SM4 - The Great War

[TimBentley]

Got it. Playing now.

 

[TimBentley]

350(0): an extra shield in Salamanca for MW in one turn
an extra gold in ivory city

IBT: India, Zulu sign MA against Incas
As in every IBT, Inca and Zulu fight
mace redlines MW on mountain (1-0)
Salamanca MW->MW
Zulu start Leo's

330(1): kill a mace (2-0)

IBT: lose redlined MW on mountain (2-1)
mace retreats MW
Paris flips with 2 units inside
Niagara MW->MW
Great Lake cat->cat
France starts Sun Tzu's

310(2): kill pike to capture (that was a mistake) Paris (3-1)

IBT: Arabia, India sign MA against France
Ivory MW->MW
France starts Sun Tzu's
Ulundi builds Sun Tzu's

290(3): it takes 2 MW to kill a 2hp mace (4-2)
We now have trade routes with India, Zulu, and Arabia
I'd prefer ivory not to be demanded; buy currency from India for ivory, 11gpt, 369g

IBT: Salamanca MW->MW
Cherbourg cat->cat

270(4): kill spear by Marseilles (5-2)

IBT: Arabia, India sign MA against Inca
Allegheny temple->settler
Oil Springs settler->MW

250(5): army kills pike in Rheims losing ~2hp, kills pike going down to 2hp (7-2)

IBT: archer, mace kill MWs, mace retreats MW (7-4)
Niagara MW->MW
Marseilles flips to France

230(6): kill 2 archers, mace (10-4)

IBT: Inca get MGL
archer retreats MW
Salamanca MW->MW
Ivory MW->settler
Great Lake cat->cat

210(7): zzz

IBT: mace dies (11-4)
Paris flips
Flatbush MW->MW
Gimme horses cat->cat
Zulu starts Knights Templar

190(8): Marseilles is now Indian
it takes two MWs to kill spear and raze Paris (12-5), another settler on the way
kill two pikes, spear to raze Rheims (15-5)

IBT: Allegheny settler->MW
Inca start Knights Templar

170(9): kill settler pairs with pike, spear (17-5)

IBT: France, India sign peace
India, Inca sign peace
Salamanca MW->market
Niagara MW->MW

150(10): zzz

Notes: the settler can settle in place or 1 NW I suppose
I've left some military unmoved so you can send them where you wish
Lux tax is actually at 10% as opposed to screenshot

Here is the save.

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Just out of curiousity, how many cities do the Inca have left? How many cities does France have left?

 

[CommandoBob]

Got it for Turnset 12.

 

[CommandoBob]

Polytheism in 32 turns (8.1.1)
33 gold, +29 gpt

Salamanca (7) grows in 3, market in 10.
Niagara Falls (5) grows in 9, vMounted Warrior (vMW) in 4.
Grand River (3) grows in 7, library in 2.
Allegheny (4) grows in 3, vMW in 5.
Ivory City (6) grows in 6, settler in 1.
Cherbourg (2) grows in 8, catapult in 2.
Oil Springs (3) grows in 9, vMW in 5.
Flatbush (4) grows in 10, vMW in 6.
Gimme horses (2) grows in 8, catapult in 5.
Great Lake of the Fish (4) grows in 1, catapult in 2.

We have two horses.
We have one fur, one dye and one ivory.

Our Amry stands on unconnected furs in no man's land.

We have 10 cities, France has 8.

We can build a city where the settler stands, 2N of Cherbourg. The other settler can head towards France or claim the fur.

We have 10 cites.
We are making 1 settler, 1 market, 1 library, 4 vMWs and 3 catapult.
Will try to keep the core making Mounted Warriors and city improvements. The fringes will continue to make catapults.
Will plan to have only three non-military improvements in progress at one time.

We are strong compared to France; weak compared to everyone else.

We have 5 native workers and 19 slaves.

In the North East are some good city sites.

Cities in the North East 150 BC

The Pink Dot we can build this turn, in what is left of 150 BC.

The Blue Dot would be built in the middle of the turnset and is placed to claim a 2nd Fur. The only other visible unconnected luxuries are the Ivories by Ivory City. Right now, it seems better to have diversity and claim the monopoly at a later time.

