huge effect on the history of the world. Novogrod's replacement of Kiev as the dominant power of Russia, the otherthrow of Baghdad's power, the Yuan dynasty, not to mention all the indirect effects- the later Timurid and Mughal empires both saw themselves as the successors of the Goldern Hoarde.
I'd say keep them. Maybe not the best idea for a civ, but they're decent enough.

 

[Jerrymander]

Kublai Khan led China to one of their "greatest" periods in the medieval time-frame, during the Yuan dynasty.

Genghis Khan was ugly, stinky, shrewd, and awesome. His grandson was even more awesome. I guess America isn't a civilization. It's still in the game, no?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Novogrod's replacement of Kiev as the dominant power of Russia

Well, at the times of Mongolian invasion, Kiev was already not a thriving city, to put it mildly, mainly because of fighting Russian princes taking and retaking it many times. And, BTW, it is Novgorod, not Novogorod.

 

[ddog14]

Genghis Khan himself contributed very little, most accomplishments of the mongolian empire came through other civilizations at the time. Also, shortly after genghis khan's death, his generals and descendants fought over the land and it split into several subsections. I didn't say to take the mongols out of the game entirely, I said to make them into a scenario rather than a civilization. Also, the american civilization wasn't formed until 1776, true, but America contributed flight, radio, television, the UN building, a relatively new government system, the internet, and the first successful moon landing to society. The mongols introduced a new style of war (thousands of horse archers, camels carrying quivers, the false retreat tactic, etc.) to the world, but what more did they do themselves? They couldn't read or write, they had no cities, they didn't even govern for the most part. (I knew this was probably discussed before, but I had looked back through a few months worth of threads and didn't find anything.) If conquering the largest empire in history for about a hundred years grants you entrance into civ, why shouldn't inventing the internet, radio, television, etc.? I just don't think the mongols were really a civilization, more just barbarians. Very powerful barbarians.

 

[prestermatt]

The mongols introduced a new style of war (thousands of horse archers, camels carrying quivers, the false retreat tactic, etc.) to the world, but what more did they do themselves? They couldn't read or write, they had no cities, they didn't even govern for the most part. ... I just don't think the mongols were really a civilization, more just barbarians. Very powerful barbarians.

I don't think this is quite fair. The Mongols were a lot more advanced than this, and were quite adept at managing large (very large) empires. The successor states that arose in China (the Yuan Dynasty) and Persia (the Il-Khanids) were highly cultured and refined. Furthermore, many later rulers and empires sought legitimacy by linking themselves to Ghengis Khan. The Mughal empire, which ruled India for several hundred years until it was displaced by the British, is a prime example. They were GK's descendants, and they considered themselves Mongols. (Mughal/Mogul/etc. is just a variant of "Mongol".)

So, in one sense, the Mongols lasted well into the 19th century. Combined with their dramatic impact on the history of Europe and Asia, I think they have a right to be in the game.

 

[MitchCJ]

I know I'm just a noob here, but I have a debate topic. Should the mongols be a civilization in this game? If you think about it, they were really just barbs with a leader. They never got technologies, they had no wonders, they didn't even govern. Genghis Khan would just leave the previous governors of provinces he captured in charge. I bring this up because I did a report on him. He was truly on a military leader. He didn't directly contribute anything to the world other than a heavy invasion and a near destruction of several civilizations. The mongols should really be considered a very powerful barbarian tribe. Sure, the county of mongolia is still around, but what did mongolia contribute? Everyone else in civ had a fixed government and some kind of non-military accomplishment, most if not every civ had wonders, and I can't think of how the mongols were really a civ in the traditional sense.

If you really like the mongols, another possibility is to have a mongols situation. The mongols horse archer/keshik horde invading asia and europe, Genghis Khan as the leader head, Wang Lang and other rulers of the time defending. Since this is such a massive scenario, you could break it down into smaller sections. The chinese situation could be trying to outlast the invasion until you build the great wall, the russian situation being a siege going on at kiev as the mongol horde advances from the south, etc.

Point is, the mongols weren't so much a civilization as barbarians. Should they be included in Civ 5 and beyond?
Discuss.

Probably the most ignorant statement I have ever read on these boards. Go check your history books again if you don't think the Mongolians contributed anything.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Probably the most ignorant statement I have ever read on these boards. Go check your history books again if you don't think the Mongolians contributed anything.

i agree with this guy 1000000 %. Genghis Khan is arguably the greatest conqueror in the world, but more than that. he was not some barbaric psycho who just loved killing. Kublai Khan, his grandson, can be considered the nice version of Genghis Khan.


