Late Game War Tedium Discussion

[ma_kuh]

Yes, so I think the problem is that the human's actions are possible, and the solution is not that the AI should mindlessly attack for three waves until it compromises its own position.

I think the ideas in this thread would work well to get to that point:

1. Reduce the amount of per-turn healing available to units. If they rotate out and take twice as long to heal, then you need twice as many units to fill that slot, which has a cost, and puts you more in a mindset of trying to "break out" rather than slowly die.
2. Add a way to prevent healing on units under bombardment via a plague. A single unit with massive defensive CS holding the line becomes less tenable if they have to move out eventually, regardless of how little damage they take in a single turn.
3. Indirect fire on an early-mid siege unit gives field siege a good niche for busting Forts/Citadels, and a safe unit to use even with "proper" defensive terrain. You will have to commit horses or something to snipe their siege, which then drives action around defending/counter attacking, because the inevitability lies with the aggressor, not the defender.

I think you could also do something with requiring the Fortified state to get the most out of Fort and Citadel defenses, such that newly-rotated units don't have the same defensive shell that ones who have been sitting there awhile would have.

 

[azum4roll]

You wouldn't just rush units into the grinder, so why should the AI?

They don't know it's a grinder to begin with. They have no memory of what happened last turn.

 

[CppMaster]

They don't know it's a grinder to begin with. They have no memory of what happened last turn.

Yet they do see units, terrain and improvements. It should be sufficient.

 

[Father Antoniy]

I guess that one of the first steps to resolve the problem is to reduce the overall supply

 

[CivYam]

What about the Civ6 solution of letting you combine units into more powerful versions? That always seemed to me to be an elegant solution, giving you incentive to lower your total amount of units while also increasing your risk (of losing powerful units).

Seems like it would address the tedium issues, would allow for lower supply limits, etc.

 

[Anarcomu]

What about the Civ6 solution of letting you combine units into more powerful versions? That always seemed to me to be an elegant solution, giving you incentive to lower your total amount of units while also increasing your risk (of losing powerful units).

Seems like it would address the tedium issues, would allow for lower supply limits, etc.

I was to propose something like this, but it seems that it is unlikely to be feasible with the limitation of the Civ V engine, in a clean manner.

 

[Stalker0]

I was to propose something like this, but it seems that it is unlikely to be feasible with the limitation of the Civ V engine, in a clean manner.

You could do it through promotions I might imagine. The original unit disappears and the other unit gets a promotion to boost its stats. Wouldn’t impact the art which would be a concern for some people.

Now triggering the unit kill/unit promotion, not sure on that one

 

[Stalker0]

You could do it through promotions I might imagine. The original unit disappears and the other unit gets a promotion to boost its stats. Wouldn’t impact the art which would be a concern for some people.

Now triggering the unit kill/unit promotion, not sure on that one

Thought would that actually reduce tedium? You have to build a lot units and combine them all together, that’s a lot of clicks right there

 

[Anarcomu]

Thought would that actually reduce tedium? You have to build a lot units and combine them all together, that’s a lot of clicks right there

Well, you do one click to eat another unit, and from now on, you only do one action (move, attack etc) instead of two any time you move your new unit. It's even instead of three if you can combine twice like in Civ 6.

 

[Anarcomu]

Another possibility is to do a huge balance in the mid-late game where units value compared to cities in increased, and upkeep/cost is changed accordingly.

 

[Diomedes_]

If I understand you correctly, then I definitely agree and have been pushing for that idea for a while. If we want to reduce the number of actions per turn in the late game, then it seems like the best option is to reduce the number of things that need to act. We can't do armies, so making units stronger but less numerous is the best way to do it. Theoretically, fewer units would also just speed up combat in general as lines would be shallower and thus easier to bust through, which I think is a desirable side effect. I suppose it would even making healing a bit less strong in open terrain as pulling units back would have a greater effect on your front-line strength, as you would have fewer units to fill the gap left by the now-healing unit.

I haven't played non-VP Civ 5 in a very long time. What are army sizes like there? Are they bigger/smaller than in VP?

Edit: Okay yeah I just watched a few clips of BNW Deity and MP games, and I was reminded of just how different VP is. In both the AI and MP games, every player had like maybe 30 units max in Info era. That's crazy! Granted like every player was going like 4 city tradition (as it is OP in BNW) and they were playing on small maps, which certainly changes things, but even for a 4-city tradition empire in VP you'd likely have twice as many units at that point in the game. Nonetheless, watching someone capture a capital with an army that was just 4 Infantry and a few bombers was certainly surreal though.