The Green Dot is on a hill for defense.

The spacing on these three cities is pretty cautious. Each are one turn walking from another city, so we could shuffle reinforcements to them, if needed.

 

[CommandoBob]

I've played three turns but have internet issues at the house and wanted some advice before I moved on.

I have a trading question.

We have 137 gold and +34 gpt.

India has no gold.
India will sell Iron Working for 14 gpt and 137 gold.
India will sell Code of Laws for 25 gpt and 137 gold.
India will not sell Map Making.
India will sell Polytheism for 25 gpt and 137 gold.

India has the best deals, excepting France. France will trade all 4 techs to have peace, but we are at AW with France, so that is not going to happen.

We are the second richest, behind the Zulus (they have about 170 gold). I checked for trades so that our treasury would not draw unwanted attention from the AIs.

Trade/No Trade/Trade for which?

I have a tough time with Ancient Techs at lower levels, much less Deity. Don't want to make the wrong trade.

Edit
PS - I copied the save onto a floppy at home, but the new PC at work says that the disc needs to be formatted!

 

[Cyllus]

I'm in the same boat as you, this zero/minimal research strat is one I've only just begun to deal with. I'd have to see the save to comment at all on this. Depends if we know anybody who is missing a tech we could buy.

*EDIT*
Side note, make sure not to make any 20 turn deals with Inca if we are within 20 turns of eliminating France.

 

[CommandoBob]

0 0150 BC

(Left over moves from TimBentley's turns.)
Found Whiskey River 2N of Cherbourg, grows in 5, catapult in 20.
Fog-bust to the north of Whiskey River, just find more French borders.
​

[IBT]
Zulus and Incas swap kills on our northwest border.

Fog busting vMW is attacked by French Archer and Pike, wins both and promotes to Elite (2 of 2).

Ivory City settler -> settler, 8 turns.

1 0130 BC

Minor Skirmishes
vMW vs. vArcher, MW wins (3 of 3).
vMW vs. rArcher, MW is redlined but wins (4 of 4).
​

[IBT]
Zulus and Incas again swap kills, with the advantage going to the Incas.

Grand River library -> vMW, 6 turns.
Cherbourg catapult -> catapult, 7 turns.
Great Lake of the Fish catapult -> catapult, 4 turns. Next time, build library.

2 0110 BC

Minor Skirmishes
vMW vs. vMace, MW wins (5 of 5).
vMW vs. rArcher, MW wins and promotes to Elite (6 of 6).
​

[IBT]
Incas want to talk.
Incas want an MA vs. the Arabs and an ROP.
Too early to fight the Arabs, so we agree to an ROP, but no MA.
Incas accept the ROP.

The forests between Allegheny and Ivory City see many Incas and Zulus die.

3 0090 BC

Worker tasks and moves; settlers head towards Whiskey River.
Salamanca grows to 8.

We have a lot of cash. Only the Zulus are richer. That makes me nervous.

We have 137 gold, +34 gpt.
Talk to India. They are broke.
India will sell Iron Working for 14 gpt and 137 gold.
India will sell Code of Laws for 25 gpt and 137 gold.
India will not sell Map Making.
India will sell Polytheism for 25 gpt and 137 gold.

Talk to Arabia. They have 5 gold.
Arabs will sell Iron Working for 16 gpt and 137 gold.
Arabs will sell Code of Laws for 28 gpt and 137 gold.
Arabs will not sell Map Making.
Arabs will sell Polytheism for 29 gpt and 137 gold.

Talk to the Incas. They have 92 gold.
Incas will sell Iron Working for 16 gpt and 137 gold.
Incas will sell Code of Laws for 28 gpt and 137 gold.
Incas will not sell Map Making.
Incas will sell Polytheism for 28 gpt and 137 gold.
Incas are at war with France, Zululand and Arabia.

Talk to the Zulu. They have 156 gold.
Zulu will sell Iron Working for 16 gpt and 137 gold.
Zulu will sell Code of Laws for 29 gpt and 137 gold.
Zulu will not sell Map Making.
Zulu will sell Polytheism for 29 gpt and 137 gold.