Genghis Khan was one of the most organized men of all time. how hard is it to organize thousands of barbaric nomads? pretty hard. whatmore, he also was an excellent administrator and manager; knowing that his own Mongols were incapable of handling much, he wisely allowed other foreigners to come to advise and help him.

the Mongol army was the best for centuries. it could move as fast as any army of World War II (sometimes even faster), it was resourceful, and it was a terror unlike any other.

other than that, what influence did the Mongols have on world civilization?

well, first of all, every European, American, and "white" political entity (no insult or rascism here) owes their prosperity to the Mongols. without the Mongols, the Europeans would've never known that an Asia really existed, and without Marco Polo and the other Europeans trying to find way to Asia, they would've never discovered America, sailed around the world, and try to go on a quest for world domination. the Mongols also severely weakened the islamic, chinese, and indian empires, the threat that would've existed against European expansion.

the Mongol empire was also a very... well-kept empire. it was so calm and protected that a historian of the time wrote, "a man can travel with a golden plate on his head from one end of the empire to another and not be interrupted at all". the Mongols also had an excellent postal system, which allowed them to communicate throughout the empire quickly and effectively.

whatmore, in China, Kublai Khan was a very humane ruler. he actually conquered a city without shedding any blood; more importantly, he built orphanages, homeless shelters, and free welfare for the poor and needy.


they may not have been much of a unique civilization, but surely, their amazing accomplishments, and the fact that they were pretty much the closest anyone has gotten to total world domination, shows that they should deserve a place in the game.

 

[Saluki]

Probably the most ignorant statement I have ever read on these boards. Go check your history books again if you don't think the Mongolians contributed anything.

I think that's a little harsh. I've seen MUCH more ignorant statements on these boards than that one . Also, I for one would appreciate a reply that actually contributed to the discussion rather than simply throwing insults around. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a short list of the Mongolians major non-military accomplishments.

 

[gettingfat]

Not mean to be an a-hole, but before raising something so controversial, such as claiming the largest contiguous land empire in the history, can people at a minimum do a simple wikipedia search first??

 

[MitchCJ]

Was that harsh? Sorry, it was only intended as an observation. Just as the OP's observation of Mongolian history is that they contributed nothing more than barbaric warfare. I don't know, I guess to some with Mongolian heritage that would be an insult.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Genghis Khan himself contributed very little, most accomplishments of the mongolian empire came through other civilizations at the time. Also, shortly after genghis khan's death, his generals and descendants fought over the land and it split into several subsections.

Wrong -- Mongol empire kept expanding after Genghis Khans death and lasted about 200 hundred years.

I didn't say to take the mongols out of the game entirely, I said to make them into a scenario rather than a civilization.

What??

Also, the american civilization wasn't formed until 1776, true, but America contributed flight, radio, television, the UN building, a relatively new government system, the internet, and the first successful moon landing to society.

Do you really think "American civilization" invented/build all those by themselves, without outside influence and knowledge? What do you actually know about history of invention of radio or tv, for example?

The mongols introduced a new style of war (thousands of horse archers, camels carrying quivers, the false retreat tactic, etc.) to the world, but what more did they do themselves?

Rule the world?

They couldn't read or write, they had no cities, they didn't even govern for the most part. (I knew this was probably discussed before, but I had looked back through a few months worth of threads and didn't find anything.) If conquering the largest empire in history for about a hundred years grants you entrance into civ, why shouldn't inventing the internet, radio, television, etc.? I just don't think the mongols were really a civilization, more just barbarians. Very powerful barbarians.

This quote is from wiki

Genghis Khan also created a national seal, encouraged the use of a written alphabet in Mongolia, and exempted teachers, lawyers, and artists from taxes, although taxes were heavy on all other subjects of the empire.

And what is this?

"The Secret History of the Mongols is the first literary work of Mongolian culture. It was written for the royal Mongol family some time after Genghis Khan's death in 1227 AD, by an anonymous author, originally in the Uyghur script, though the surviving manuscripts all derive from a Chinese transliteration and translation of the 14th century. It is currently regarded as the single significant Mongolian account of Genghis Khan. It is regarded as classic literature in Mongolia."

Also, check out the legacy of Mongols. Some fact checking before posting would help.