 

[bryanw1995]

I notice AI's declare on me when I'm winning even if they have a smaller army (by "Military Power" score). This makes no sense irl and contributes to late-game war.

There's a setting in the new game menu to disable that.

 

[CivYam]

You could do it through promotions I might imagine. The original unit disappears and the other unit gets a promotion to boost its stats.

Yes, I believe in Civ6 a "Corps" is a flat +10 strength, and an "Army" is another +7 for a total of up to +17 strength. Or to quote the Civ6 wiki:

• Corps or Fleet, created by combining two units of a kind. Requires the Nationalism civic.
  • The combined unit receives a +10 bonus to Combat Strength and Ranged Strength, and a +7 bonus to Anti-Air Strength above a single unit of the same type. Other statistics, such as Movement, Range, and aircraft slots, remain unchanged.
  • The combined unit's Gold maintenance cost is three-fourths as much as that of two separate units.
  • The combined unit's per-turn strategic resource cost (Coal, Oil, Aluminum, or Uranium) is the same as that of a single unit.
• Army or Armada, created by combining three units of a kind. Requires the Mobilization civic.
  • The combined unit receives a +17 bonus to Combat Strength and Ranged Strength above a single unit of the same type. However, the Anti-Air Strength bonus is still only +7.
  • The combined unit's Gold maintenance cost is two-thirds as much as that of three separate units.
  • The combined unit's per-turn strategic resource cost (Coal, Oil, Aluminum, or Uranium) is the same as that of a single unit.

In any case, I'm not sure we necessarily need all of those details, it's just some food for thought. The main thing is that it would give a positive incentive to reduce the number of units, and would feel better than negative incentives such as increasing supply costs or lowering total supply. We might want to do those too, but having something positive would feel good.

 

[Anarcomu]

The strength mechanic from Civ 6 is different than the one from Civ 5. In Civ 6, flat strength difference is what is taken into consideration to define who is winning by what margin, meaning there is no difference between :
10 vs 20 or
75 vs 85

Where is Civ 5, it is relative (multiplicative) strength which is taken into consideration.
So, the best implementation would be like the old viking promotion, aka a multiplicative strength bonus, but everywhere.

 

[CivYam]

Civ 5, it is relative (multiplicative) strength

Is this post still correct in explaining the damage calculation? So to simplify, it's:

Civ6: a-b

versus

Civ5: a/b

?

 

[Anarcomu]

Yes

EDIT : I don't know how precisely damages are calculated, so the math in the post could be right or wrong, I dunno. But the general idea is still valid.

 

[Stalker0]

Is this post still correct in explaining the damage calculation? So to simplify, it's:

Civ6: a-b

versus

Civ5: a/b

?

yes you got it.

So in Civ 5, damage is based on A/B (aka the ratio). In Civ 6 its A - B (aka the difference).

This is why in Civ 6 the bonus are all "+X", and in Civ 5 its "+X%".


For gearheads that want to know, here is the Civ 6 damage formula:
[IMG alt="{\displaystyle Damage(HP)=30*e^{0.04*StrengthDifference}*randomBetween(80\%,120\%)}"]https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/m...ff78dab884deddda8bdcd6e4d11973e5375947f[/IMG]

StrengthDifference = A - B.

 

[Rick Drayson]

I higher difficulties i cannot stand to play late game wars
Too many units in cramped terrain = unbelievable tedium
The fix is as always, limited unit stacking.
Unit stacking = much quicker war resolutions.

 

[Bryan317]

I higher difficulties i cannot stand to play late game wars
Too many units in cramped terrain = unbelievable tedium
The fix is as always, limited unit stacking.
Unit stacking = much quicker war resolutions.

I hear you. But a Huge map in the Information Age is the only way you can get an expert level war experience. But no, its not going to be quick. A huge map on marathon can take a month or more depending on free time. And yes, sometime I need to take a break. Walk away and come back. And I need to accept that this is a long process. There won't be much instant gratification for my achievements. And a single turn (maybe 2) might be all can play on a given night.

 

[CppMaster]

I hear you. But a Huge map in the Information Age is the only way you can get an expert level war experience. But no, its not going to be quick. A huge map on marathon can take a month or more depending on free time. And yes, sometime I need to take a break. Walk away and come back. And I need to accept that this is a long process. There won't be much instant gratification for my achievements. And a single turn (maybe 2) might be all can play on a given night.

It almost seems kinda like work