yeah with those you could make a scramble for africa scenario. ottomans would control the middle east, ethiopia in its modern position, songhai in their historical position, dutch in congo (representing belgium), portugese in modern mozambique (or is it angola?), french in algieria, spanish in morocco, british in egypt (with egypt still in control of part of its land) and south africa, and germans directly south of songhai. all the european civs only have part of the territory they had historically except dutch (belgium) who would start with all theirs
Should we bring back vassals and colonies?
- Thread starter ShahJahanII
- Start date
yeah with those you could make a scramble for africa scenario. ottomans would control the middle east, ethiopia in its modern position, songhai in their historical position, dutch in congo (representing belgium), portugese in modern mozambique (or is it angola?), french in algieria, spanish in morocco, british in egypt (with egypt still in control of part of its land) and south africa, and germans directly south of songhai. all the european civs only have part of the territory they had historically except dutch (belgium) who would start with all theirs
ShahJahanII
Homesick Alien
This can be a lot of fun on terra maps.
We could build entire civilizations out of this.
See the Civ V civilizations wanted thread for tons of ideas.
We could build entire civilizations out of this.
See the Civ V civilizations wanted thread for tons of ideas.
headcase
Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn
Some ideas I have on colonies:
- They don't contribute to your civ's unhappiness at all, but instead all colonies you own have a 2nd collective happiness value which also appears at the top of the screen (this may be more similar to influence though).
- They produce on their own, but you can force production on a unit or building, which slightly decreases their happiness.
- You can demand gold from them, which decreases their happiness
- All spare luxs go to you. If they have only 1 of a lux, you can demand it, but... well you know where that's going.
- I guess you can demand units too - more unhappiness depending on how small their army was and how big yours was.
- You get free science from them.
- Going a little while without demands makes their happiness go up.
- And, I don't know, something you have less control over but isn't totally random either also decreases their happiness. Like other civs can "encourage" them to break ties, and you can do the same against rival civs that have colonies (obviously resulting in a diplo hit with them).
- if they reach a certain level of unhappiness, you can no longer make the demands from above. They become their own civ, perhaps one that will always vote for you in the UN and maybe be a little friendlier with you than normal (for game balance, not historical accuracy), and besides that just another civ.
They're tricky because of walking the line between being too random for the game and being too predictable.
- They don't contribute to your civ's unhappiness at all, but instead all colonies you own have a 2nd collective happiness value which also appears at the top of the screen (this may be more similar to influence though).
- They produce on their own, but you can force production on a unit or building, which slightly decreases their happiness.
- You can demand gold from them, which decreases their happiness
- All spare luxs go to you. If they have only 1 of a lux, you can demand it, but... well you know where that's going.
- I guess you can demand units too - more unhappiness depending on how small their army was and how big yours was.
- You get free science from them.
- Going a little while without demands makes their happiness go up.
- And, I don't know, something you have less control over but isn't totally random either also decreases their happiness. Like other civs can "encourage" them to break ties, and you can do the same against rival civs that have colonies (obviously resulting in a diplo hit with them).
- if they reach a certain level of unhappiness, you can no longer make the demands from above. They become their own civ, perhaps one that will always vote for you in the UN and maybe be a little friendlier with you than normal (for game balance, not historical accuracy), and besides that just another civ.
They're tricky because of walking the line between being too random for the game and being too predictable.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Vassals. No.
Colonies I could see. However, probably the most logical way (something that fits with Civ5) would be to make them essentially puppet cities you found. Perhaps have a separate unit, a colonist, that lets you found them (probably with a later tech, not from the beginning). All the benefits of puppets (usually social policies) only without needing conquest. You could even make it so Conquistadors found puppets.
Colonies I could see. However, probably the most logical way (something that fits with Civ5) would be to make them essentially puppet cities you found. Perhaps have a separate unit, a colonist, that lets you found them (probably with a later tech, not from the beginning). All the benefits of puppets (usually social policies) only without needing conquest. You could even make it so Conquistadors found puppets.
The problem with just making them puppet cities that you found, though, would be the matter of independence. I like the idea of colonies being a completely separate entity, diverging more and more over time. That doesn't really work out with puppet cities.
I'm really for vassals. A really good way to reduce your empiresize and making and creating an ally at the same time.
It could also work really well combined with revolutions. Through a revolution a civ could also create a vassal, albeit not voluntarily and with a more hostile mood towards you.
It could also work really well combined with revolutions. Through a revolution a civ could also create a vassal, albeit not voluntarily and with a more hostile mood towards you.
