Skill-dorados

[The QC]

No they aren't! You're just not thinking outside the box enough. If you see someone with a natural wonder of epic proportions, you team up with EVERYONE and crush them out of existence before they get too much benefit.

If anything they can be a disadvantage in MP

Unless it's 1 vs. 1 .

 

[Ryoga]

No they aren't! You're just not thinking outside the box enough. If you see someone with a natural wonder of epic proportions, you team up with EVERYONE and crush them out of existence before they get too much benefit.

If anything they can be a disadvantage in MP

That's still bad.

 

[SamBC]

By the way, has anyone thought about the possibility of...

The Aztecs starting with Lake Victoria?

Always assuming they broke the mould and managed to make a NW that isn't considered a mountain in terms of terrain types.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

Unless it's 1 vs. 1 .

True, but the game isn't balanced for 1 v 1 really anway.

That's still bad.

It's not, you've got to use subterfuge, alliances and think about what you do. You don't have to settle a NW, but if you do you've gotta make sure you're in a position to hold onto it and face the consequences. I think it's genius and it really helps switch up the diplomatic situation in a game making it flow back and forth. There are so many things like that in civ v that can affect a good multiplayer game with people who can really stretch the game beyond its face value.

If you don't think in multiplayer against good players, you lose, no matter who you choose, no matter where you start, no matter what luck you get. You can be as good as you like in single player, but your skills do not translate to multiplayer well without adapting to the fact you have scheming, unpredictable ******** around you.

Always assuming they broke the mould and managed to make a NW that isn't considered a mountain in terms of terrain types.

Good point, i hadn't considered that! If it turns out it is a lake tile, it will make the aztecs godly should they get it. I don't see why they would make it a mountain though. It is clearly a source of fresh water and notably different from other natural wonders. It wouldn't make sense that the greatest of lakes in game cannot be used for irrigation purposes on surrounding tiles etc. The only problem i can see with it then is that you could embark on it, unless they put some special clause on it.

 

[Ryoga]

If you don't think in multiplayer against good players, you lose, no matter who you choose, no matter where you start, no matter what luck you get. You can be as good as you like in single player, but your skills do not translate to multiplayer well without adapting to the fact you have scheming, unpredictable ******** around you.

I actually don't have any MP experience but I think the idea that external factors have absolutely no influence in the success of a man (regardless of the situation) is just a nursery tale.

Moreover your arguments are at odd with the frequent and commonly accepted fact that whoever spawns near salt dominates in MP games.

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

I actually don't have any MP experience but I think the idea that external factors have absolutely no influence in the success of a man (regardless of the situation) is just a nursery tale.

Moreover your arguments are at odd with the frequent and commonly accepted fact that whoever spawns near salt dominates in MP games.

I don't mean to say they have no influence. I mean to say that there are enough checks and balances available to nullify that effect.

I don't mean to say it will be nullified every time either. But if i see a player with a 4 salt start or starting with the fountain of youth, i will message every other player i know in game and organise a party in their cities.

You can easily deal with players with strong starts if you have opportunistic, adaptable and conniving players in game. Underhand tactics can create the rule of majority. And in civ, generally speaking 3, or even 2 players can destroy one with a good start one. That is why salt and natural wonders are balanced. The challenge is finding allies as someone with a good start to counter that, because you will be seen as a threat and targeted.

Clearly if someone has a salt start in MP and they've been allowed to run away with it, the others players are too busy swanning off on their own or too shy to go the military route in which case they'd lost from the start. It's all about politics (or it can be i should say, and that's when multiplayer is balanced best).

 

[Morningcalm]

I think there should have been many more Natural Wonders in this game. Real wonders like Angel Falls, not fictitious wonders like El Dorado (which aren't Natural Wonders anyway, at best they are Wonders).

 

[Luckystrike77]

No they aren't! You're just not thinking outside the box enough. If you see someone with a natural wonder of epic proportions, you team up with EVERYONE and crush them out of existence before they get too much benefit.

If anything they can be a disadvantage in MP

Efficient teaming ups so early in the game is often easier said then done, with few roads yet, no open borders and not all finding all other civs yet. Distances can be huge, geography often disallows it. Hard to hinder that the closest neighbour of the Skildorado-finder gets wiped out rather too fast..... Skilldorado is just too strong.

 

[Gharry]

You just made me realize how cool it would be if there was a Holy Grail relic.

I always thought it would be cool if instead of the Petra giving +6 culture at archaeology it gave a free Holy Grail artifact to put in a museum.

 

[pilot00]

@ Candiman.

Really now? I seem to have lost nearly 25% of my MP games only due to bad starting locations. There is actually only that much you can do when you start in useless tiles. You virtually limp.

The same can be said about NWs. They can skyrocket you, depending on the NW OFC but faildorado is a rocket boost. I have won three games because I found it first in the first 30 rounds and the others just quit at the news. The fountain also is a warmongers dream. Free healing? Yes please.

The balancing factor seems to be that they are usually starting near or inside CS borders (which IMHO is pretty lame) but regardless of their starting location, the very fact that they bring an unbalancing factor, away from the players skills (after all, all you do is settle and work the tile) should provide an option to disable them should one wish.

