Size 2 city being auto-razed after attacking

[MrSweetchuck]

I just attacked a size 2 city and I defeated all of its defenders in one turn. But as soon as I do, the city turns to rubble. I've never seen this before. I thought size 2 cities were safe for invading?

 

[Bartleby]

Did you declare war by attacking the city? If so it sounds like the "scared to death" bug (the attack results in the loss of a pop point for some reason).
If you were already at war, then I dunno...

 

[justanick]

Is your opponent in despotism or another government type with poprushing?

 

[Civinator]

Another possibility would be, that you inadvertently have enabled the city elimination shortgame option, but in that case all cities of that civ would have "turned to rubble".

 

[MrSweetchuck]

Did you declare war by attacking the city? If so it sounds like the "scared to death" bug (the attack results in the loss of a pop point for some reason).

Yes, I did in fact. Hmmm.. I didn't even know there was such a bug! But it appears to describe what happened exactly. (If anyone wants to study this bug more closely, I have a save file that perfectly demonstrates it )

 

[Lanzelot]

it sounds like the "scared to death" bug (the attack results in the loss of a pop point for some reason).

It's not a bug, it's a feature: upon getting a declaration of war, the AI immediately pop-rushes a defender (usually a spearman) in all towns that have pop > 1, even though it is not their turn... For that reason, it is well-known practice to gift the AI Republic the turn before your attack: during anarchy, the AI can neither pop-rush nor build defenders, and the initial attack goes much more smoothly... (Plus, if you play your cards right, by the time they get out of anarchy and into Republic, they already have accumulated enough war weariness to turn many of their citizens into entertainers, which don't build defenders either... So priorities of the first phase of war should be clear: capture 2+ towns to push their WW level beyond 30 and pillage their lux resources.)

 

[Spoonwood]

It's not a bug, it's a feature: upon getting a declaration of war, the AI immediately pop-rushes a defender (usually a spearman) in all towns that have pop > 1, even though it is not their turn

I agree that the pop-rushing has to have gotten programmed intentionally with their cities under threat.

I'm not sure that they will do this though if they have some number of defenders or some measure of strength already. Though, I haven't checked government type before wars in advanced stages or declared war much if at all in some games.

 

[Lanzelot]

True, this happens mainly in the early game, where a) AI is still in despotism and b) hasn't build a lot of units yet. Would be interesting to see, whether they do it "always", or only if they don't have "enough" units yet or only in towns that are endangered?! (Though as I usually strive to avoid all of this in the first place, the incentive of spending some time on a detailed analysis is pretty low for me... )

 

[Bartleby]

It's not a bug, it's a feature: upon getting a declaration of war, the AI immediately pop-rushes a defender (usually a spearman) in all towns that have pop > 1, even though it is not their turn... For that reason, it is well-known practice to gift the AI Republic the turn before your attack: during anarchy, the AI can neither pop-rush nor build defenders, and the initial attack goes much more smoothly... (Plus, if you play your cards right, by the time they get out of anarchy and into Republic, they already have accumulated enough war weariness to turn many of their citizens into entertainers, which don't build defenders either... So priorities of the first phase of war should be clear: capture 2+ towns to push their WW level beyond 30 and pillage their lux resources.)

Let's call it the "scared to death scenario", then. I guess what seems bug-like to me is that the AI is allowed to pop-rush during the human player's turn. Or is there any way to break into the build queue if you get sneak-attacked by the AI?

(If anyone wants to study this bug more closely, I have a save file that perfectly demonstrates it )

Do you still have this save MrSweetchuck? I'd like to test it a little. Funnily enough it happened to me just the other day but I didn't keep the relevant saves.

 

[MrSweetchuck]

Do you still have this save MrSweetchuck? I'd like to test it a little. Funnily enough it happened to me just the other day but I didn't keep the relevant saves.

I do, in fact (Actually I had deleted it recently, but it was still in the recycling bin).

It should be teed up ready to go. Try attacking Hamburg with your stack of War Chariots. Notice it's size 2 and your first chariot will probably die in battle, but then try attacking with a second chariot and you'll notice Hamburg has now gone down to size 1.

 

[Spoonwood]

Let's call it the "scared to death scenario", then. I guess what seems bug-like to me is that the AI is allowed to pop-rush during the human player's turn. Or is there any way to break into the build queue if you get sneak-attacked by the AI?

There exists no way for the AIs to move first. First mover advantage ends up more powerful potentially in civ III than in many other games, since it involves commerce, wonders, production, attacks, use of artillery ranged weaponry. Also city investigations. One never knows how much of different rules for AIs might have gotten justified by the designers, if they were to speak about this game, because of the human player's first mover advantages. But, it could include instant pop rushing.

Declaring war did work as sufficient for Hamburg shrinking to size 1.

