Sling for Civil Service or Theology?

[delra]

Let's start with raw data:

Civil Service:
+1 food from "fresh water" tiles. A real bomb if your cities have hills by a river side.
Chichen Itza - +50% Golden Age Length. Awesome on its own.
Pikemen. Whole new combat quality.

Theology:
Monastery, +2 culture from worked Wine or Incense. Pure luck if it's useful or not.
Garden, +25% great people generation. Awesomeness but you won't build it for a while.
Angkor Wat, -75% cost in culture of purchasing new tiles. Very useful early on to quicker expand on more valuable tiles without paying for them - allowing to spend cash on city states.
Hagia Sophia, +33% great people generation in all cities. Pile of awesome throughout the whole game.

Now, when you start and have enough space and time to sling (no Monty next door like in my last game), you can try for one of those to open Middle Ages for you.

If you go Calendar early on, while building Stonehenge you can get Writing and start constructing Great Library. Then you research Philosophy to grab Oracle after Great Library. And this is the point where the dilemma starts.

You can either sling right away for Theology with your Great Library - or double back, get Animal Husbandry and Trapping and sling yourself into Civil Service. This second sling is a bit risky high up in difficulty cause AI may try to steal Great Library from you making you a sore loser.

Theology later leads to Education, Acoustics and Navigation which are great uses of great scientists for another sling. Civil Service will give you Knights and soon after Markets, Mints and Banks.

I'd say bonuses from both are pretty balanced - and there are certain situations when one sling would be better than another (spawn by 3x silver supports early Mint...). But in general, over a large number of games, what's your preferred and more often picked choice of entering the Middle Ages? Theology or Civil Service sling?

 

[King Jason]

Personally my sling doesn't stop there, so I go with Theology. I rarely bother with farms anymore so the only benefit of Civil server is the Itza, which is fantastic and I try to get back to it.

I usually continue on up through Education to Acoustics via scientists and such, so for me, my pick is definitely Theology.

 

[iggymnrr]

CS for RA.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Wow, when you said slingshot I did not actually assume you mean the great library. I think you may be a bit optimistic in assuming you can get oracle, library and stonehenge. Even as Ramses.

That said, an even more solid path is to go for writing, so you can build a library and pop two scientists into it. Use the extra science to research philosophy, and then use the scientist to get civil service.

I'm not yet sure if the hard beeline for this is worth it, but it is definitely interesting. It only takes 17 turns for 2 scientists to turn into a great scientist.

 

[SeptimusOctopus]

I think it's situational. If there aren't any maritime city states around, then Civil Service is useful. Otherwise, I tend to prefer theology to continue on education to acoustics (I think that's the path not 100% sure) to unlock the renaissance SPs. It does feel a bit weaker to choose a less expensive tech if I'm getting it for free, but I still think it's worthwhile if I've got a cultural game going.

 

[pi-r8]

Both are overrated. BTW angkor wat description is wrong, it only applies to the city you build it in. Food is easy to get. Garden + Hagia Sophia is only 1, maybe 2 extra GP throughout the game.

 

[Nunya]

It also depends on the civilization you are playing. Civil Service is worth a lot more to Germany than it is to Greece for what really should be obvious reasons.

 

[dannythefool]

It's situational, if I have rivers I'll pick CS, if I have wine and I need culture, I'll pick theology...

 

[bhavv]

Wow, when you said slingshot I did not actually assume you mean the great library. I think you may be a bit optimistic in assuming you can get oracle, library and stonehenge. Even as Ramses.

I can get Stonehenge, Pyramids, Great Library, Oracle, Chichen Itza, Angkor Wat, Hagia Sophia and Porcelain Tower as Babylon without Marble on King difficulty.

Its easy, the AI sucks at production.

 

[Ahriman]

I can get Stonehenge, Pyramids, Great Library, Oracle, Chichen Itza, Angkor Wat, Hagia Sophia and Porcelain Tower as Babylon without Marble on King difficulty.

