[GS] Skirmishers worth it?

[NegativeZero]

I've wanted a classical/medieval recon unit since the first looks from R&F in order to make better use their promotion tree.

In Civ 6's upcoming expansion (Gathering Storm), the medieval era looks to host a recon upgrade to skirmisher. The stats are pull from here but they could change before release.

Stats

Skirmisher: 3 movement, 20 melee/ 30 ranged str., 1 range, 120 production, 3 gold maint., and unlocks at Machinery.

Based upon what I've seen, their base stats are very similar to archers with less range which is bad for a medieval era unit that doesn't upgrade till the industrial era. I feel three gold per turn (maint.) is asking a bit too much for essentially a gambit unit seeking to leverage the recon promotion path.

The 120 production is the lowest of all medieval units, but that is still substantially higher than classical swordsmen (90 prod.) and horsemen (80 prod.) which I think are straight up better. Yes skirmishers don't require strategic resources (and those do), but they don't even compare well to previous era units.

Machinery is also an odd choice for skirmishers as civs teching there would already unlocked better unit paths (H. Cav and Swords), want Crossbows, or just be weird and want early Printing.

Promotions

The Tier 2 Guerrilla (can move after attacking) and Tier 3 Ambush (+20 combat str. in all situations) promotions seem to be the skirmisher's only saving grace which could make them relevant in combat.

These promotions would allow Skirmishers to Shoot&Move with a (potentially) larger combat str. than Crossbows, but nearly any other unit with 3 promotions can be a monster in combat.

The only way I see players pulling off skirmisher is with a rush that would involve producing scouts just before Machinery for 1 turn production each, upgrade (as needed) w/ professional army (50% discount), and funneling them toward the target. With survey's double exp, they could get Guerrilla in four-five combats and Ambush in two-three more.

I could see Poundmaker (Okihtcitaw & +1 free Promotion) and Robert the Bruce (Skirmishers -> Highlanders) considering that option, but I feel many other civs would just use Archers/L.Cav/Knights as normal.

Summary

Skirmishers feel like a gamble that few civs would consider over other unit progression paths. They don't benefit from a production policy, come at an odd tech, start below the power curve, and rely on Civ specific abilities and flanking for additional combat strength.

Putting all that aside, I am still going to try them when GS releases but I already worry about their medieval viability outside having a sparse few.

I'm posting this now in hope that they could receive some love before GS's release to be somewhat competitive with the rest of the field. If your wondering, I did post something similar on reddit (here) to gauge the community's thoughts on the matter.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Skirmishers aren't meant to be used for warfare, they are meant to be used for Exploring new lands, which is better because even at an Archer level chances are they'd be more beneficial than Scouts who are likely to die in one shot.

Also remember that stats aren't final and things may be nerfed/buffed before GS releases.

 

[_hero_]

They are definitely situational, but I do think a ranged unit with good mobility can certainly have some fringe benefits that can't easily be captured by looking at stats.

They'll be able to maneuver themselves into hill or forest hexes and attack in the same turn unlike other ranged units under normal circumstances. They'll also be good at chasing down and picking off damaged units that try to escape.

Ultimately though, they make it so that if you want to play a more exploration heavy early game, you can do so and still be fine in the midgame militarily.

 

[acluewithout]

I use scouts in combat a lot for ZOC, flanking, and drawing fire. I am very much looking forward to having a Medieval unit I can upgrade them too.

 

[bbbt]

I doubt they will be game changing, but they seem like they'll be a fun unit - i.e. 'Tier 2 Guerrilla (can move after attacking)', in the right terrain (say forest) they can move in, attack (taking no damage as they are ranged), and move away, and potentially can't be caught (by a melee unit who would use it's entire move just moving into the forest/hill square).

I usually have a couple of tier 1 scouts just from exploring/barb escaping.

The one thing I'd ideally add to the entire line - is the ability to upgrade in neutral territory as well as friendly. So your scout on the other side of the world can upgrade to a skirmisher without having to come home mid exploration. Though with Allies/CS Suzerains there may be closer territory to upgrade in.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

A nerf to recon units. Scouts are best units for garrison (garrison provides loyalty and amenity), but if you have Skirmisher you can no longer build scouts, therefore you won't have those lovely low-cost garrisons.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

A nerf to recon units. Scouts are best units for garrison (garrison provides loyalty and amenity), but if you have Skirmisher you can no longer build scouts, therefore you won't have those lovely low-cost garrisons.

Definitely a positive in my book, I don't like that sort of gamey tactic but obviously it's the most sensible solution at the moment. I don't think recon units should count as a garrison at all!

Skirmishers look fun but agree they may be situational at best.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

A nerf to recon units. Scouts are best units for garrison (garrison provides loyalty and amenity), but if you have Skirmisher you can no longer build scouts, therefore you won't have those lovely low-cost garrisons.

It's interesting how you consider that the obvious use of recon units is to stay as garrison in cities. Also, garrisons don't provide loyalty or amenity unless you invest a policy card to have them do and some players have other uses for their policy cards and/or don't play governments with plenty of red cards.

I think the Skirmisher will be interesting for players who try to use recon units for their intended purpose. They will hold their ground against medieval barbs when used for scouting (you won't have to use horsemen to scout past the early game) or could be used to harass the enemy depending how you promote them but they definitely won't dominate the battlefield, nor are they meant to. They are an indirect buff to the Cree as their UU was in an awkward position before.

