Slinger -> Arquebus

[Itherael]

I have been playing a lot of the khazad recently and was having some minor frustration with defensive units.

The Slinger. A typical, highly effective early game defender covering every city for little production cost.

The Arquebus. Exceptional end game defender and attacker.

The problem. With no longbowman unit and wanting to make good use of the "ingenuity" trait I struggle to defend mid game borders with many, many Slingers.

Finally reaching Arquebus tech and with a bit of luck finding gunpowder I move to upgrade my countless Slingers (-50% upgrade fee of course. Woop!)

Whats this?! Oh noes! Slingers cannot be upgraded to Arquebus at all, not even for an outlandish fee.

So I am left with the only option but to turn worldwide production of Arquebus on for a huge amount of turns to get my new defenders in place.

Anyway, just wondered what everyones opinions and tactics were regarding this?

 

[WarKirby]

If it's any consolation, I've just made this change in Fall Farther's internal version. It will be in 0.51. Thanks for the little observation

 

[Grey Fox]

I typically use melee units for both offense and defense with Khazad anyways.

Can't they upgrade to Crossbowmen though? (Are they still in the game? So long ago I played now heh)

 

[Itherael]

I typically use melee units for both offense and defense with Khazad anyways.

I must admit I have had good results using melee defenders with khazad, expecially SoK's.

Can't they upgrade to Crossbowmen though? (Are they still in the game? So long ago I played now heh)

Crossbow men are still around, but its a 4 max. Hardly enough to defend just over 20 cities.

 

[JonathanStrange]

I've not played the Khazad in ages - the last time was in the reign of Attacko the Mad (whose solution to every problem was "build axes") - but I didn't think the gap between slingers and arquebusiers was a major problem. Not being able to upgrade rock-throwers to firearms users seems appropriate because other than being missile troops, neither seemed to have reaonably plausible transferable skills. It was part of the Dwarf Way; I simply had to bridge the gap with the Dwarven weapon par excellence: a sharp dwarven axe

In the larger scheme of things that's what I like about playing different civs: accepting their strength and limitations. So Dwarves can't upgrade slingers to arquebusiers? My Ljosalfars can't even build 'em. I kind of like knowing that I have to come up with different remedies to offset enemies' strengths and abilities.

But I'm not anti-Dwarf intermediate weapon. Crossbows do seem like a possible Dwarven weapon being all mechanical, slow, and deadly. It also seem plausible that certain crossbowmen skills of aiming, volley fire, and formation would make them candidates for upgrades to firearm users.

A limit of 4 crossbowmen? Are they that effective? If I have 20 cities, the enemy should be concerned about defending their cities!

 

[Itherael]

My real lifesavers for mid game before I can get Arquebus has been the three dwarven heroes.

Maros is khazad only, starts with 6/12 strength, +50% city defence and uses bronze/iron/mithril.

Arthendain is Kilmorph religion only, starts with 9 strength, +20% defensive strike chance, medic II and is immune to disease.

Bambur comes with the arete research post Kilmorph. With strength 5, bronze/iron/mithril use and Enchantment I as his special he doesnt come across as an exceptional hero, but...

It is these three heroes together that make the khazad truely amazing. Play all three carefully using Maros and Arthendain's inherant defensive skills to hold any borders and Bamburs early ability to enhance melee weapons.

I still use Bambur as my army leader in late game to great effect, with plenty of ranks from the early game he is still a powerhouse and never to be underrated.

If Bambur falls, I switch to Maros for leading my armies and manage just fine with Arthendain in defence.

 

[zup]

Bambur never obsoletes if you let him butcher a lot early. He will have so much xp he can take high tier units one on one.

 

[Randolph]

Bambur can be good for the time you get him, but Maros is definitely on my list of heroes that are sent to their death ASAP so I can build the shrine of the champion.

I do think that overall the Kilmorph Hero lineup is my least favorite of the religious heroes. They're still really important units if you're going with Kilmorph, and Bambur coming early with an already juicy tech is a nice consolation price for not getting a mid-late game powerhouse like the other religions get.

Anyway, RE: Slingers, as others have said, just go with Melee and siege units to attack incoming enemy stacks. Sure, longbows can be nice, but IMO they're really more of a backup safely net rather than a comprehensive defensive solution anyway, you still need to destroy the enemy in the field, good city defenders just give you more time to get your forces to the area of conflict.

 

[WarKirby]

Maros is an excellent hero because of his ridiculous defense strength
The khazad are generally designed for having a small, well defended empire. By the time you get big enough to have 20 cities, you should be so powerful you don't need to care about protection, otherwise you're playing khazad wrong. Most Khazad empires stop around 5 cities, and focus on building up, not out. You need a lot of gold to achieve the maximum dwarven vaults, and the incredible production bonuses it brings.

