Sirian's Sand Box

Well since we accepted peace and broke an alliance I'd say our rep is shot all to hell, but since we're only trading extra resources I guess we won't need the income anyway. :rolleyes: Not blaming you Bam-Bam, since you're following the concept for the game, just wish that whole situation had turned out differently. :(

Ah, anywho, I'll get this tonight.

(Have we gotten Sanitation yet? If not, that will be my *first* priority since "population = power!")
 
Ozy,

Sanitation is due in 3 turns. At that point, many of the stock exchanges will be complete, and 85-90% of the railroading should be complete, so you should be able to start a round of hospitals in many cities the turn Sanitation completes, and another set the next turn. You will need to do a lot of MM'ing put cities on high food, since >80% of the cities are set for max shields @ size 12. After sanitation, I suggested RepParts, since the double-speed workers will help us reconfigure cities for growth more quickly. The AIs also have Refining, which should probably come next, so that we can spot the oil.

About the alliances--yeah, I hated to break them--was hoping Abe would dial up the other AIs for peace first. Not bloody likely, since we were the ones putting the hurting on him. I found it interesting that Abe decided to dial up for peace in the first interturn after I had decided not to take any more of his cities. Maybe he had a spy in my computer? Or perhaps he has the snooping skills of T-Hawk and unearthed Sirian's variant rules? I also heard a rumor that Abe has been searching for a long-lost Descent Level archive. :p :lol:
 
Once that much hurt was piled on, it was inevitable that he would sue for peace. Conversely, if we had taken over only the sites that were behind our long-established border, that we had legitimate claim to, there was a chance of him reaching peace threshold with the other AI's first.

I think I understand most of what Sirian had in mind.

Does not appear to be the case. :undecide: I realize how tempting it is to reach out and put the smack down from a position of strength, but I made it as clear as I could that that was not to be the game plan. OF COURSE we can reach out and crush our opponents from this position on Emperor, thus ensuring victory. Now that we've done some of that, why stop there? Why not hamstring France, too? Then Korea? How about we oscillate wars and keep the AI's divided for the rest of the game and try to keep them in communism? Or just march on to military victory.

We can skip the research phase and stop now. Pandora's box has been opened. All the king's horses and all the king's men cannot put Humpty together again.

The prospect of a research race was the main appeal to the end game. Letting the AI's compete at that without our military interference was essential to the value of that process. I really did try to impart that understanding, that our military was to be used only for defense. I am honestly surprised at how far Bam-Bam prosecuted the war. I am at a loss as to where I failed in portraying the core game concept intended here, but clearly I did, and not just for one player, but the whole team, from beginning clear through to the end.


I realize that this game's vision was an artificial one, that it plays counterintuitively. However, that's the only way to get a competitive end game short of playing on Deity: through variant rules. Would the ending have BEEN competitive? I don't know. Likely not. It's too late to find out here, but I still have my private game, of which this one was effectively an SG shadow, to see how this concept unfolds. And in that one, I did not draw the bad luck of one AI off the pangaea, nor of one AI swallowing another early. So I do not go away upset. We had the fun of building and planning. I got Joanie to offer us one major tech sale, which was satisfying. The experience was worthwhile.

I'm sorry for the ambiguities in the rules for this game. Perhaps there is still an end game here for the rest of you. If you guys want to finish this one, with or without adherence to the original rules, feel free. You can decide amongst yourselves how to finish.

Thanks for signing on. I enjoyed playing with you all. I enjoyed the laughs, the give and take, the shared journey. Good luck if you decide to continue.


