Should the NC be nerfed?

[Biologist]

I suppose if you really want to ignore the NC, you could just play as the Mayans. Spam cities, build Pyramids everywhere, and choose MoG pantheon with Feed the World (for growth) and Ascetism (for happiness) beliefs.

 

[Unresolved]

Well you could do a domination rush on Immortal to win without NC. Pretty sure it won't work on deity though.

 

[Xahz]

Science should be nerfed, since it completely dictates the pace of the game on higher difficulty levels. You cannot win any victory condition if you fall behind in science.

 

[Halcyan2]

NC is not the problem (and a 50% boost in one city is not "nearly doubling" science output). If you wanted to slow down science a bit, just shift one of the university specialist slots to research labs. That would parallel the other specialist buildings, where the last available building is the one with two slots (Museum, Factory and Stock Exchange). However, since labs come much later than the others, perhaps shifting the slot to public schools would be more appropriate (same era as the others). But, in any event, nerfing NC is not necessary.

Anyone else remember back when the lowly Library used to come with a specialist slot?

 

[Browd]

Yep. Moving that specialist slot back helped slow down science pace, and then they redesigned the tech tree in G&K to make science VCs slower (while screwing up RAs, which sped them back up again *sigh*). All balance refinements, none of which made science less critical to every VC, just the speed of tech acquisition

 

[Aaron90495]

Science should be nerfed, since it completely dictates the pace of the game on higher difficulty levels. You cannot win any victory condition if you fall behind in science.

Agreed. What I don't get is why G&K actually INCREASED the importance of science. The core melee line used to be 6-10-14-16-24-36-50; now it's 8-14-21-24-34-50-70-90. Thus, the expansion only made disparity in science even more damaging (and this is ignoring the increased difference between Piety and Rationalism).

 

[Light Cleric]

Agreed. What I don't get is why G&K actually INCREASED the importance of science. The core melee line used to be 6-10-14-16-24-36-50; now it's 8-14-21-24-34-50-70-90. Thus, the expansion only made disparity in science even more damaging (and this is ignoring the increased difference between Piety and Rationalism).

The one that I still don't get is Great War Infantry/Infantry. Why did even put in GWI if they're going to put Infantry right there at Plastics? I kinda feel the same about Longswords/Muskets but at least there's a strategic resource reasoning there.

 

[joncnunn]

Interesting, I may have to try this out sometime. Heroic Epic buffing Frigates and Privateers, especially if as England, sounds just monstrous.

Or as the Dutch with Sea Beggars. Base unit has not only Coastal Raider I but Coastal Raider II & Supply. The first 30 XP gives it Coastal Raider III and 2 attacks. The next 15 XP will gives it a heads start towards the next promotion, but will be more for the Frigates.

 

[joncnunn]

(while screwing up RAs, which sped them back up again *sigh*)

You now need DOFs for RAs and so you no longer have an RA with most of the civs on the map.
And you no longer get median tech value but instead only about 6 turns (exact amount depends upon how much science your partner is making in addition to your own) PT pushed back a lot.

Also, as a side effect of the patch that encouraged AIs to spend cash on units, they have less money around for RAs.

 

[Browd]

Should have been more precise. In addition to changing the RA mechanic, G&K included a bug that supercharged RAs (double counted beaker overflow) (hence my sigh). That got fixed in the Fall patch, which also caused the AI to spend more of their gold, making the newly nerfed RAs even harder to get.

 

[sufficiency]

Agreed. What I don't get is why G&K actually INCREASED the importance of science. The core melee line used to be 6-10-14-16-24-36-50; now it's 8-14-21-24-34-50-70-90. Thus, the expansion only made disparity in science even more damaging (and this is ignoring the increased difference between Piety and Rationalism).

I think the REAL problem is that Plastic gives you both research centers and infantries. The melee units are far too high on the tech tree.

 

[Matthew.]

If science techs were broken up into smaller upgrades split between the top and bottom half of the tech tree, I think there would be more freedom to pick up techs in various order. For example if you wanted to beeline culture techs for mass CPT bonuses, then you may pick up two science techs on the top half of the tree. Or if you wanted to spread out your techs a bit, you could develop the top and bottom half and pick up one science tech from each side, being roughly equal the same as beelining the culture techs.

IMO I don't think there should be a large variance in science no matter how you tech up through the tree (within reason). The difference of science should come purely through population or specialists, which would turn it back into a 4X game (currently the expand part of 4X is lacking).

The one that I still don't get is Great War Infantry/Infantry. Why did even put in GWI if they're going to put Infantry right there at Plastics? I kinda feel the same about Longswords/Muskets but at least there's a strategic resource reasoning there.

Also opportunity cost. I don't mind Lswords to muskets as it takes that much longer to get to universities/theaters. And if you went universities first, then still no problem as by the time you get to Lswords half the medieval techs are already researched.

GWI to Infantry is messed though. No opportunity cost, just upgraded science and military in one package. If it wasn't for the 3-range artillery guns there would be zero reason to hit up the bottom half of the tech tree before research labs.

 

[Halcyan2]

Should have been more precise. In addition to changing the RA mechanic, G&K included a bug that supercharged RAs (double counted beaker overflow) (hence my sigh). That got fixed in the Fall patch, which also caused the AI to spend more of their gold, making the newly nerfed RAs even harder to get.

Yeah, but the overflow didn't really give that much of an advantage, from my personal experience.

Actually, many iterations ago, RA's gave a random tech (IIRC).

Then it was changed to median-based.

And now it's based on beakers produced (while requiring a DoF).

It's been a steady progression of fixes, but more and more balanced IMHO.

 

[ahawk]

I have no problem with GWI to Infantry. I've played a number of times where the bonuses from Chemistry and Fertilizer actually made me go bottom half of the tech tree immediately after I could build GWI. After all, if I get Public Schools up, it's not too long a delay to go down the bottom half.

The upper path is the one I rarely go right away, unless on Archipelago, Tiny Islands, or having cities next to mountains (for Observatories). I've played many games on Pangaea, even Continents, where I didn't even have Optics, yet was building Public Schools. I feel like the upper path is only absolutely necessary after you've taken out your neighbors and either want to consolidate coastal cities or go after another continent.

 

[joncnunn]

Yeah, but the overflow didn't really give that much of an advantage, from my personal experience.

Actually, many iterations ago, RA's gave a random tech (IIRC).

Then it was changed to median-based.

And now it's based on beakers produced (while requiring a DoF).

It's been a steady progression of fixes, but more and more balanced IMHO.

I think they fixed the RA bug before I got G&K so didn't know about it. (They had already changed to the new Austrian Yoink! achievement)

First main version of RA: A random tech among those you have completed less than X amount. (25%? 30%? 33%?)
So if you wanted to, you could micro manage this into the desired tech by partially researching every tech above the threshold except for the one you wanted.

Yes, later changed to median-based; so a lot easier to micro as it was on the full tech level. (The micro in this case designed to both maximize the median and also ensure the tech you want to flow to next is selected so that the overflow went to the tech you wanted. In addition I think people avoiding signing more than 1 RA per turn and instead spread them out over a few turns. And one more gotcha involving ultra cheap techs; you wouldn't want to have your RA come due if you were catching up with them.