The thought of been a brilliant add that encourages diplomacy or war is a bit off the mark IMHO. Even Eldorado once discovered is a minor (depending on the era) cultural boost (the only thing counting is the gp it gives). It hardly necessitates a war for a single culture tile. Its like saying that you would deviate from your path of laying out your civ because your neighbor has settled a GS and you want the academy. Investing in diplomacy,production, units and effort for a single tile.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Just imagine Madrid right next to Lake Victoria

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

@ Candiman.

Really now? I seem to have lost nearly 25% of my MP games only due to bad starting locations. There is actually only that much you can do when you start in useless tiles. You virtually limp.

The same can be said about NWs. They can skyrocket you, depending on the NW OFC but faildorado is a rocket boost. I have won three games because I found it first in the first 30 rounds and the others just quit at the news. The fountain also is a warmongers dream. Free healing? Yes please.

The balancing factor seems to be that they are usually starting near or inside CS borders (which IMHO is pretty lame) but regardless of their starting location, the very fact that they bring an unbalancing factor, away from the players skills (after all, all you do is settle and work the tile) should provide an option to disable them should one wish.

The thought of been a brilliant add that encourages diplomacy or war is a bit off the mark IMHO. Even Eldorado once discovered is a minor (depending on the era) cultural boost (the only thing counting is the gp it gives). It hardly necessitates a war for a single culture tile. Its like saying that you would deviate from your path of laying out your civ because your neighbor has settled a GS and you want the academy. Investing in diplomacy,production, units and effort for a single tile.

I said nothing about bad starts! I simply said good starts can be nullfied. If you have a bad start, you are still screwed but at least you can help screw the better guy, or play smart let them weaken each other then pounce.

I've found in all the multiplayer games i play that NW's do give you a significant advantage, however that advantage does mean you get ganked. You can be left out of trades etc, just to stop you from growing more. I had one game where a friend of mine settled FOY as spain in like 30 turns. Me and the other guy on our continent declared war on him instantly. Constantly pressuring him with units, he couldn't expand and make use of that happiness. He lost the FOY city and it got razed as soon as catapults came in for the both of us.

Clearly multiplayer can be a very different game depending on who you're playing with and clearly me and my friends play quite differently to a lot of people. I'm more than happy with the current NW's though, i think it makes for some great gameplay

Efficient teaming ups so early in the game is often easier said then done, with few roads yet, no open borders and not all finding all other civs yet. Distances can be huge, geography often disallows it. Hard to hinder that the closest neighbour of the Skildorado-finder gets wiped out rather too fast..... Skilldorado is just too strong.

Even if you can't knock them out as soon as they get it, you can keep up the pressure or team up and take them down a peg when it is feasible. One player cannot survive on his continent against two or three players teaming against him in the long run. If you get knocked out by a skilldorado player before an effective group attack can be orchestrated you've not been focussing on your army enough though, or your fellow players and yourself are not forming an effective strategy of defence until you can attack. You can always say benefit of hindsight and stuff, but if someone gets a top quality natural wonder or start, you've got to be prepared to go more military focussed early.

I'm not saying it's not difficult, but there are natural balances like that built in. If you focus on taking out the runaway, you can take out the runaway most of the time.

 

[A Rabid Dopsis]

Personally, I think all civ maps should be large featureless hexagons with equidistant starting points so that it's fair for everyone.

While we're at it, let's get rid of this unique trait nonsense for civs. Too much variability!

Why do we even need a computer, really? I can draw a map right here... etc.

EDIT: Jeez, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today...

 

[Nicasen]

Btw, Is Lake Vic considerd as a lake? As in you can build gardens or Aztec UB?

The great barrier reef is considered a mountain still so I'd imagine so would lake victoria.

 

[InsanelyApple]

Personally, I think all civ maps should be large featureless hexagons with equidistant starting points so that it's fair for everyone.

While we're at it, let's get rid of this unique trait nonsense for civs. Too much variability!

Why do we even need a computer, really? I can draw a map right here... etc.

EDIT: Jeez, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today...

If it makes you feel better, I thought it was funny.

 

[InsanelyApple]

The great barrier reef is considered a mountain still so I'd imagine so would lake victoria.

An observatory on a lake... Hmm...

 

[_hero_]

By the way, has anyone thought about the possibility of...

The Aztecs starting with Lake Victoria?

Or Spain. 12f sounds nice to me.

 

[A Rabid Dopsis]

You know, InsanelyApple, it does!

Also, random thought: Can your starting spawn spot be next to a wonder? I'm guessing no.

 

[KaneofEgypt]

For me (and this happens ALL the time) I don't generally get much out of natural wonders because I try to keep games to peaceful science/culture, and every single time that I see a wonder, it is about a tile outside of a city-state's beginning borders. What is that?! Does this happen to other people too?

EDIT: This was completely off topic. Sorry...

 

[Scarrings]

Or Spain. 12f sounds nice to me.

Or spain with lake victoria + barrier reef.