Slaves overpowered?

[volkmar]

All right, I did not know that was from the Undercouncil and Slavery as this was my first time joining the undercouncil (I did it just because the overcouncil, dominated by said Dragon-boy king, had outlawed all the bad mana).

Makes things a bit harder to get those slaves then.
Btw, I was playing on epic and the tower took 6000 hammers.

And yes, I was gaining money by the truckload, that was not the issue, the issue was how cheap slaves are in comparison to the normal "hurry production" option (about 1/4 of the price) and the fact you can buy tons of them in a single turn as they can buy themselves their own slave (a sub-slave? ).

Thank you for all the comments anyhow, I believe disabling the "slave buy slave" function would do the trick as if they are an Undercouncil only feature, then they should be more useful than if just granted by Deception.

Oh, BTW, about the towers, do you NEED to have all the mana all the time or you can like, get the elemental nodes, build the elemental tower, then kill them, reset them trough Dispel Magic and build the, say, Alteration nodes and build that tower?

 

[Vitek]

Yeah, you can change them when the tower is done. Doesn't make sense in my opinion, but otherwise you won't be able to reach tower victory without conquest.

 

[hbar]

... the issue was how cheap slaves are in comparison to the normal "hurry production" option (about 1/4 of the price) and the fact you can buy tons of them in a single turn as they can buy themselves their own slave (a sub-slave? )...

That actually does make sense. In real life, if you want to get something (say, a pyramid) built, it would probably cost about 4x as much by paying honest workers living wages to build it. Slaves, on the other hand, don't need wages, and barely need food The biggest cost would be, um, disposal of the dead ones.

Maybe slaves should have a 5% chance of causing the graveyard event when they are popped? (This could be fun as the Sheaim...) I also think they should have a chance to revolt & turn barb - give them 3 and enraged, and a chance to convert nearby slaves. And obviously, slaves buying slaves is broken.

EDIT - typos

 

[Niveras]

And yes, I was gaining money by the truckload, that was not the issue, the issue was how cheap slaves are in comparison to the normal "hurry production" option (about 1/4 of the price) and the fact you can buy tons of them in a single turn as they can buy themselves their own slave (a sub-slave? ).

It should be noted that the hammer return changes based on game length, but the price does not. On quick, you still pay 30 but the slaves only return 6 hammers, which I think higher than the cost of gold rushing. On normal, I believe it returns 10, which is equal to the cost of gold rushing.

 

[Immaculate]

Could you outline this further Niveras?
What is the base gold to hammer cost from just base rushing?
What is it for slave-rushing?
at all speeds?

Thanks- this would be useful info to have.


Based on what you wrote, slaves are not useful on quick but are probably useful on epic and marathon. Is that correct?

I.

 

[Tarquelne]

Could you outline this further Niveras?

I second that. I've always wanted to see a good comparison but, while I'm not too lazy to ask for one, I'm too lazy to do it myself.

Last time I checked out Slavery I was playing Marathon and thought it was quite unbalanced - too good. (Several version ago, though>)

 

[rocklikeafool]

That's on Marathon. Try on normal or Epic. It's fine then.

 

[Blackmantle]

That comparison is not utterly appropriate. The value of gold / beakers / hammers is higher at quick than at normal / epic marathon overall.

So its roughly comparable depending on speed even if gross hammer-value is different while the cost in gold is the same.

Still not directly proportional for some reasons (the same ones which make all speeds not completely comparable) but not completely unresonable.

Only because some other things are double-scaled / not appropriately scaled (like rushing with gold / pop) it really loses a bit of its appeal. (Same is true to a certain extent in regards to usefulness of farms vs. cottages, different unit-tiers and the likes but that whould lead to far.)

 

[rocklikeafool]

Of course it isn't directly proportional. I thought that was unnerstood.

 

[Niveras]

Could you outline this further Niveras?
What is the base gold to hammer cost from just base rushing?
What is it for slave-rushing?
at all speeds?

Thanks- this would be useful info to have.


