Should you be able to get a loan?

[Dnomal]

I was thinking in civ should you be able to take out loans? After all countries did do it in history, www1 and 2 Britain borrowed vast sums from the US, not to mention governments borrowing money from Banks and war bonds.

Think about it, you borrow say 1,000 gold, and you have to pay back 10 gold for 120 turns,(interest) it would be an intersting diplomatic option wouldnt it? You could pay for upgrading troops, and to be able to rush production.

A annoyed civ might offer you a loan with say 15% interst, while a cautious civ 10% a pleased 5% and a very freindly civ MIGHT just offer you an interst free loan.

Thoughts?

 

[cthom]

mmm. i think i spot a flaw. you could borrow a load of money, build an army with it and destroy the lender

 

[Ginger_Ale]

They had this in Civ3 (well, it wasn't called "loans") - one of the options on the diplomacy screen was "Care to loan us some gold?". They AI would either decline, or offer you something like 400 gold for 25 gold per turn. Basically, in exchange for giving you 400 gold up front, they are actually receiving 500 gold from you (Civ3's deals lasted 20 turns), making 100 gold in profit.

I think that's one of the drawbacks of Civ4's system where you can't trade lump sum for gold per turn. It would be a way to have a loan system without having to do anything too complex.

 

[Elandal]

Loans between nations haven't happened until in recent history. More commonly, the king has appropriated the holdings of some organization he wasn't so fond of - eg. Philip IV disbanded the Knights Templar, with reasons mainly being that the order was quite rich and Philip needed the cash (there were other reasons too of course, and the money issue was downplayed a lot).

Borrowing from your own country isn't really an option in cIV, as you already control the whole economy - there is no economy that isn't in your gpt.

Per game mechanics there would be a way to borrow gold from other civs except for the fact that gpt can only be traded for resources and lump sums for immediate effects. Otherwise this kind of borrowing could be simulated by getting gold for some gpt, which would pretty much have to be a 10 turn deal - deals can't be canelled in that time except by declaring war (which automatically cancels deals). And thinking about that war declaration side - this would make it possible to get a lump sum without retorting to "give me gold or else!" (that you can already do), thus getting gold from the civ you're about to attack without a diplomatic penalty associated with extortion.

 

[Dnomal]

mmm. i think i spot a flaw. you could borrow a load of money, build an army with it and destroy the lender

I see your point, what about not having the option to declare war on the lender, untill the debt is re-paid, this would mean that only civs you are freindly or not likely to war with you could lend money.

Also borrowing money from other civs dosent have to be available from the beginning, instead loan option could be unlocked with say, Economics or Corporation.

 

[rtabbs]

Nice idea IMO.Just two things

Maybe there should be kinda "financial reputation", depending on what the player's refunding history has been. Think of some country like Germany may borrow international money 5% interest, meanwhile Argentina may borrow money i.e. 35% interest.

About the gold x GPT trade, and since the deal is not automaticly cancelled after x turns, that gold may be considered as a "foreign investment", with the risk of losing it if war declared.That investment should have a GPT return.

 

[Crighton]

I don't see why a similar system mentioned above using the financial reputation and borrowing from a friendly AI couldn't be done, though to match reality you should be able to have some deficit spending (I'll let others more versed in game mechanics and economics take it from here).

 

[vilemerchant]

How about a wonder called the World Bank or something which comes mid-game. It could have a few little economic benefits for the civ that builds it, but once built all civs could apply for loans which must be repaid every turn with interest.

 

[Bradlius]

How about a wonder called the World Bank or something which comes mid-game. It could have a few little economic benefits for the civ that builds it, but once built all civs could apply for loans which must be repaid every turn with interest.

Yes, I was just thinking of that -- the World Bank. But could the game mechanics force you to use that money for only peaceful purposes? It would suck to take out a big loan just to finance a war-machine.
As far as the OP reference to WWI and WWII Lend-Lease program, it's pretty do-able now. Just make units, send them to your allies, and gift them. I do it often, but ONLY to civ's that are very friendly with me.

 

[BadHorsie]

I could see this being hugely exploited, where people start relyingon it too much. Rather like chopping.

 

[ferenginar]

I think it would be a good idea, given specific rules.

You cannot declare war on the lender.

