Slaves overpowered?

[volkmar]

Greetings all,

I just finished a game playing the Sidar on Noble difficulty setting by building the tower of mastery.

This was my first time I tried the magical victory so imagine my surprise when all the world declared war on me when construction started, it was stated to last for 50+ turns. Luckly I had a whole continent for myself, full research and a formidable defense force that easily repelled the first 2 invasion attempts, then I noticed I could buy slaves cause I researched "Deception" even if I did not have the "Slavery" civic.

ALL my units could buy a slave. What is worse is the NEW slaves could buy a slave too. Each slave cost 30 gold and can be killed for 15 hammers. That is waaaaaaaay cheaper than what it cost to buy hammer trough civics (like Arete).

I had 13k gold. Voilat! 6k gold and several dozens slaves later and tower is done. took 1 turn instead of 50+.

I find this to be too overpowered. Either the slaves cannot buy a new slave, make them cost more or something like that.
Oh did I mention that you can even buy a slave with a slave and still sacrifice him for the 15 hammers?

Comments?

 

[Zechnophobe]

It's not that big of a deal to be honest. At the point which you start the Altar or Tower, it's pretty much a forgone conclusion you'll finish it and win, slavery just makes it go a bit faster. Keep in mind you can just go 'full econ' for a while, and then buy the tower that way, still not too expensive.

Consider also your statement that you are A) Playing only on Noble and B) had a whole continent to yourself. It is very likely you could have won via a lot of different routes with such an advantage, and this was, at that moment, the fastest. If you had the Guild of nine, you could have turned that 13k gold into about 100 Mercenaries, instead of spending the time on researching the techs needed for the Tower, and probably conquered the world.

 

[volkmar]

well, to build the tower would have taken me 22k gold via the hurry production.

And true, I prolly would have win, or then maybe not. the OTHER continent was populated by the Golden Dragon child-King that had ALL other civs as its vassals, not to speak of the golden dragon himself. I kinda expected to see him flying over the ocean but instead he sent some lousy centaurs and a fleet of ships.

Anyhow, I would have prolly win all the same, but it was kinda a surprise that Deception basically nullify any of the "can spend gold to hurry production" civics

 

[kenneth]

lol use 6k gold to rush a wonder... there are far better ways to rush a wonder, like using a great engineer. Try playing at higher difficulties like immortal. Most of the time, you will not be gaining gold.

 

[xalien]

At marathon speed you get 30 hammers for the same 30 gold. Add to the fact that town gives 4-5 commerce vs 2-3 hammers from the mine and it does get a "little" too strong IMHO. It's even worse for financial civs and completely ridiculous for elves.

 

[Zechnophobe]

well, to build the tower would have taken me 22k gold via the hurry production.

What was your GNP though? If you were maxed gold per turn, I bet you were getting like 1k per turn or some such. If you already had 13k, that's only 9 turns. If you only made 500 gold per turn, it's 18 turns.

While that isn't nearly as awesome as 'right away' it isn't exactly like the other civ's were going to conquer you in 18 turns!

And true, I prolly would have win, or then maybe not. the OTHER continent was populated by the Golden Dragon child-King that had ALL other civs as its vassals, not to speak of the golden dragon himself. I kinda expected to see him flying over the ocean but instead he sent some lousy centaurs and a fleet of ships.

Anyhow, I would have prolly win all the same, but it was kinda a surprise that Deception basically nullify any of the "can spend gold to hurry production" civics

Yeah, that is rather true. By the way, it isn't specifically Deception, but rather that you were a member of the undercouncil, and that they had adopted the slave trade.

The only thing I'd really like to see changed here, would be if slaves were like Mercs, in that they can't be used to buy other slaves until the turn after their purchase. Make it a bit less swinggy, without much else.

I think that would require that the 'buy slave' ability be labelled as a spell, but that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[hbar]

lol use 6k gold to rush a wonder... there are far better ways to rush a wonder, like using a great engineer. Try playing at higher difficulties like immortal. Most of the time, you will not be gaining gold.

