Should we pay China 16gpt for an ROP and alliance against Persia?

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
A war on several fronts would be devastating. Once we have secured our southern border, then we can take a tougher stance towards the Chinese.


They only wars we are in right now are with Japan and Persia. Japan will make peace any time we want and have offered to threat to us. Persian units have yet to be seen and Xerxes will make peace as well. if China did attack us we could end both current wars and immediately seek allies against China (or visa versa if reputation matters). We could be stationing troops in the south even if it means rushing a few. Giving China a free pass into our land (via ROP) is not something we should do if we're afraid of them.

Obviously, it is not just me that wants this alliance, though you can keep claiming that if you like. While you are not alone in your opinion, neither am I.

I never said it was just you who wanted the alliance. I will try rephrasing what I said so you can understand it:

YOU want the alliance so you posted the instructions to make it irregardless of whether the rest of us want it or not. I understand there are others who want the alliance. I think you understand as well that there are those who don't want it. That's what irks me the most and that's why you've lost my vote. You just went ahead and posted your instructions without discussion or polling once the situation changed and you had clear signals that the alliance might not be wanted by the citizens!

The main objection I have with a Chinese war is that they do not border us, and any land we took would be more a liability than anything else. We would spend a huge amount of resources defending our border, and gain almost nothing. We can still upgrade our military, as we are still making a significant amount of gold.

So who wants a war with China? Not me. But I do think that if China attacked it wouldn't be the end of Fanatika. I also don't think the war would be long. You may want to read my reply to Plexus above. We're making alot of gold because our science rate is at zero. The longer it stays at zero the further behind we get in the tech race. The main reason we can still upgrade our military is the fact that we haven't done it already! We could have used the gold we spent buying alliances to do the upgrades.

And finally, please stop with the accusations. They are unsupported, and unwarranted.

You posted a turn chat instruction without proper discussion or polling. That is my accusation. It is definately supported because there was no discussion and if it weren't for the poll that I posted there would have been no poll at all. The accusations are also warranted because I am a citizen of Fanatika and I have the right (via free speech) to call on elected officials to answer for their actions.

Nothing significant had changed since the last discussions, so I did not see any need to go through it all again. It seems to me that you wish you could have done what you accuse me of doing, only with a different outcome. There is nothing that makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's, including mine. Also, those instructions could have been carried out during the last turn of last turn chat...

And again, take a look at our southern cities. They are all defended by a single unit! We would lose all of them very, very quickly if the Chinese decided to launch an attack within the next few turns. I intend to keep that from happening. The rest of your complaints about the strategies being used do not fall under my jurisdiction, so you are barking up the wrong tree, so to speak.

 

[amirsan]

i agree

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei

Nothing significant had changed since the last discussions, so I did not see any need to go through it all again. It seems to me that you wish you could have done what you accuse me of doing, only with a different outcome. There is nothing that makes your opinion more valid than anyone else's, including mine. Also, those instructions could have been carried out during the last turn of last turn chat...

Nothing significant had changed? You still don't get it do you? The alliance was voted down in the turn chat 8-6. I call that significant enough to step back, discuss things more and repoll.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig


Nothing significant had changed? You still don't get it do you? The alliance was voted down in the turn chat 8-6. I call that significant enough to step back, discuss things more and repoll.

I don't put much stock in spot votes. They are not representative of the entire citizenry, as that one showed. The poll for this alliance ended 11-5-1, and don't try to tell me that the extra 3gpt made the difference. It was simply different people voting, that should have voted on the forum poll.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei


I don't put much stock in spot votes. They are not representative of the entire citizenry, as that one showed. The poll for this alliance ended 11-5-1, and don't try to tell me that the extra 3gpt made the difference. It was simply different people voting, that should have voted on the forum poll.

Oh High and Mighty Moderator please tell us how you know it was different people that voted in the spot vote! Were the citizens that voted in this poll different, too?


I apologize for ever bringing this up. You managed to get a quick poll passed to suit your needs and I should have known that would be the end of it no matter what sensible arguments are made against your proposal.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig


Oh High and Mighty Moderator please tell us how you know it was different people that voted in the spot vote! Were the citizens that voted in this poll different, too?


I apologize for ever bringing this up. You managed to get a quick poll passed to suit your needs and I should have known that would be the end of it no matter what sensible arguments are made against your proposal.

I don't see how my being a moderator has anything whatsoever to do with this.

I am guessing that different people voted because I do not see why 3gpt would cause that many to change their votes. Also keep in mind that the first poll on this subject reached quorum, not just quick poll quorum, so it carries far more validity than either the spot vote or this poll.

You are becoming rather insulting. I am sorry if things did not go as you hoped they would. It doesn't always work that way in the demogame. This has nothing to do with my needs or wants. I could not care less about an alliance with the Chinese on a personal level. I do, however, think it is the best thing to do....so I voted that way when I broke this tie.

I deleted the rest of this post, because it was derogatory and served no real purpose other to inflame. I will leave this thread open long enough for you to post one more response if you wish, but please follow my lead and refrain from insults. If you wish to pursue this further, I suggest you ask for a PI.

 

[Veera Anlai]

A few things about this poll... If this is a Quick Poll, then it must be struck down as invalid.
CoS.F.4.C.3.b.i states that Deals with a duration (resources or gold/turn involved) may NOT be quick polled. The results of this poll are not binding and may not be used to make decisions.

Everything that follows only applies if this was an official poll

If this darned thing was an Official Poll (You really must label them better) then it still won't be officially binding because it had not reached quorum.