 

[mitsho]

The recon class for sure needs the ability to upgrade outside your own borders, that‘s the only way to let scouts explore even further. And I guess that‘s also the main idea behind the introduction of skirmishers. Sure, you can also use them to get flanking bonuses and if promoted guerilla tactics, but their main goal would still be recon, no?

 

[Lord Yanaek]

The recon class for sure needs the ability to upgrade outside your own borders

Now that would be a great idea. I doubt they will consider it thought

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

The recon class for sure needs the ability to upgrade outside your own borders, that‘s the only way to let scouts explore even further. And I guess that‘s also the main idea behind the introduction of skirmishers. Sure, you can also use them to get flanking bonuses and if promoted guerilla tactics, but their main goal would still be recon, no?

Or at least upgrading should be possible within the borders of civs with who you have open borders. I can understand that upgrading would cost more outside your own borders if it would be possible.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The role of recons is Scout survival and anti-barb potential, which is great in my book.

 

[AriochIV]

I don't think you'll be building many Skirmishers. I think they're just something to upgrade your Scouts to, to try to help them survive until Rifling.

Cavalry units, once available, are better at reconnaissance than the recon units, unless you're dealing with a lot of rough terrain... but then that's historically accurate.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Another use of Skirmisher is that it makes Medival barb camps much stronger. Previously killing the barb scout is very easy using Medival units, but killing a Skirmisher will not be that easy and then the barb camp will start produce dozens of barbs.

 

[NegativeZero]

I think the Skirmisher will be interesting for players who try to use recon units for their intended purpose. They will hold their ground against medieval barbs when used for scouting (you won't have to use horsemen to scout past the early game) or could be used to harass the enemy depending how you promote them but they definitely won't dominate the battlefield, nor are they meant to. They are an indirect buff to the Cree as their UU was in an awkward position before.

Perhaps I was a bit rash to expect a combat-ready unit from the recon line which focuses exploration, fog busting, flaking/terrain, and/or counter barbarian as their intended niche. However, I still maintain that 3 gold per turn is too much for what your getting even with certain policy cards.

The one thing I'd ideally add to the entire line - is the ability to upgrade in neutral territory as well as friendly. So your scout on the other side of the world can upgrade to a skirmisher without having to come home mid exploration. Though with Allies/CS Suzerains there may be closer territory to upgrade in.

I'd love to see that worked into the game to incentivize early exploration with scout units. As of now, players whom build scouts don't ever expect them back.

Perhaps the Spec Ops' Priority Target (directly attack supportive units in formation with military units) could be moved to skirmisher for counter play options in earlier eras?Sabotage always existed so it should work in context and Spec Ops (usually) come too late to matter as the winner has long since been decided.

A nerf to recon units. Scouts are best units for garrison (garrison provides loyalty and amenity), but if you have Skirmisher you can no longer build scouts, therefore you won't have those lovely low-cost garrisons.

They upgrade late enough that you'll have ample opportunity to generate more than necessary for garrisons. I feel using them that way is a bit cheesy, but whatever works...

Frankly, I think barb scouts needed the skirmisher upgrade to stand a chance at doing their job vs. Players....

 

[TomKQT]

3 gpt maintenance seems a bit much to me, but that may change, the game is still not done. But I don't agree with the rest of the complains. First, you'll probably use skirmishers to upgrade scouts, not directly build them. And second, you're comparing uncomparable - this is a unit for exploration and occasional quick hit & run, of course a swordsman will be better for a straight battle.

 

[Disgustipated]

A nerf to recon units. Scouts are best units for garrison (garrison provides loyalty and amenity), but if you have Skirmisher you can no longer build scouts, therefore you won't have those lovely low-cost garrisons.

Glad to see I'm not the only one to do this. I sometimes rush buy scouts to garrison cities in dire need of loyalty from a unit. That way my military isn't tied up and getting smaller as a result.

Another use of Skirmisher is that it makes Medival barb camps much stronger.

I sometimes delay upgrading my units, but that may not be an option with GS.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Another use of Skirmisher is that it makes Medival barb camps much stronger. Previously killing the barb scout is very easy using Medival units, but killing a Skirmisher will not be that easy and then the barb camp will start produce dozens of barbs.

Now, i didn't actually consider that face of the coin but if barbs also get the upgrade it will definitely change how we can deal with camps.

 

[thecrazyscot]

The recon class for sure needs the ability to upgrade outside your own borders, that‘s the only way to let scouts explore even further. And I guess that‘s also the main idea behind the introduction of skirmishers. Sure, you can also use them to get flanking bonuses and if promoted guerilla tactics, but their main goal would still be recon, no?

I think it makes sense that you need to be in friendly territory to upgrade (otherwise are the Scouts just pulling improved equipment out of their butts?). Even if you have Scouts on the other side of the globe, though, you can upgrade them in a vassal city-state. I think that works as intended. Sending a unit on a journey of that length should have risks, and the ability to suzerain city-states makes it a manageable one if preserving the unit is that important to you.

 

[mitsho]

My argument isn't about realism, but about gameplay comfort. I see your points, but I don't really care how they update either. I just want them to do it so that I don't have to painstakingly reroute them at the exact time I get the tech to a nearby friendly territory. That is busywork and not "an interesting decision", at least for me. But it isn't a big deal either...