- Sirian
 
aka mea culpa

Sirian, obviously, we are a different ends of our civ playing experience. I am still (relatively) new to the game, and though I can understand many of your game balance and lack of legs issues with the game--they do not yet register fully with me. Yes, sometimes they hit me upside the head--early warfare and mass unit upgrades still rub me the wrong way, and the overemphasis on combat in the whole game may lead it to shorter legs, but I have not felt all of these things for as long as you (and many others) have. Ah well. I struggled with how far to pursue this, and felt a reasonable compromise was to leave him two rings. I felt restrained--my gut instinct was to wipe him off the map. The urge to punish his random-number generated decision to invade our sandbox was too much for me. Ah well--I can remember that most of my turns ended with me fortifying 15-20 cavs in cities...never done that before. New feeling of not unleashing full power of the war machine when attacked. So I got some of it--but obviously all of the message and intent was not received. I see it now (ah, the benefits of hindsight), and am surprised I missed it.

The engineer in me wants to go back to the explicit words written in the forum and what you expressly stated was our intent. Nah--I do not believe the the old express written intent ala major league baseball. There can be no perfect ruleset, there is not an expressly written guide that can cover all of what happens in games/life. I did not take the message to heart. I am disappointed. Not angry--just disappointed to see that what could have been may be more interesting--especially looking at other context of how the game (overall, not just this one) has played in your eyes.

Not even going to ask what would have constituted a more restrained response to Abe. I can see in my turns exactly where I ventured out of the grey of discouragement to the black of punishment. Bloody h%ll.

Yes. Fun game. Sorry for missing the intent in execution. These games are lots of fun, and my only general issue is that the medium does not quite fit my preferred modes of communication, which may be why I miss intent. I do not write for a living (other than for program and technical direction, which is a different story altogether). Most of what I do is phone and face-to-face. These mediums are much easier for intent. Guess there is room for growth my skills in this medium. C'est la vie.
 
Since Sirian is bowing out I will as well. I think I'll load up from Sirian's last save and just take the American cities inside our borders then turtle up and beat off Abe's ofensive moves and see how that game unfolds. I'll admit I didn't recognize the landscape when I saw the last picture of when we had captured so many American cities. :eek:

Thanks all, and my apologies to you Sirian for apparently missing the point with my comment of wanting to keep Abe off Joanie by taking his over-reach cities. :(

Oh well. :o
 
I've got a thing or two to say, though.


Firstly: Sirian, Ozy, and everyone - I've enjoyed playing with y'all, even if it might've not seemed that way a time or two. ;) Will hope to see you all in more games, and at RBCiv.

Secondly: Me, I'm still having fun with this one, Abe losing a couple more cities than anticipated or no. I see it like this: Yes, Abe's in an awful lot of trouble now, and will never be a threat to us again, militarily or likely scientificly, but France and Korea are still there, yes? Trying to research our way to space may still offer a challenge.

I've even got faith we can keep off the warmongering path. Stick to the variant rules, etc. *shrug*

So here I am, and I'd like to keep going. Anybody?
 
Dwip--I'll bite. Heck--I'd even give Abe back his cities. Yes, that does not put humpty dumpty back together, I know. My gut says that Joanie and Wang (especially with the free tech) will still give a challenge. Ah well. My only problem is that I am trying to ramp down SGs. I overcommitted myself, and find not enough time to play solo games such as the Epics. I missed 29, even though I started, and since I haven't started 30 yet (oh to be the sponsor and finish the game before it starts...:p YES--I know all I have to do is come up with a valid scenario...just that some of us are not as creatively gifted as this game's sponsor :p ), which probably means it will not happen either. I am desparately trying to finish this GOTM--yes it isn't exactly my cup of tea--scoring civ just is lost on me for the most part--but we all have to try something once, I am actually having a ball with the game.

So--I'm game to continue, but think we need at least three to make it a valid go, with some relaxation on the timing rules IMO.
 
All fine by me. I too missed the last couple of Epics, despite wanting to play - 2 Civ SGs and a M:TW SG suck waaaaay too much time. So relaxation on timing is fine by me. As to the three-person team... Skyfish, you game? :)
 
Dwip: yes, perhaps we'll play together again. Good luck with this continuation.

Bam-Bam: Feasting has twice swallowed Charis whole. The second time, Gris and I both urged him to moderate, but that just wasn't in the cards. He had the itch, then scratched it raw.