Its easy, the AI sucks at production.

Try Immortal, will all the AI advantages you will struggle to get any of the early wonders without getting rolled by a neighboring AI, or failing to found a second city.

 

[Dizzy75]

Getting GL on Immortal is a waste. If you're actually going to beat the AI to it, you're going to use it on a crappy 55 or 70 research tech, which means you would probably have been better off just building a Library first and throwing specialists into it. I'm not even sure it's possible in the first place.

Stonehenge definitely isn't possible, in my experience with 8+ AIs, because at least one of them will be beelining for it, which means they can build it before you even finish researching Calendar.

 

[terrycrist3]

I only sling Theology if I'm going for early Renaissance for policies (my first 2 great scientists get me education then acoustics). Otherwise, Civil Services seems better for the extra food and better military.

 

[Louis XXIV]

BTW angkor wat description is wrong, it only applies to the city you build it in.

I think that's a bug, otherwise it's very underpowered. Still, it's worth building just for the quote that comes with it

 

[Zechnophobe]

Honest truth? Honest? Production is more valuable than science in many cases. Look at the cost of the Great Library, compare it to the science cost of what tech you'll be getting. It is not that good of an investment over say, just building more libraries in your cities which will grant more in the not too long run.

 

[stormerne]

Theology over Civil Service for me. Look at this:

Acoustics (Freedom SP tree becomes available), which depends only on...

Education, which depends only on...

Theology (Patronage SP tree becomes available), which depends on both...

Calendar, (dependent on Pottery) and...
Philosophy (Piety SP tree becomes available), which depends only on...

Writing, which also depends on...
Pottery, which depends on...
Agriculture (Tradition SP tree already available)

This mostly single thread research path is immensely powerful. As well as all those Social Policy trees, it also unlocks the following:
Buildings: Opera House, University, Monastery, Garden, Temple, Library, Granary
Wonders: Sistine Chapel, Kremlin, Notre Dame, Porcelain Tower, Oxford University, Angkor Wat, Hagia Sophia, Oracle, National Epic, Great Library, National College, Stonehenge

It depends on context. For example, if you're playing for a military victory you wouldn't want any of this. No units for you! You'd want the Civil Service side of the tree. But if you're playing for a cultural victory, this beeline to Acoustics (of which Theology is part) gives you perhaps the strongest possible start.

 

[delra]

I did that long sling for Acoustics (and further) with Bybylon when I had an island for myself (Bowmen kind of helped achieve that own island part) and it was insane how much I outpaced Emperor AI. I need to try Immortal with it one of these days.

 

[Seek]

Getting GL on Immortal is a waste. If you're actually going to beat the AI to it, you're going to use it on a crappy 55 or 70 research tech ...

You can "shift-enter" to force end turn and save the free tech for CS or whatever you want after you backfill. Just be sure to have a tech queue set up before it's built.

(Props to whoever figured that one out - someone posted it a while ago)

 

[cembandit]

I found that it works better for me if I don't obsess about a sling. Getting balanced early techs seems to go farther most times. Now if a great scientist pops and a sling is within easy reach, then I might. I've been trying to reduce my dependence on city states in preparation for a nerf.

 

[bhavv]

Try Immortal, will all the AI advantages you will struggle to get any of the early wonders without getting rolled by a neighboring AI, or failing to found a second city.

I dont think that the thread mentioned difficulty, but as in Civ IV, wonderspam is only effective up to a certain level (probably king, maybe Emperor in Civ V).

After that, you would be likely better off using a library with specialists to pop a GS.

 

[Spark026]

Civil Service is very rarely possible even on King difficulty, so I think we'd have to throw all diff lvls above King out for this question.

That said, unless your playing some weird map config where you might actually end up without a Maritime city-state, Theology is the way to go. If you have 2 Maritime city-states you shouldn't be building farms at all imo.