There is a fixed repayment term eg 25 turns (this will stop you making long term loans to secure non aggression)

You can declare war on the borrower, but it cancels out any remaining debt.

Whilst in a loan agreement neither party may demand tribute of the other.

Loan notes cannot be traded.

 

[K.F. Huszár]

Hi everyone.
I don't think it is fair if you can not eclare war on the lender. WHY NOT?
But if you lose the war, you have to continue the repays.

 

[CivDude86]

Only problem is money doesn't have much peaceful usefuls IMO. I don't think many people are going to take a loan out to rush build some buildings (maybe a wonder), maybe to speed up research of some SS part tech but I can see it mostly being used to upgrade/rush build units.

 

[Exel]

Iirc the Gold for GPT trade (ie. loans) was removed from Civ4 because it turned out as a huge potential exploit in Civ3. You could ask the AI to loan money to you and declare war on the next turn. Guess they figured it was easier to just prohibit it altogether than to make the AI more cautious about it.

I see a couple of possible easy solutions for the issue though. For one you could script the AI to not lend money to anyone who is more powerful than them militarily - should be pretty easy to do I imagine. Second, you could make it so that if you do declare war with your lender before the deal is over and debt repaid, you'll get a huge diplomatic penalty and no civ will ever consider lending you money again - kind of like how the Open Borders treaty works.

 

[CivDude86]

Then just include a peace treaty with the loan.

 

[Dnomal]

Iirc the Gold for GPT trade (ie. loans) was removed from Civ4 because it turned out as a huge potential exploit in Civ3. You could ask the AI to loan money to you and declare war on the next turn. Guess they figured it was easier to just prohibit it altogether than to make the AI more cautious about it.

I see a couple of possible easy solutions for the issue though. For one you could script the AI to not lend money to anyone who is more powerful than them militarily - should be pretty easy to do I imagine. Second, you could make it so that if you do declare war with your lender before the deal is over and debt repaid, you'll get a huge diplomatic penalty and no civ will ever consider lending you money again - kind of like how the Open Borders treaty works.

Sounds good, but also if you DO declare war on someone after taking out a loan how about part of the preace treaty includes paying back the rest of the loan as reperations, at a higher rate, and some diplomatic penality.

As for taking out loans from a world bank it sounds good, but whats to stop you from taking out a loan from the world bank, then raising the city with the world bank wonder, thus clearing your loan.

Also i think the AI should calculate how much you could pay back, not giving 10,000 gold loans to civs with 3 mediocre cities.

 

[troyDoogle7]

I think Smac had the best system for loans.

You would get a set payment rate from the loan to the other faction.. If there was a war then the they would suspend paying the load until the end of the hostilities. They would then resume the loan.. Really simple! and really missed

 

[Salah-Al-Din]

I think it would be a good idea, given specific rules.

You cannot declare war on the lender.

I think you should be able to do this, but get negative diplo points with every other country, so they say something like "-1 You have a Bad Credit History".... and -2 or -3 for increasing ammounts of debt.

You should have a credit history, and it should affect the chances of taking loans from other countries and also from the World Bank.

In fact, you should even be able to default on loans or declare bankruptcy. Then they could tie in the World Bank with the United Nations, since most of us want to see an expanded UN role in future Civ games. So the UN could be used to make member states pay up or face sanctions.

I agree with those who said that there should deficit spending...and your people should become unhappy when you are in deficit, saying something like "-1 for failing to balance budget" ...

And yeah, World Bank idea rocks. And I see no problem with taking money to fund your military.

 

[Register666666]

I like it and hope it's possible.

Defaults and stuff wouldn't be a bad idea since it can be reflected in reputation/credit.

 

[Dark Sheer]

The problem is AI do not know how to handle it in CivIII which I believe that is why they remove it rather than take out loan then declare war on lender. In CivIII if you declare war on someone you have a deal with it is quite a huge rep hit so I doubt that is the reason they remove it in CivIV. Rather, the AI will look at its gpt when considering whether to accept a loan offer from you. And the AI sucks big time on that. I have not even once able to loan the AI say 1000gp and asking for a 1gpt in return for 20 turns. I think any human player will grab the deal (more like a form of foreign aid ) but in CivIII the AI will always reject my offer 10 out of 10 times.