 

[Nefelia]

Extra cities are a better production boost than an overflowing vault. I usually just gather enough gold not to suffer too severely from the negative happiness from my bare vault, and spend some time at 0% science once easy rexxing is no longer an option.

That said, the Khazad's weaknesses can easily be turned into strength: without the option of building Mages, the Khazad do not need to detour along the Arcane tech-line, and can focus entirely on an aggressive melee/seige path, easily crushing the surrounding civs that have to nurse and nurure their budding adepts.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I defend my cities with the warrior -> axeman -> champion line and ignore arquebusers as all civs except the Lanun (because boarding parties are ass.)

As the Khazad, do that, and treat blasting powder as simply a mine enhancing tech. 3 iron champions cost the same as 2 aquebusers. 3 iron champs should be about even with 2 arquebusers for effectiveness, and if you're Khazad running RoK there's no excuse to not have iron.

If you would go for blasting powder for defense, instead research to animal mastery, and rely on Myconids with their awesome spore ability to hold your borders alongside some champions. They're a national unit, but only a single one of them can really mess up an enemy stack with spore, and they're very very strong.

If I insisted on using arquebusers, I would do as you do and build em the hard way.

 

[WarKirby]

I defend my cities with the warrior -> axeman -> champion line and ignore arquebusers as all civs except the Lanun (because boarding parties are ass.)

As the Khazad, do that, and treat blasting powder as simply a mine enhancing tech. 3 iron champions cost the same as 2 aquebusers. 3 iron champs should be about even with 2 arquebusers for effectiveness, and if you're Khazad running RoK there's no excuse to not have iron.

I agree 10chars

98. Dwarven Defender UU for Khazad added (Champion) - has Heavy promotion and can learn City Garrison

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Originally Posted by Fall Farther 0.51 changelog
98. Dwarven Defender UU for Khazad added (Champion) - has Heavy promotion and can learn City Garrison

Ohhhhh dear. I... well, I suppose I should raise hell over that one on the FF forums instead of ranting about it here.

 

[Breez]

Bambur can be good for the time you get him, but Maros is definitely on my list of heroes that are sent to their death ASAP so I can build the shrine of the champion.

Okay I have played MANY games for FFH2, FF, Orbis, FF+, ect ect...

I have seen many references to the Shrine of the Champion, I assume it is something about resurrecting a dead hero, but I have never built or seen it. I really don't know what it does beyond wild guesses.

Can someone enlighten me please?

 

[Dumanios]

Well,I have never built the Shrine of the Champion as any civ because I like to keep my heroes alive.As for the Slingers,Whose idea was it to make Slingers stay Slingers instead of upgrading?

 

[Nor'easter]

Okay I have played MANY games for FFH2, FF, Orbis, FF+, ect ect...

I have seen many references to the Shrine of the Champion, I assume it is something about resurrecting a dead hero, but I have never built or seen it. I really don't know what it does beyond wild guesses.

Can someone enlighten me please?

It's a National Wonder that you can build after the death of your civ hero. It provides new units in its city one free promotion, if I remember correctly.

 

[Randolph]

Maros is an excellent hero because of his ridiculous defense strength
The khazad are generally designed for having a small, well defended empire. By the time you get big enough to have 20 cities, you should be so powerful you don't need to care about protection, otherwise you're playing khazad wrong. Most Khazad empires stop around 5 cities, and focus on building up, not out. You need a lot of gold to achieve the maximum dwarven vaults, and the incredible production bonuses it brings.

I'm not sure how the rest of your post supports the assertion that "Maros is an excellent hero"? Sure Ceteris Paribus he's great, as is any unit with the hero promotion, but compared with the Shrine of the Champion giving a large proportion of your units a free promotion, including your religious heroes if you play it right (I assume most people like me build a "military city" that starts with high production and get the heroic epic, command post if possible, etc, and builds a significant proportion of your total units)?

Also excellent compared to what other civ hero?

 

[heisenberg]

excellent compared to some other heroes also unlocked @ Iron Working...
Wilboman and our singing pirate comes to mind...

 

[Randolph]

Both the Illians and Lanun have a second hero, and both Guybruch and Wilbo have a stronger attack.

I might take Maros over Guybruch or Wilbo, but not if I wanted to do much offence, and I certainly wouldn't take him over Guy+black wind or Wilbo + The White Dragon

 

[smusebaer]

Bambur is the stongest early Hero, because he can enchant weapon. So I think it a good Idea, that Maros is a defenciv Hero. But to be hones, I don´t use him. Of course he is very good for hotspot defences, but when you have him, the strong aera of the dwarfs is gone and mages rule the world.