Actually, with the Tower of Mastery, a great engineer hardly dents the build time. I think a GE gives ~850 on normal speed, the ToM costs ~3000. So even if you have one or two GEs to burn, you'll still need slaves if you're not a big fan of pushing the big red "Next Turn" button.

I tried building the ToM with one GE and Warrior of Kilmorph spamming, it still took over 40 turns.

 

[Niveras]

lol use 6k gold to rush a wonder... there are far better ways to rush a wonder, like using a great engineer. Try playing at higher difficulties like immortal. Most of the time, you will not be gaining gold.

What else is he going to use the gold for? And as mention, engineers are not guaranteed completion of a building, they just add a lot of hammers.

 

[Darksaber1]

Engineers add 500 +20 per pop point in that city.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Noble difficulty

a whole continent for myself

Hmmmmm....

No, you're right, the slaves were the overpowered bit, not your situation. Silly me, how could I think otherwise?

 

[abculatter2]

Hmmmmm....

No, you're right, the slaves were the overpowered bit, not your situation. Silly me, how could I think otherwise?

oh you silly goose.
I agree, the slaves weren't the ones overpowered...

 

[rocklikeafool]

oh you silly goose.
I agree, the slaves weren't the ones overpowered...

And same here. After all, it weren't the slaves fault you had so much damn gold and no enemies on your continent.

 

[Blackmantle]

+ you played Sidar. As if Sidar whould need slaves to finish ToM / Altar...
(The one Civ with easiely several hundred gold of surplus while still beeing able to set the slider to 100% sience or still a more than decent research at slider 0%. Greath specialsts ftw.)
With them you can easiely chose if you want to build in the usual way in a small 2-digit number of turns, goldrush or slaverush.

On the other hand with so many specialists + overcouncil you could have gone straight to cultural victory instead. (early liberty really makes a difference in that setup.)
So victory whould have been just as possible with honor.

I whould say on the contrary undercouncil-slavery is underpowered now regarding its place in the game (once the most important feature of the undercouncil, now only for rounding up things allready won or for emergencies) and whould be more appropriate at 40 Gold / 20 Hammers (and if possible without slaves beeing able to hire slaves.) + a slave selling price of 20 Gold instead of 5 imo.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Very true. So, if anythin, the Sidar are overpowered. However, I wouldn't change em a bit.

 

[Blackmantle]

Depends on speed / difficulty / settings and luck so not all that consistent (and my favorite civ so im a bit biased regarding them...). Other players are not all that fond of them for some sensible reasons / playstyle differences.

But in the situation above the barbs on said continent alone whould have provided more then enough greath specialists to freely chose the type of victory. With odd luck the OP might have played with raging barbs on... (even without its enough for an easy cruise.)

 

[Zechnophobe]

Depends on speed / difficulty / settings and luck so not all that consistent (and my favorite civ so im a bit biased regarding them...). Other players are not all that fond of them for some sensible reasons / playstyle differences.

But in the situation above the barbs on said continent alone whould have provided more then enough greath specialists to freely chose the type of victory. With odd luck the OP might have played with raging barbs on... (even without its enough for an easy cruise.)

Sidar really only shine when you've got barbs to mop up. Otherwise, they are a fairly mediocre civ. The isolated island is kind of their best possible start. Only better would be one with Jonas and Charadon .

 

[rocklikeafool]

I disagree. The Sidar are not a wartime civ, for the most part. But they are a builder's paradise, so to speak. But keep in mind that there had to a few civs that builders love. Otherwise, FfH wouldn't appeal to builders at all. And therefore would lose part of its fanbase.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Correct, they are a builder civ, and they perform best when they have many barbarians or early enemies to get many units above level 6, when they can be waned. This is basic Sidar strategy.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Exactly! The other strategy I've found that works well is usin CoE and Stealth. Stab in the back works well for civs that don't usually have huge, powerful armies. But usin the Mask ability of the recon units is a great way to capture cities.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Waning is a very situational, usually nonexistent bonus. The real strength of the Sidar is their normal specialists.

Best start for them is anything with a whole lot of food resources and/or flood plains. I mean, all civs want that, but the Sidar benefit even more than the other civs.