Skirmisher Units

[Stalker0]

This picked up in a different thread, and really deserves its own thread.

Discussing the current balance of Skirmishers, even with the recent nerf, the unit class to me remains the strongest of all the core unit types. Basically because its got the best of both worlds, the mobility of mounted (and the ability to run away) combined with the ability to attack without taking damage (ranged ability).

Properly used, skirmishers don't take damage...they are in fact nigh invincible. So even if there damage has been reduced a bit, that's a small price to pay for a unit that can hit over and over and over again at full strength.

The best idea I have seen so far....reduce the movement from 4 to 3. I think this gives the unit their niche, but in a much tighter way. Skirmishers become very tactical, you have to really watch their use when they only have 3 movement. And it also means that rough terrain still effects them quite a bit, they can move in and do damage, but can't just escape. Further, it lets melee mounted play a counter for them, as they can run them down and kill them.

 

[Gazebo]

This picked up in a different thread, and really deserves its own thread.

Discussing the current balance of Skirmishers, even with the recent nerf, the unit class to me remains the strongest of all the core unit types. Basically because its got the best of both worlds, the mobility of mounted (and the ability to run away) combined with the ability to attack without taking damage (ranged ability).

Properly used, skirmishers don't take damage...they are in fact nigh invincible. So even if there damage has been reduced a bit, that's a small price to pay for a unit that can hit over and over and over again at full strength.

The best idea I have seen so far....reduce the movement from 4 to 3. I think this gives the unit their niche, but in a much tighter way. Skirmishers become very tactical, you have to really watch their use when they only have 3 movement. And it also means that rough terrain still effects them quite a bit, they can move in and do damage, but can't just escape. Further, it lets melee mounted play a counter for them, as they can run them down and kill them.

I'd rather see the rough terrain penalty persist past chariots.

G

 

[Stalker0]

I'd rather see the rough terrain penalty persist past chariots.

G

Excuse the pun, but that penalty is...really rough. In certain areas its crazy penalizing, and in other areas skirmishers will be as strong as they are today. Further, would the AI be able to handle it?

Honestly if we did this I would be fine removing the rough penalty from chariots and just dropping their movement like all the units in there line.

 

[CrazyG]

Thematically skirmishers being the dominant unit in jungle is really bad, and gameplay wise it makes the AI really easy to beat up in certain terrain. Both ideas would probably fix it, but I'm concerned that with only 3 movement they lack a purpose, any situation where you can move-attack-move with a skirmisher, an archer unit would also be able to shoot.

 

[Gazebo]

Thematically skirmishers being the dominant unit in jungle is really bad, and gameplay wise it makes the AI really easy to beat up in certain terrain. Both ideas would probably fix it, but I'm concerned that with only 3 movement they lack a purpose, any situation where you can move-attack-move with a skirmisher, an archer unit would also be able to shoot.

That's why I think the rough penalty is more fair.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

How about

a) Switching Comp Bow/Cross Bows with Skirmishers/Heavy Skirmishers in the tech tree
b) Reducing CS/RCS of Comp/Cross Bows
c) Applying rough terrain penalty to Skirmisher line

Is this an option?

 

[tu_79]

I'd be in favor of the rough penalty if it is modified. I really hate how it works now. If it makes my skirmisher lose all action upon entering rough terrain, the skirmisher is not able to move and shoot, just move and die, and that is the opposite of fun.

I'd like something like:
Ride: movement cost doubled in harsh terrain, halved in flat.

Then, have all mounted units begin with 2 movement points. That's worth 4 steps in flat, 1 step in rough, but the unit will still be able to fire after moving.
Mobility promotion may o may not adapt. Moving up to 6 tiles in flat land is a lot, but that kind of terrain is rare.

 

[Stalker0]

[QUOTE="CrazyG, post: 15518587, member]but I'm concerned that with only 3 movement they lack a purpose, any situation where you can move-attack-move with a skirmisher, an archer unit would also be able to shoot.[/QUOTE]

The skirmisher can still move across the map quicker, and still has the ability to attack move back 2 against something that comes into melee, also can move into a patch of rough terrain and attack. And also has a higher cs and rcs than the equivalent ranged unit. There is still a lot of difference even at 3 movement.

 

[DeAnno]

What if the rough terrain penalty reduced you to 1 move left instead of 0 moves left? Then you could at least enter rough terrain and shoot, or move through two rough hexes per turn.

 

[amateurgamer88]

How about we don't change movement of skirmishers and instead just weaken their RCS/CS? With 1 range, skirmishers only have mobility to help them be an alternative to archer unit. You hurt their mobility by adding rough terrain penalty and they are pretty useless, especially early in the game where there are lots of Forest/Jungle.

 

[Stalker0]

How about we don't change movement of skirmishers and instead just weaken their RCS/CS?

The main reason, is after a couple of nerfs, Skirmishers are still the strongest units. The reason is, in the hands of a skilled player, they are invincible. They can apply damage round after round, and take no damage in return. So even if they deal a little less damage, they are so consistent in damage dealing they still outperform other unit types.

So that is why we are talking about alternatives. And honestly if we do change movement, we may need to bump those numbers up again, I'm not sure.

 

[amateurgamer88]

The main reason, is after a couple of nerfs, Skirmishers are still the strongest units. The reason is, in the hands of a skilled player, they are invincible. They can apply damage round after round, and take no damage in return. So even if they deal a little less damage, they are so consistent in damage dealing they still outperform other unit types.

So that is why we are talking about alternatives. And honestly if we do change movement, we may need to bump those numbers up again, I'm not sure.