I thought about giving the cities back. That wouldn't really fix anything. I also thought about Ozy's solution, but that wouldn't really fix things either. The suspension of disbelief has been breached, the spell shattered.

The problem lies in the game design. Civ3's two early ages are much stronger for the AI. The late ages, they war too much; rails allow players to defend too easily; you run out of useful things to build. Civ3 has never gotten beyond this Jekyll-and-Hyde mechanism. If you want to enjoy the early game, you have to accept that the late game will be a foregone conclusion. The only way to make the late game competitive is to dig a hole so deep, even expert play has trouble climbing out.

The very first Builder SG was also derailed by military in the late game. That's where "Chose Unwisely" came from as a metaphor. This game could be viewed, largely, as a replay of that one, in many regards. That genie, once unleashed, cannot be put back into the bottle. The game itself pushes toward major conflict in the industrial era. I have no problem understanding the notion of looking up from the smoking ruins of your enemy and wondering how that happened. Civ3 has a way of turning players into the Hulk. :lol: "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry." :lol:

Good luck with the rest of the game.


- Sirian
 
Well, I guess the three person continuation question has been definitively answered, hrm?
 
Perhaps so, though it seems a tad late in the game to adding people. *shrug* Bam-Bam? Whaddya think?
 
Dwip--though I have enjoyed this game., I am in danger of Charis-like burn out. So having an SG end by TKO makes me sad for some reasons, my logical half says that this all makes sense. I say let the game die.
 
If you want closure, you could just have one person take the game and play it out to completion. Sirian and I have both done that for a game or two. No real need to go through the succession-game motions for a foregone conclusion that really won't teach anything, but it can be nice to see the finality of that "You Win!" screen. :)
 
I did take the save from the end of Sirians turn and play the game out.

Highlights in case anyone is interested...

Fought the war with America and did take the "thumb" cities they had stuck up into our turf. I also took two Las Vegas and Richmond because they had thick jungles on their other sides, where I could pillage the roads and slow down the American attack. Other than that I turtled to wait out the storm.

France and America made peace with about 10 turns left in our alliance but Korea and America fought until about 4 turns left, when they made peace. I attacked the American troops in our territory, killing as many of them as possible (they had swarmed over the boarders when peace with France was made) and my last attack was with the War Elephant, thus saving the GA for peace time.

No wars for the rest of the game for us, and the AI's were humming right along, staying 2-4 techs ahead until America declared war on Korea about 1700, and they stayed at war for a long, long time. Korea changed from Democracy to Monarchy because they bombarded the American coas the entire time.

Korea and America finally established peace just long enough for America to get Motorized Transport, Radio and Flight and then they declared war on the French. Abe swallowed about 5 cities in 5 turns right off the bat (he had a large army from fighting to take the Korean cities earlier) so I traded Joanie Oil, Rubber, Iron and Aluminum so she could build tanks and other defensive stuff.

With over 37k in the bank I kept 4 turn research going the entire time. Korea made it into the modern age first and got Rocketry, the bogged down drastically and never got more than 2 more tech's in the Modern age by the time our Spaceship was complete. Abe and Joanie stabilized in their war with about 1/3 of France gone, and neither ever researched more than 2 tech's in the Modern age that I could tell, although both had Computers, but not Synthetic Fibers.

Spaceship launched in 1870 AD, about 4 turns later than it should have but I waited until the trade deal with Joanie expired. All the modern tech's necessary for space had been discovered with the addition of Smart Weapons on the way to building the SDI defense thing. Final score of 6400-6500.

Oh, and I gave Abe a parting gift of three ICBM's to his top three cities of Washington, New York and San Francisco on the turn before the last two cities finished the ship. :P Heh, I had our entire border staffed with MI 3 deep (on one square), stacked with fortifications and about 5 artillery for each position. He broke through the line but would have been pulverized on my next turn because I had build 100 artillery, we still had all the Cavalry, and a handful of tanks and Modern Armor.

Fun game, but after it was clear the AI wars were killing their science it just became a waiting game.
 
Back
Top Bottom