ShahJahanII
Homesick Alien
my point exactlly
HardRocker
Student.
definitely need vassals and colonies 
Vassals and colonies are a huge YES. Vassals were conditional AI allies and made for great fun, you could often break them free from their parents, it fits a Great Powers strategy and history model that is historically accurate AND fun as hell.
ShahJahanII
Homesick Alien
I have tons of ideas for them too.
How about, a lot more unhappiness, but they give you 10% of everything
,
,
...The Civ4 model was pretty good - you could ask for their luxuries and such and as a vassal they had to submit. To be honest, I always found it important to keep my vassals happy, and made a point to grant them what they needed to improve their Civ in order to be more powerful allies.
Though I'd also force them to covert religions, best way to improve relations long term...
Though I'd also force them to covert religions, best way to improve relations long term...
Vassals was supremely 'crutchy' in Civ4, but it sort of made sense given the context of that game's mechanics.
As noted, we have puppet cities in Civ5. But I assume people who want this are thinking in terms of geo-political implications.
The issue is that the AI can already offer capitulation level concessions when they are losing, so Vassals seems like a waste and would only keep weak Civs around. Civ5 tend to reward extremes. You either grow very big or stay small. In betweens get the worst of both worlds.
Perhaps a co-operation treaty where vassal states become a kind of reward to the honest broker/non-warmonger in the area. But that's an idea that needs to be developed more.
As noted, we have puppet cities in Civ5. But I assume people who want this are thinking in terms of geo-political implications.
The issue is that the AI can already offer capitulation level concessions when they are losing, so Vassals seems like a waste and would only keep weak Civs around. Civ5 tend to reward extremes. You either grow very big or stay small. In betweens get the worst of both worlds.
Perhaps a co-operation treaty where vassal states become a kind of reward to the honest broker/non-warmonger in the area. But that's an idea that needs to be developed more.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Some level "less" than Puppets for a city (either conquered or otherwise)... you get the resources in the terrain, but
1. you don't pay building maintenance, but don't get any gold output from the city ?not sure about trade routes?
2. you don't get any of the culture for social policies (but it doesn't increase social policy costs)
3. you don't get any unhappiness from the pop, but you don't get any of the science either.
1. you don't pay building maintenance, but don't get any gold output from the city ?not sure about trade routes?
2. you don't get any of the culture for social policies (but it doesn't increase social policy costs)
3. you don't get any unhappiness from the pop, but you don't get any of the science either.
For this we probably don't even need vassal states.
Here's an idea for you. Tribute States (Think Friendship Declarations, but with different features)
This would be like applying 'Friendship declaration' attitude modifier to the diplomacy. However, unlike friendship treaties, this can work on AI who may not even like you, but have decided to pay tribute perhaps due to size or defeat in war. During the tribute period (30 turns and renewable) an AI will be more willing to go to war with you, accept resource trades with good/fair pricing, enter into RAs.
However, unlike friendship aggreements, Tribute agreements open with gold or gpt payment and grants the Master a small culture or science bonus, perhaps applied to the capital. And there is an automatic open borders agreement.
Lastly, there will be a Tribute Reputation mechanic where a 'Tribute State' will evaluate his time as a Tribute state. This mechanic will be determined by
- Happiness of the Tribute Civ
- Economic performance
- Population size
- Territorial Integrity
This will be a running average the AI checks every 20-60 turns comparing their performance. This will prevent the players from using tribute states as punching bags, or getting them into wars that get their cities conquered while the master retake cities and keep it for himself.
This reputation mechanic will be used by the AI to determine if they should renew their tribute agreement, and if a Tribute state is treated well, they will tell others, which will increase chances of other Civs acquiescing to being a Tribute State. There may be even a reward system where a Great Person is 'given' to the master Civ as a bonus for creating a strong relationship, but the details will obviously need to be refined and tested for balance.
The nice thing about this is that unlike Vassals in Civ4, which a human will never engage in as it means a loss, a human player can willingly become a tribute state as a viable strategy. As the agreement is renewable and not permanent (it is not capitulation but a recognition one's relative position at a point in time), and this opens up the door to exciting things, diplomatically.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Well that "Tribute State" sounds very similar to an unbreakable Peace Treaty.
Perhaps....
If someone is your Tribute, you cannot declare war on them (not vice versa)
A Tribute cannot declare war on a major civ (besides you.. breaking the Tribute relationship)
If someone is your Tribute you are automatically at war with every major civ that is at war with them. (you and the other civ can't make peace unless they also make peace with your tribute)
You get Open Borders
They will automatically engage in "fair trade" with you ... RAs if they have the money, selling you excess luxury+strategics,and buying them for a fair price
Perhaps....