Talk to France. They have 13 gold.
France will trade Iron Working, Code of Laws, Map Making, Polytheism, 6 gpt and 13 of 13 gold for peace.

Cannot remember if peace with France is acceptable. Save game to check.
We are AW with France. So, no deal.
​

[IBT]
And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[choxorn]

*EDIT*
Side note, make sure not to make any 20 turn deals with Inca if we are within 20 turns of eliminating France.

lurker's comment:
And you should probably avoid doing it with the Zulu. 2 reasons:

1. The Inca are at war with several civs. They are probably on the ropes. How many cities do they have left?
2. They are the Zulu!!!

 

[TimBentley]

To answer choxorn's earlier (and reduced recent) question, France has 8 cities and the Inca have 20 (they seem to be a bit inferior militarily but haven't seemed to lose cities).

Everybody's in the middle ages, so no help there. Come to think of it, we should get a coastal city and send a couple of curraghs out. We've got min research on polytheism, so let's not buy that. I don't see courthouses being useful for some time. Aqueducts on the other hand could be useful earlier than courthouses, so I'd go for iron working on the way to construction. While we don't need iron for units, an extra shield here or there would be a nice side benefit. It would be nice if we could sell iron to somebody. I hate to keep giving money to India but I see no better alternative.

 

[choxorn]

Then forget what I said. You will most surely beat France before the AI beats the Inca, unless someone has something up their sleeve.

 

[Smart]

Are we going for Monarchy because of always war? Then probably it would be better to buy Polytheism and then research/trade Monarchy - new goverment will give more advantage then aqueducts and they are less usefull in Despotism.

 

[CommandoBob]

Well, we are only AW vs. France. Once France is dead we pick on somebody else and we are at AW with them.

So, in this game, is Monarchy as appealing as in a 'normal' AW? Could we wage war in Republic and avoid war weariness by having only one foe at a time?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment: It is not impossible, but you need to expect tougher foes every now and then and the occasionnal war weariness. If you make it REALLY strong out of the first few wars, like with several 4-knights armies and everything rolls well, republic would be an interesting option, but if every new war is a struggle because of tech lag, you'll need the steadiness of monarchy.

So that leaves you with the option of gambling, playing safe or upholding the decision until you can no longer afford despotism OR once you can safely assess either. That latter time might never come before it's over, mind you... but the time when despotism is a thorn in your foot is pretty much already there.

 

[Smart]

I think that we must change our goverment twice - with Despotism "that time" will never come
Maybe in the late MA or in Industrial Ages, when we will have some Cavalry armies, we will be able to fight very fast without much loses and change our goverment again - to Republic, but now we need to go out from Despotism.

 

[adz106]

I agree that a government switch needs to be top priority. I think another big consideration for republic/monarchy needs to be the number of native luxuries we have our hands on. If we war smartly with 4-5 lux's I think we'll be ok with the size of our cities in republic. What kind of trade options do we have for ivory or our dyes? Three local luxuries with surplus this early in the game is pretty decent.

I'll second the curragh idea, we need to get more contacts so the tech costs start dropping otherwise we'll never catch up.

As far as keeping our trading rep clean and being careful I agree to an extent; however we are playing AW. We are no one's friends we are just using them till we kill them. Sometimes if you can cut a deal for a couple techs in gpt and then declare war on them it can slingshot you into tech parity if you take that money to a different civ. I've used this strategy where you let all your current deals runout so you have a ton of excess gpt. Only when you are close to catching up in tech in the late MA do I think this is a good idea. Civs will still sell techs for gold just not gpt, by that time we should have a good enough military that it won't be a problem to have money in the bank at all times. I think we should definitely use this strategy but not until we are closer to nationalism and espionage.

 

[Smart]

I don't think that we want to ruin our reputation by breaking gpt deal even if we can trade techs only for gold. It's just bad thing and not allowed in SGs, same with ROP rape and other exploits

 

[adz106]

I was not aware that was considered an exploit. Scratch that then!

 

[CommandoBob]

So, trade for Poly, learn Monarchy at 50 turns and try for a coastal city.

Right?

 

[ThERat]

any roster???