Sid the Science Kid

[Killroyan]

Oh what the heck. I will spice up the game with some crazy stupid moves from me so you guys get a real challenge So playmode on. Too many good players in here so I should be save and maybe I am able to say I have beaten immortal as Sid

So if I understand everything right it means we will have no strategic resources unless some pop up by chance and we will have to conquer the world with archers and catapults As long as the AI doesn't have those resources either then we might have a chance. I am glad we will have cats. I am playing a game right now with only archer/rifle units. It is almost impossible to get anytyhing done

 

[FiveRings]

The usual LURKER suspects are here, too, so, please, keep us well informed, please!
And good luck!

 

[nocho]

Any thoughts on where to settle? If nothing major comes up out of the fog, SIP doesn't look particularly attractive. I might sacrifice a FP and settle 2W1S. Good bureau cap and for now likely still enough forests to compensate FP unhealth.

 

[Cam_H]

It's a good thought nocho. I'm usually not too enthusiastic about coastal starts as it is, and in this case perhaps even less so! I'd be fine with the proposed 2W1S plan.

I'm not sure how long those forests will last however, as we'll probably be wanting to go after The Pyramids.

 

[Killroyan]

What about just 1SW. We loose a floodplain but we pick up the sheep and the pig and have enough forests and hills to get things going.

Is it possible to send the warrior 1SW to check for more resources?

 

[Cam_H]

1SW still misses the Pigs because it's two tiles on the diagonal.

 

[lymond]

1SW does not get the Pigs.

edit: derp....xpost

I'm not opposed to Nocho's suggestions. SIP is horrid and I don't see it improving with revealed tiles - possible plains resource due east. Nocho's spot at least looks somewhat like a cap should be.

Warrior move initially ain't gonna do much for us either way. Since we will lose a turn on the settler move, we could move the warrior 1SW and then 1NW (on the pigs) before actually settling just to see what is revealed first.

Oh and whip the Settler onto the grass hill 2W to get a longer view, since he can still settle the desired spot the next turn.

 

[Killroyan]

Oh dang, that is what you get when you have to start your work at 05.45 in the morning

 

[Cam_H]

Just to confirm the roster;

lymond << Up
vranasm << On Deck
Killroyan
nocho
Sengir
Cam​

Still happy however for others to sign up.

 

[lymond]

I will do the moves I suggested for turn 0 and post the save/screenshot. I think we are in agreement that we need to move regardless, so I'll move the settler and warrior and then we can discuss.

 

[lymond]

Okay, I moved the settler and warrior as discussed. Here's the view:

Spoiler :

Not too bad really assuming we settle 1S of where the settler currently stands, the spot Nocho suggested. Lots of FPs, Pig Iron, and 3 hills. Fairly decent cap. I don't see really any other option to 1S for settling.

Obviously, having no techs at all and not traits hurts. AG>AH seems obvious. We really want those pigs. After that, I'm torn between Mining>BW or TW>POT. I think we really need some cottages soon here since we're behind the eight ball. However, if we don't show horses, we may want to see copper.

As for builds, I'd go worker first and farm an FP or two. Another option, considering this variant, is to time the worker to AH and build a warrior or two first so that we can grow a bit and not farm any FPs in expectation of cottaging everything. We may have idle worker turns regardless.

 

[vranasm]

Cam will be happy not even I would oppose cottages here ;-)

Agree with settling the spot L.

I think you could play up to AH.

I think the path towards BW is too long without pottery.

Btw when we're at it...can barbs field better units then archers without copper/iron? Will we tech Archery ourself, since it is best military tech for a looong time?

As for if to farm 1-2 flood plains to cover the turns...it's 50:50 imo...you could flip coin...maybe building 1-2 more warriors for early fogbusting and scouting can prove useful.

 

[nocho]

Obviously, having no techs at all and not traits hurts. AG>AH seems obvious. We really want those pigs. After that, I'm torn between Mining>BW or TW>POT. I think we really need some cottages soon here since we're behind the eight ball. However, if we don't show horses, we may want to see copper.

We are sure not to see any horses nor copper.

I'd definitively advocate as early pottery as possible. Somehow I'd even contemplate teching pot before AH... We'll need to self tech archery too. BW imo can be postponed a bit.

 

[lymond]

ack! i'm just so used to thinking strats

Pigs are just too important as our only real food resource. With TW/POT after AH we could head straight to writing. I think the sooner we get scientists running the better in this game.

Not totally sure on the barbs, V. I've always though the barbs did need copper in one of their cities - anywhere on the map. I don't think it even needs to be improved, just within their borders.

I think archery can be delayed for a while though. Probably can get by with warriors for a long time. The mos important thing here is boosting our research asap.

 

[vranasm]

i think i will have to code dive it a bit then...it's pretty important.

I am sure that if city spawns on copper it has 3 axes instead of archers. What I am not sure is how it's picked spawned barb unit in the fog...

 

[Sengir]

I'm pretty sure that barbs are related to techs, not available resources, so barb-axes will show up regardless of copper being available. I'd have to check the code as well to be completely sure though.

Anyway, I'd settle 1S of the current position as well, and tech AG > AH > TW > Pottery. BW can wait a bit I think, but we can decide after we have AH. I wouldn't farm the FP's. It takes too long and we're planning to cottage them anyway. Better to start with a few warriors and time the Worker to coincide with finishing AH.

 

[lymond]

You may be right about barbs. I just finished an HOF game on Boreal map which for some reason never gets barb cities that I've seen, yet their were plenty of axes and spears. The need for archery then will probably rely on how much land is around us and the effectiveness of spawnbusting. I'd prefer to delay it as much as possible. We'd have to tech Hunting as well.

ha...hopefully we'll pop some nice starting techs with these huts

I'm leaning toward the TW>POT route as well. BW would be nice for whips an chops, but beakers may be more important early.

 

[FiveRings]

I think I have come across a statement that the Barbs get the units that at least one other player has built - at least up to a certain age. I think I have encountered Barbarian HAs and Maces.

 

[lymond]

^^^I've never fully understood it myself. You may be right but after a certain point it seems the AIs lag behind for a while. For instance, barbs seem to get LBs and Mace quite a bit after I acquire them myself. It may work such that a certain number of civs have to have the techs. Who knows...i'm not a code diver. V will figure it out.

Barb HAs are interesting. I don't see them on most maps I play ever. However, they do appear on Great Plains maps for some reason. I encountered this recently, to very ill effect, in a recent HOF challenge I was attempting. An injured Barb HA (like 4 strength) got an extremely low odds kill on a long fortified and protective archer of mine in Mecca. Needless to say, that was game over.

 

[vranasm]

I very quickly checked "createBarbarianUnits" in CvGame.cpp and it looks like the spawning algorithm checks for techs prereq but not for the actual resource.

but there is couple of things hidden from the DLL and is directly in .exe hardcoded (thus not checkable) and could be very important stuff (for example there is function that probably returns list of units for civilization and no way to check this)

but the tech is checked a bit later though in a loop without checking resources.

Soooo i would say once barbs reach BW, IW, HBR they can spawn respective units without resource (or we should just count with it).

Now the other question is when barbs actually reach those techs... since barb AI doesn't tech normal way there is some algorithm and they usually lag somewhat behind.... dunno if it's tied to the slowest AI or some average... maybe will look into it too.