I agree that Skirmishers are strong but, the moment you mess with their movement, they will be extremely weak. Why am I using Horses for Skirmishers if they don't give me mobility and will have to heal regularly due to being easy to counter? If this is the case, then archer units are better with their longer range and better chance of avoiding of getting attacked by enemy units. Why don't we just give Skirmishers a penalty against Land units? Consistent in low damage should make them more annoying than anything while keeping them somewhat useful. Once they upgrade to Heavy Skirmishers, they will regain their former strength.

 

[vyyt]

I vote for
- reducing their RCS and CS
- AND giving them a reworked rough terrain penalty (= letting them enter the rough terrain and shoot or multiplying the normal MP consumption by 1.5 or whatever is easier to code)

I strongly oppose removing their movent from 4 to 3. They would become useless.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree that Skirmishers are strong but, the moment you mess with their movement, they will be extremely weak.

I will quote myself from a post above: "The skirmisher can still move across the map quicker, and still has the ability to attack move back 2 against something that comes into melee, also can move into a patch of rough terrain and attack. And also has a higher cs and rcs than the equivalent ranged unit. There is still a lot of difference even at 3 movement."

Even with 3 movement, and attack after move, you can do a lot with this unit. Further, its still has a higher RCS than the equivalent ranged unit, so it still delivers pain.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I will quote myself from a post above: "The skirmisher can still move across the map quicker, and still has the ability to attack move back 2 against something that comes into melee, also can move into a patch of rough terrain and attack. And also has a higher cs and rcs than the equivalent ranged unit. There is still a lot of difference even at 3 movement."

Even with 3 movement, and attack after move, you can do a lot with this unit. Further, its still has a higher RCS than the equivalent ranged unit, so it still delivers pain.

Let's have a simple scenario where we have a Skirmisher facing off against a Spearman on the open terrain where you'd think the Skirmisher has the advantage. You move the Skirmisher in, take a shot and back away one tile due to 3 movements total. Then, that Spearman attacks and takes away most of your Skirmisher's health. What do you do? Withdraw it and wait a couple of turns to heal up. Repeat this a couple of time and do you see how it's such a pain to use? Rough terrain is worse as you can't even move after attacking. That pain won't be felt by your enemies because your enemies can hit it back even harder for a single ranged attack you inflict. Please tell me what things this 3 movement Skirmisher can do a lot of that won't result in it taking a lot of damage after the first engagement.

 

[Stalker0]

Let's have a simple scenario where we have a Skirmisher facing off against a Spearman on the open terrain where you'd think the Skirmisher has the advantage. You move the Skirmisher in, take a shot and back away one tile due to 3 movements total. Then, that Spearman attacks and takes away most of your Skirmisher's health. What do you do? Withdraw it and wait a couple of turns to heal up. Repeat this a couple of time and do you see how it's such a pain to use? Rough terrain is worse as you can't even move after attacking. That pain won't be felt by your enemies because your enemies can hit it back even harder for a single ranged attack you inflict. Please tell me what things this 3 movement Skirmisher can do a lot of that won't result in it taking a lot of damage after the first engagement.

In that scenario the skirmisher would attack the spearman and then retreat 2. So the skirmisher was damaged but attacked the unit twice, doing a lot of damage.

That to me is working as intended. The skirmisher is perfectly safe and did a lot of damage, but is not invincible, it can’t just rush in all the time and do damage for free.

 

[Bromar1]

How about

a) Switching Comp Bow/Cross Bows with Skirmishers/Heavy Skirmishers in the tech tree
b) Reducing CS/RCS of Comp/Cross Bows
c) Applying rough terrain penalty to Skirmisher line

Is this an option?

I think a combination of tech switches and CS adjustment is plenty. The rough terrain penalty is really polarizing and can leave them just as OP in certain starts while being terrible in others.

I really think it makes sense to have comp bowman unlock before skirmishers.

So right now, skirmishers don't really help against horsemen while basically extending the horseman domination window.
Bringing comp bowmen earlier switches this by soft countering horsemen. compbowman shooting from forested hill is a big obstacle for horsemen without skirmisher support

 

[DarkZero]

Actually i think skirmishers are annoying but fair, and there is no need to nerf them, a tech switch is all that is needed.

 

[Noob Fanboy]

I made this argument before:

Composite bowmens can fight pretty well Horsemen and Spearmens. Changing the tech position of skirmishers from engineering to mathematics is going to solve nothing. You can just go directly for Oracle or Parthenon -> Education and grab some composite bowmens for defense just like people do with skirmishers.

Unless we lower the melee cs of composite bowmens, changing the tech position isn't going to solve something. Unless flanked, composite bowmens are normally stronger than horsemens and spearmens in 1 vs 1.

 

[amateurgamer88]

In that scenario the skirmisher would attack the spearman and then retreat 2. So the skirmisher was damaged but attacked the unit twice, doing a lot of damage.

That to me is working as intended. The skirmisher is perfectly safe and did a lot of damage, but is not invincible, it can’t just rush in all the time and do damage for free.

In that scenario, the Skirmisher will be out of commission until it heals up. On higher difficulties or against larger armies, doing a lot of damage on one unit, assuming the second attack does much after the damage the Spearman inflicts, isn't very worthwhile. An Archer unit can contribute a lot more in more situations than this and doesn't require any strategic resources. How does giving 1 extra movement compared to an Archer unit while stuck with 1 range justify this unit requiring horses? Do we need some meatshields in front of this unit as well now and not give them mobility at all? Of course, it's obvious that your a lot of damage isn't different from my a lot of damage.