"Skip First Turn" Not So Great

[Falconius]

I just played the WWII Pacific scenario's fist couple of turns as Japan. Since the Allies are supposed to skip their first turn, I figured I had a double turn to start. With this in mind, I left a lot of units in vulnerable positions, expecting to make changes on the second part of my "double turn".

But to my surprise, the Allies moved after my first turn, sinking loaded transports and capturing artillery in the process!

I checked the editor and it lists each Ally as Players 1 thru 4, and Japan as Player 5. So I guess by skipping the Allies, it only means that Japan goes first! There is no double turn, and the only advantage Japan gets out of this is that it gets 50 turns where the Allies only get 49.

I'm going to edit this and replay when I get the time.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[shirleyrocks]

It's supposed to reflect the Japanese sneak attack/first strike.

 

[Falconius]

Originally posted by shirleyrocks
It's supposed to reflect the Japanese sneak attack/first strike.

I know what it's "supposed" to do. My point is that it doesn't work as described!

 

[Padma]

Since I don't have the retail version of Conquests, yet, I don't know how it is "described", but it sounds like it is working as designed ....

 

[Merepatra]

This is exactly how it was intended to work, Japan always gets to move first, but playing as Japan you don't get 2 turns first.

 

[Falconius]

Originally posted by Merepatra
This is exactly how it was intended to work, Japan always gets to move first, but playing as Japan you don't get 2 turns first.

So my question is, How is this different from any other scenario? I don't mean to sound flip, but such a big deal was made of this "feature" (and the attached info screen from the scenario even says it) that I'm a little stunned that this only comes down to meaning "Japan goes first."

 

[robcheng]

I'm curious...would reordering the civs so Japan is player 1 do the same thing? Is the only difference the date?

 

[Mawfia1]

Originally posted by Falconius


So my question is, How is this different from any other scenario? I don't mean to sound flip, but such a big deal was made of this "feature" (and the attached info screen from the scenario even says it) that I'm a little stunned that this only comes down to meaning "Japan goes first."

I think I understand how you feel and everything but if you continue to read it also says, "You must strike quickly and decisively! Locate, capture and secure VP locations, and destroy as many Allied units as possible...".

Now you maybe wondering what in the heck this has to do with what your argument claims but it clearly empasizes the need for quickness and action not reaction. So you should be basically be attacking on that first turn...otherwise you would defeat the purpose of striking quickly and avoiding a long drawn out war. If you skip a turn thats like what a couple of weeks...dude your making a suprise attack so you gotta be on the ball and ready to go the second you see that its your turn.

Well enough of my banter...but you really should not be waiting a couple of turns to make an attack as the lack of time is also stated in the note.

 

[Falconius]

Originally posted by robcheng
I'm curious...would reordering the civs so Japan is player 1 do the same thing? Is the only difference the date?

I tried that with the editor, but it still didn't work. So the only thing "Skip First Turn" does is take away one turn, but getting a double turn in any scenario is not possible.

 

[Falconius]

Originally posted by Mawfia1


I think I understand how you feel and everything but if you continue to read it also says, "You must strike quickly and decisively! Locate, capture and secure VP locations, and destroy as many Allied units as possible...".

Now you maybe wondering what in the heck this has to do with what your argument claims but it clearly empasizes the need for quickness and action not reaction. So you should be basically be attacking on that first turn...otherwise you would defeat the purpose of striking quickly and avoiding a long drawn out war. If you skip a turn thats like what a couple of weeks...dude your making a suprise attack so you gotta be on the ball and ready to go the second you see that its your turn.

Well enough of my banter...but you really should not be waiting a couple of turns to make an attack as the lack of time is also stated in the note.

My point is that for ALL scenarios, not just this one, "Skip First Turn" is pointless. The same result can be achieved simply by setting a particular country to move first. We had the ability to do this already, long before C3C was released. I'm a bit irritated that this "feature" was hyped so much and really turns out to be a "non-feature".

 

[Mercade]

I'd have to agree with you there Falconius. But that's what the wonderful market or marketing for. Of course, it leaves the customer displeased when product doesn't deliver on the brilliant message, but that's something to worry about later.

There is indeed only a tiny benefit. Japan gets to strike first and last, so in that sense they do get one extra move over all others, but that's not quite the same as what the text suggests.

 

[Gogf]

Well, I think that the text said that they got to strike first, and that's it. Wouldn't a double turn be pretty unfair, and unrealistic?

I have a questio though: can you set the order of the AIs with the player number (Player1 goes first, Player2 goes second, etc.)?

One more question: How do you set it so that a human player missess their first turn. This would be helpful in some scenarios. Does anyone know how to do this?

 

[Mr Black]

Originally posted by Gogf
I have a questio though: can you set the order of the AIs with the player number (Player1 goes first, Player2 goes second, etc.)?

One more question: How do you set it so that a human player missess their first turn. This would be helpful in some scenarios. Does anyone know how to do this?

1. Yes

2. Go to Scenario Properties and under "players" there is a little box, with "Skips 1st Turn" written next to it. It's on the top-right. Click on the little box, a check should appear and VOILA!!!

 

[benstandby]

DER!! The reason the Allies can't move or attack on the first turn is because when you play it multiplayer in the simultaneous turns mode, it makes the Japanese able to actually strike first.

If the scenario didn't have this, a number of unrealistic and historically unjustifiable things might happen.
1) China could rush the Japanese on the first turn,
2) America could recall thier fleet from Hawaii and save it from being destryoed,
3) the British and Dutch would be able to mount offensives in South Asia and Oceana, and/or
4) The Japanese could be put on the defensive from the start

If any of these things happen, the scenario becomes rather unbalanced and strange. Imagine the Japanese being pushed off the continent in the first 15 turns. Imagine the carrier fleet that is supposed to strike at Pearl Harbor coming under attack in the first turn by a USA player who knows where the fleet starts.

 

[Masquerouge]

MMMmmmhh excellent point Benstandby...

EDIT : oh and Padma you don't have C3C yet ? Where do you live, in Aera 51, testing the new secret plane of the USAF ?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Padma said he doesn't have the retail version of C3C ...and I know some others who also don't.


On topic:
The whole point for the 'Skip 1st turn' in WW2 wasn't mentioned so far - to ensure Japan always goes first. Now, if you play as the Japonese, you'll do that anyway, but Japan will have the first move even if you play on the Allied side. The conquest would be rather pointless if a US player could simply sail the fleet out of Pearl Harbor, right?

Only problem is that the Allies still can do some things in their 1st turn - drafting, build orders, rush builds, trades mainly.

 

[Gogf]

Mr Black: Thank you !

 

[IglooDame]

Speaking of the first turn, I think (given some complaints I've heard about the Japanese not being able to destroy all the Pearl Harbor ships) that the scenario should start with the battleships at Pearl already gone. Really, the decision is not to strike Pearl Harbor to sink those battleships - it's practically a given. The decision is whether to hang around and bombard Honolulu into the ocean while you bring up an invasion fleet and/or lure the US carriers into range.

 

[Mercade]

Good point, Benstandby.

 

[Padma]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
EDIT : oh and Padma you don't have C3C yet ? Where do you live, in Aera 51, testing the new secret plane of the USAF ?

Like Doc Tsiolkovski pointed out, I said I don't have the retail version. I was still playing with my beta test version until last night, when my wife surprised me with a late birthday present.

So I am NOW playing with the same version as the majority of the posters here.




(Oh, and we moved the good stuff out of Area 51. Too many crazy civilians snooping around. I'd tell you what/where I am testing, but then I'd have to kill you. )