Eyrei, this poll was *not* legally binding, so you weren't within your rights to break the tie and and use the results of it. Neither was it proper for you to close the poll before it reached quorum. However, Eyrei is absolved from legal culpability in this matter due to Donsig's improper labelling of the poll, so the blame cannot be lain at his step.

Donsig, in the future, please note what type of poll you're making to prevent problems like this.

 

[Cyc]

Not that I would presume to know more about polls than the Chief Justice, but...
Although donsig's informational post contained a lot of information and definitely showed signs of a lot of work, it was poorly worded in an official manner. But because our COS is so lax in standards that pertain to simple outlines for polls, the style of wording at the begining of this poll is commonplace. 40J brought this up a week ago or so and then was quickly persuaded to drop the issue. Every time we find this problem, we shot ourselves in the foot because it's too much work, or we fear the citizens won't write polls anymore (like they do now, ha!). Anyway, by the casual wording donsig used to explain this poll would be open for one day so as to be used in the next chat (wording that may be referenced back to the 3 books), he indicated in a common fashion that is was in deed a quick poll. I am not condoning donsig's wording, I am saying that normally this kind of wording is generally accepted in Fanatika.

I'm glad this poll is invalid in the eyes of the Justice Department, though, as such, it can not be used in an official manner against either party. This is a good thing.

On the other hand, as it was declared invalid and therefore unofficial, it is now deemed an informational poll. As stated in the Constitution, part of eyrei's job is to assertain the will of the people on issues falling under the umbrella of the F/A Dept. If such knowledge is unattainable, because of whatever reasons, then he is to organize a course of action to take in these matters himself. Plus, if there is a poll on the matter that ends in a tie (which, by donsig's declaration in the informational post, it had ended), then as the F/A Leader, eyrei is required to break the tie by casting the deciding vote.

So bsically, I agree with you on the big picture, Veera. Not only was no one really at fault here, but basic, proper procedure was followed. The actions taken due to the results of this poll can not be reversed without damaging the world opinion of our great Nation, so let's end the current strife over the issue and move on.

Although it would not be a bad idea to fix the damn Poll Standards about what must be listed in plain English for the informational post of each and every poll.

 

[Veera Anlai]

I'm not saying that the poll was declared invalid *because* of its wording. It was declared invalid because Quick Polls cannot be used to make decisions on treaties.
And if Donsig claims this was an official poll, then it is invalid because it didn't reach quorum.

 

[amirsan]

There was no quorum.

 

[FortyJ]

Talk about screaming at the walls...

This point is moot people. The alliance has been signed and we should move on.

<><><><><>

On a side note, however, I would still like to see a change to the polling requirements so that the wording will be more consistent from one official poll to another. I will look into drafting another proposal on this matter this weekend.

 

[Veera Anlai]

I heartily agree Forty. I don't see why there has been resistance to the idea in the past.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
I'm not saying that the poll was declared invalid *because* of its wording. It was declared invalid because Quick Polls cannot be used to make decisions on treaties.
And if Donsig claims this was an official poll, then it is invalid because it didn't reach quorum.

Excuse me people, didn't eyrei try ramming this alliance down our throats in the first place using a quick poll? Now the Chief Justice steps in and reminds us all that Quick Polls are invalid for treaties. That fits in well with my whole point: this alliance was not properly polled in the first place!

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Veera Anlai
Donsig, in the future, please note what type of poll you're making to prevent problems like this.

Well, as a mere citizen I'm still confused as to whether I can post official polls. The only reason I posted this poll was because eyrei wasn't doing his job as FA leader. I am quite surprised (and saddened) that I'm the only one willing to point this out to him.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by eyrei


I don't see how my being a moderator has anything whatsoever to do with this. ..

I will leave this thread open long enough for you to post one more response if you wish, but please follow my lead and refrain from insults. If you wish to pursue this further, I suggest you ask for a PI.

Well, I assumed you must have had some knowledge available only to moderators when you stated that different people had voted in the first poll and the spot vote. Now that you say you're guessing that different people voted perhaps you're willing to admit that some people did change their minds on this issue.
It is also not fair for you to threaten to close this thread after I make one more reply. The issue being discussed here is between a citizen and his elected leader. Since you are the leader in question you are not only welcome to participate int he discussion, it is expected of you. But you should leave your mod powers behind when you post in this thread. If you think I've been insulting then report it to another mod.
As for a PI, I had given up any hope of that as I hadn't seen anything illegal. Now that the Cj has stated that quick polls can't be used for treaties I will ask for a PI into your initial Quick Poll.

 

[Veera Anlai]

Excuse me people, didn't eyrei try ramming this alliance down our throats in the first place using a quick poll? Now the Chief Justice steps in and reminds us all that Quick Polls are invalid for treaties. That fits in well with my whole point: this alliance was not properly polled in the first place!

I had not noticed that Donsig; you're correct, and had it been brought to my attention sooner, the poll would have been invalidated. Since the treaty has already been implemented though, I don't see what there is to do to rectify the situation.

As for who can post official polls, that is not covered clearly in our Three Books. It is my *opinion* that anyone can post an official poll as long as the poll is presented in the correct format and follows proper procedure. I think I'll take the issue up with the rest of the Judiciary.

 

[donsig]

I have formally requested a PI.

 

[Veera Anlai]

After further review, it is clear that *any* citizen has the right to post a poll, as stated in CoL.A.3.D, "Citizens may create polls on any topic."