Based on what you wrote, slaves are not useful on quick but are probably useful on epic and marathon. Is that correct?

I.

Yes. The cost of gold rushing actually varies a little bit, based on whether you have actually started production on the building. In any6 case, here are the relative costs based on game speeds:

Quick:
Initial rush: 4.5 gold per hammer
Initial -1: 3 gph
Slave: 5 gph

Normal:
Initial rush: 4.5
Initial -1: 3
Slave: 3

Epic
Initial rush: 9
Initial -1: 6
Slave: 2

Marathon
Initial rush: 9
Initial -1: 6
Slave: 1

Initial rush indicates you just started building the object, but do not have any hammers contributed to it. For instance, you just now set your build queue to start it. Initial -1 means you have more than 0 hammers attributed to the objects. The slave value should be pretty obvious.

Incidentally, a slave's production boost counts as hammers attributed to the building. So, you can start a building, buy and use a slave, then rush-buy the building at the 'discount' cost, versus what you'd have to pay if you had no production started on the building. Only really useful on normal, where using one slave saves you the extra cost, and also the time of buying tons of slaves to build the building. Might also apply on quick, if the building requires enough hammers to offset the cost of a slave.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ rocklikeafool: my response was not aimed at your post but mainly about the differing value of slave-trade (so rather aimed at the running discussion) which is not fully down to it becoming weaker by game speed as much as other options becoming stronger.


Also to note: Slave-rushing can just help with buildings unlike pop-rushing or gold-rushing works for other things as well. So it whould be alright if slave-rushing whould be significantly stronger.

Wonders also seem to have a different gold-rush cost. Haven't they?

 

[Niveras]

Wonders also seem to have a different gold-rush cost. Haven't they?

I just checked to make sure, and it appears not to be the case, at least on marathon. I didn't bother checking other speeds just for that.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Normal:
Initial rush: 4.5
Initial -1: 3
Slave: 3

All things considered, I think this is pretty telling. Slaves are exactly equal to gold buy except in same turn purchases.

As for the discrepencies in balance in other speeds, I think this just has to be expected from the game, the speeds are not all designed equally, and this isn't even the biggest difference. (Quick game heal rates and movement speeds compared to tech rate and build rate are much more noticeable, and noticeable on every game you will ever play it on).

 

[Immaculate]

Yes. The cost of gold rushing actually varies a little bit, based on whether you have actually started production on the building. In any6 case, here are the relative costs based on game speeds:

Quick:
Initial rush: 4.5 gold per hammer
Initial -1: 3 gph
Slave: 5 gph

Normal:
Initial rush: 4.5
Initial -1: 3
Slave: 3

Epic
Initial rush: 9
Initial -1: 6
Slave: 2

Marathon
Initial rush: 9
Initial -1: 6
Slave: 1

Initial rush indicates you just started building the object, but do not have any hammers contributed to it. For instance, you just now set your build queue to start it. Initial -1 means you have more than 0 hammers attributed to the objects. The slave value should be pretty obvious.

Incidentally, a slave's production boost counts as hammers attributed to the building. So, you can start a building, buy and use a slave, then rush-buy the building at the 'discount' cost, versus what you'd have to pay if you had no production started on the building. Only really useful on normal, where using one slave saves you the extra cost, and also the time of buying tons of slaves to build the building. Might also apply on quick, if the building requires enough hammers to offset the cost of a slave.

Thank you Niveras. Thats was nice of you and very helpful for me.
I.

 

[volkmar]

thank you for further comments and the price comparisons was very helpful, making slaves identical to hurry production on other speed, it seem their main advantage is in Epic and Marathon speed then.

BTW, I also think it is a bit silly to be able to build towers like that but I understand how it came to be as otherwise it is a bit of a pointless feature as by the time you have all the mana, you prolly would win in anycase.

Still, I had lot of fun in making the Legend of the Shade Continent, I can only imagine the rumors going on in the other races about it and how people were welcomed to it with fireballs and ghosts.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

On any speed, gold rushing wonders the conventional way costs twice as much gold as a normal building of the same cost.