If someone is your Tribute, you cannot declare war on them (not vice versa)
A Tribute cannot declare war on a major civ (besides you.. breaking the Tribute relationship)
If someone is your Tribute you are automatically at war with every major civ that is at war with them. (you and the other civ can't make peace unless they also make peace with your tribute)
You get Open Borders
They will automatically engage in "fair trade" with you ... RAs if they have the money, selling you excess luxury+strategics,and buying them for a fair price
Yes, the peace is 30 turns instead of 10, but the key idea here is it is renewable, it's not 'locked' and a human player should be able to enter into these at any point, perhaps except near the end, and the game won't end in a loss for them.
So basically, think of it as something like a friendship announcement or a denounciation, in that class of agreements, but with different effects.
In my post above, I also outlined things the AI will use to 'rate' if it is in their best interest to continue on being a tribute state, as this is a renewable 'agreement' rather than a permanent diplomatic state.
So basically, think of it as something like a friendship announcement or a denounciation, in that class of agreements, but with different effects.
In my post above, I also outlined things the AI will use to 'rate' if it is in their best interest to continue on being a tribute state, as this is a renewable 'agreement' rather than a permanent diplomatic state.
headcase
Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn
Just got an idea for simple colonies (more complicated ideas may be better):
- Any non-(ex)-capital city, whether settled, puppeted or annexed, can be converted at any time to a colony.
- The colony is a CS that starts with 90\60 influence with you, and goes down normally
- type is "blank" - it does not provide culture, etc, but it does provide resources and goes to war alongside you while you are allied.
- flavour is random.
- they start with the tech you have, so compared to other CSs they might have an edge
- colonizing a city that shares borders with a colony you made makes it part of the same colony
- it can be bought by yourself and others, change alliances, etc like a normal CS
- The first colony made by each civ that hasn't been destroyed has a UN vote. They vote for whomever they're allied with. Colonies with no vote are marked as such when you speak to them.
- the advantage to this is the happiness you get back to your empire (especially if courthouse bug were fixed), if you don't have anyone to sell it to. It also lets you cook the books and get an extra UN vote, but just one and it can be bought away.
- you must go to war and capture it to re-annex, but maybe you can take it if you have an influence level of 150\60 or something (maybe make this true for all CSs). You do lose the potential UN vote and happiness by doing this, but it does not count as occupied.
- Any non-(ex)-capital city, whether settled, puppeted or annexed, can be converted at any time to a colony.
- The colony is a CS that starts with 90\60 influence with you, and goes down normally
- type is "blank" - it does not provide culture, etc, but it does provide resources and goes to war alongside you while you are allied.
- flavour is random.
- they start with the tech you have, so compared to other CSs they might have an edge
- colonizing a city that shares borders with a colony you made makes it part of the same colony
- it can be bought by yourself and others, change alliances, etc like a normal CS
- The first colony made by each civ that hasn't been destroyed has a UN vote. They vote for whomever they're allied with. Colonies with no vote are marked as such when you speak to them.
- the advantage to this is the happiness you get back to your empire (especially if courthouse bug were fixed), if you don't have anyone to sell it to. It also lets you cook the books and get an extra UN vote, but just one and it can be bought away.
- you must go to war and capture it to re-annex, but maybe you can take it if you have an influence level of 150\60 or something (maybe make this true for all CSs). You do lose the potential UN vote and happiness by doing this, but it does not count as occupied.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,989
WHAT?! NO.
They never finished the vassal mechanic. Ever. It broke so many games. You want THAT back? There are many ways that civ IV is more polished than V. Vassal mechanic is an example of where it is polished less. It was and is an utter joke that allowed the AI to de facto PA at random and play kingmaker, without any sense or logic (AI would not capitulate to you, but if you deleted your own vassal it would........wait what?!)
This thread wasn't posted on april 1, so it scares me
.
They never finished the vassal mechanic. Ever. It broke so many games. You want THAT back? There are many ways that civ IV is more polished than V. Vassal mechanic is an example of where it is polished less. It was and is an utter joke that allowed the AI to de facto PA at random and play kingmaker, without any sense or logic (AI would not capitulate to you, but if you deleted your own vassal it would........wait what?!)
This thread wasn't posted on april 1, so it scares me
.
Steelyglint
Warlord
What is it, for those who don't know?
Similar threads