I don't know if an AI declares war on you and you have units about to strike, that they will pop rush.

 

[Spoonwood]

For that reason, it is well-known practice to gift the AI Republic the turn before your attack: during anarchy, the AI can neither pop-rush nor build defenders, and the initial attack goes much more smoothly

I think that tactic would require the target AI to have the religious trait on Sid difficulty to work.

 

[Spoonwood]

After some looking around, I found Denniz's save here. The Hittites are still despotic, and we manage to sign an RoP with them. We send them 18 gold. Mursilis would give us 16 gold for 1 gpt, but not 17 gold for 1 gpt. This suggests we have a fully intact reputation, but above least aggressive.

A caravel gets purchased in Seattle.

The save has two Dye sources one near Ayden:

After some preliminary pillaging and changing some builds to workers, a settler gets purchased in 620a.

and one near Utrtecht according to the F2 screen. Except I find two dye sources there:

1010 AD - We make peace with Spain. Our cavalry units near Chichen Itza pillage two more tiles and land one unit right next to Hattusha:

City of Dyes gets founded on top of the Dyes near Aden (our cavalry could have pillaged it also). Note we have horses and dyes exported also. Only 3 turns left though.

1040 AD - Our merchant trades Theology and Chivalry for Furs from The English, but does not trade them dyes any longer, since doing so might severely weaken our reputation for what we plan to do.

1050 AD - We gift The Hittites City of Dyes and Utretcht. To my surprise, we have no dyes, nor do The Hittites. I guess they near a city on this land mass? I order an investigation Harran to double check that it has a harbor. And it does have a harbor. Gift The Hittites Chicago. It still seems that The Hitties can't trade between the dyes that they have on the main continent and their home island. Boost reserach to finish Navigation.

1060 AD - The Hittites have Dyes now, even though we didn't gift them Navigation. Renegotiate the peace treaty with The Hittites:

Hattusha is still size 6. And The Hittites are despotic. We have a medieval infantry pillage. After one cavalry pillages the last remaining road directly adjacent to our capital, The Hittites declare war on us. Hattusha is sitll size 6. Our medieval infantry attacks, wins, and Hattusha is still size 6.

I order the 1050 AD file loaded. But this time we declare war. Hattusha is still size 6. The medieval infantry attacks and Hattusha still size 6.

Again, order the 1050 AD file loaded. Hattusha has 3 spearman.

Since in neither case these Hittites poprushed, I guess if they have at least three defensive units in a city, they won't pop rush *if it's not the capital*?

 

[Bartleby]

Thanks for the save, MrSweetchuck.

This shows pretty clearly that it's just pop-rushing. I did five things:

1) attacked Hamburg, after the first attack the population had fallen to 1. Also Konigsberg went from pop 2 to 1
2) reloaded, tried just declaring war without attacking; Hamburg and Konigsberg both went to pop 1
3) same as 2) but waited a turn to attack, there was an additional spearman in Hamburg (although one of the existing spearmen escorted the catapult out)
4) reloaded, skipped ahead 3 turns to learn Monarchy, declared war and Hamburg and Konigsberg both went from pop 2 to 1
5) same as 4) but gifted Monarchy to the Germans (they revolted), declared war and the populations of Hamburg and Konigsberg did not change

I had thought that I remembered "scared to death" (it wasn't me that came up with the name btw) only happened with a sneak attack, not with an up-front declaration of war, so obviously I was wrong about that. I've often used the tactic of causing the AI to revolt to stop them from pop-rushing, but I was thinking that they'd've been pop rushing on their turn, not mine (not that there's any difference in effect).

 

[Spoonwood]

but gifted Monarchy to the Germans

Next time consider gifting Russia communism as Germany, but don't wait about 20 years to attack.

Yea... that was not civ III advice.

 

[Lanzelot]

I think that tactic would require the target AI to have the religious trait on Sid difficulty to work.

Yes, on Sid, you don't get the "Anarchy Bonus", but at least you prevent the pop-rushing of extra defenders. (Though the question is: the AI revolts during your turn, right after receiving Republic. Will the 1-turn anarchy also already be over during that interturn on Sid? Then they might simply cash-rush a new defender... But at least the captured towns don't get auto-razed...)

 

[justanick]

On Sid AI gets zero anarchy duration which is overwritting by 2 turns for religious tribes. Neither of those 2 cases has 1-turn anarchy.

 

[Spoonwood]

Then they might simply cash-rush a new defender

I seem to remember someone on the modding forums, saying that the AIs do not cash rush.

 

[justanick]

I seem to remember someone on the modding forums, saying that the AIs do not cash rush.

AI does on some occasions use gold for buying shields, usually when at war and units are needed urgently.

I suspect the mechanism is similar to pop rushing, with the difference being the availability of enough gold or enough population respectively.